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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/29 23:50:15
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Humorless Arbite
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I've only just considered this ...
When Space Marines (in the fluff) drop-pod into a warzone it's generally because of one of two reasons;
Either the Enemy has Air Superiority and can deny Aerial insertions (barring the use of Thunderhawks/Storm Ravens) or because they need to get to the fight quickly.
In the first case where Aerial Insertions are out of the question - if the Space Marines fail to take out AA weaponry or clear the area for friendly aircraft they wouldn't be able to extract when necessary. Space Marines also try to avoid casualties and so basically my question is, why would they risk men and material at all on risky gambits such as drop-podding into zones where the enemy controls the airspace?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/29 23:59:33
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Space marines have never struck me as intelligent fighters given all the art work, weapons and stories I have heard. So they do it because they enjoy dying.
Any competent force would blow the majority of these pods out of the sky regardless of air superiority or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 00:25:19
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Dakka Veteran
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Because they're good at fighting and mostly win.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 00:30:12
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Swastakowey wrote:Space marines have never struck me as intelligent fighters given all the art work, weapons and stories I have heard. So they do it because they enjoy dying. Any competent force would blow the majority of these pods out of the sky regardless of air superiority or not. Other way around! All of it! The Drop Pods go down so fast thanks to the top thrusters that any AA tanks have no chance at all of hitting them (with the added perk of possibly even squishing some enemies on impact). Then, what Animus said follows, they get their air superiority and can waltz out to the next conquest while the IG to do the holding job. Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. They are not IG so clearly they are stupid and they suck.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 00:33:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 00:37:30
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Despite what the table top may imply having a dozens of Space Marines dropping in on one point is a pretty good guarantee that everything there will die. They are close assault troops without peer.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 00:54:45
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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The idea of dropping in when the enemy has superior air power/AA cover is that once you are done with them those problems will go away.
Land on top of AA positions, kill gunners within seconds of disembarking, problem solved! Once operation is finished, Thunderhawks may extract at their leisure.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 02:50:01
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Stalwart Space Marine
Kalamazoo, MI
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The average target for a drop pod assault may not have sufficent anti-air weaponry to seriously derail the effort. My sense is that there is little symmetrical warfare in the fluff-side of 40k.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 02:50:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 07:44:11
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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In the Scion 'dex, Marines attempt to drop pod into a very defended area, they die.
The Scions pull a Felix Burgermeister to avoid being detected on the radar and clear the space for the Marines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 08:19:57
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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In the Damnos Apocalypse supplement, it details one if Marneus Calgar's drop pod tactics; send in a load full of automated guns first, then send the troops afterwards. I forget the whole story right now, and I'm currently in work, but I'll check later how it says this tactic was done with the Necron anti-air in mind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 08:34:34
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Otto Weston wrote:I've only just considered this ...
When Space Marines (in the fluff) drop-pod into a warzone it's generally because of one of two reasons;
Either the Enemy has Air Superiority and can deny Aerial insertions (barring the use of Thunderhawks/Storm Ravens) or because they need to get to the fight quickly.
In the first case where Aerial Insertions are out of the question - if the Space Marines fail to take out AA weaponry or clear the area for friendly aircraft they wouldn't be able to extract when necessary. Space Marines also try to avoid casualties and so basically my question is, why would they risk men and material at all on risky gambits such as drop-podding into zones where the enemy controls the airspace?
Ah, I see your problem.
You're labouring under the misapprehension that Space Marines are capable of understanding the concept of "mission failed".
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 09:13:28
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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space marines don't lose. they either win, or they're all dead.
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*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 09:50:44
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Battleship Captain
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Bobthehero wrote:In the Scion 'dex, Marines attempt to drop pod into a very defended area, they die.
The Scions pull a Felix Burgermeister to avoid being detected on the radar and clear the space for the Marines.
Which is my biggest bugbear in that whole book.
I understand that interceptor weapons are allowed to fire on drop pods because game balance, but the whole point of drop pods is that they come in Waaaaaaaaaaay to fast for anyone to shoot down; if the astartes could deploy by Thawk, they would do - because it's not a one-way trip. In the stories, AA fire is next to useless against drop pods - and anything capable of shooting up drop pods would be able to murder the free-falling scions in droves.
But yes, generally drop pods are either used to 'punch through' anti-orbit defences in the hopes of them not being there afterwards, or else as a fast-reaction force; you may see a drop-pod force deployed to support friendlies in contact, or to attack a high-value target that scouts have identified before it can relocate.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 09:51:26
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 10:01:19
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 10:55:55
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Forgot the pre bombardment aspect. A battle barge or even a strike cruiser dropping pods could also lay down a rain opf macro cannon rounds able to devestate a huge area near landing zone.
And that's not counting other weapons.
Not so accurate but drop massive shells ernpugh timeano need to be perfect.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 11:31:33
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Sometimes, the objects needed to be taken are too important to be bombarded to bits from the orbit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 12:21:32
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Battleship Captain
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Indeed. That was actually the standard tactic for marine armies in Epic: armageddon - a "strafing run" with a strike cruiser on turn one, plastering an area with an orbital bombardment and then dropping 'planetfall' drop pods, thunderhawks and landing craft carrying armour into the hole blown in enemy lines.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 20:03:25
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Wing Commander
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locarno24 wrote: Bobthehero wrote:In the Scion 'dex, Marines attempt to drop pod into a very defended area, they die.
The Scions pull a Felix Burgermeister to avoid being detected on the radar and clear the space for the Marines.
Which is my biggest bugbear in that whole book.
I understand that interceptor weapons are allowed to fire on drop pods because game balance, but the whole point of drop pods is that they come in Waaaaaaaaaaay to fast for anyone to shoot down; if the astartes could deploy by Thawk, they would do - because it's not a one-way trip. In the stories, AA fire is next to useless against drop pods - and anything capable of shooting up drop pods would be able to murder the free-falling scions in droves.
But yes, generally drop pods are either used to 'punch through' anti-orbit defences in the hopes of them not being there afterwards, or else as a fast-reaction force; you may see a drop-pod force deployed to support friendlies in contact, or to attack a high-value target that scouts have identified before it can relocate.
An ICBM does not come in to fast to interdict, no reason a drop pod would either. It works because it's 'cool' to have airborne marines dropping on foes, not because there is any plausible explanation for it (at least the Mobile Infantry's pods deployed all manner of chaff, false power cells, raw material over kilometers of space to confuse targeting, and some still die coming in from ground fire). Same reason big stompy robots don't get messily annihilated by everything under the sun from 50+ miles away, we like them so we go with some form of plausible deniability.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/30 23:18:28
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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No, because Orks can runs for it and come back for anuvver go.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/31 04:49:29
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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And Dey Shall Knowz no Fing
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 09:28:09
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Maniac_nmt wrote:locarno24 wrote: Bobthehero wrote:In the Scion 'dex, Marines attempt to drop pod into a very defended area, they die.
The Scions pull a Felix Burgermeister to avoid being detected on the radar and clear the space for the Marines.
Which is my biggest bugbear in that whole book.
I understand that interceptor weapons are allowed to fire on drop pods because game balance, but the whole point of drop pods is that they come in Waaaaaaaaaaay to fast for anyone to shoot down; if the astartes could deploy by Thawk, they would do - because it's not a one-way trip. In the stories, AA fire is next to useless against drop pods - and anything capable of shooting up drop pods would be able to murder the free-falling scions in droves.
But yes, generally drop pods are either used to 'punch through' anti-orbit defences in the hopes of them not being there afterwards, or else as a fast-reaction force; you may see a drop-pod force deployed to support friendlies in contact, or to attack a high-value target that scouts have identified before it can relocate.
An ICBM does not come in to fast to interdict, no reason a drop pod would either. It works because it's 'cool' to have airborne marines dropping on foes, not because there is any plausible explanation for it (at least the Mobile Infantry's pods deployed all manner of chaff, false power cells, raw material over kilometers of space to confuse targeting, and some still die coming in from ground fire). Same reason big stompy robots don't get messily annihilated by everything under the sun from 50+ miles away, we like them so we go with some form of plausible deniability.
\
Actually drop pods would be coming down way the hell faster then any ICBM ever could unless it was launched from orbit. They burn in about as fast as meteors and don't brake until they're just ten thousand kilometers or so off the ground, and are firing the top thrusters as they come in so they're even going faster. Then they employ the space magic braking systems so everyone and the pod isn't turned into goo.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 14:00:04
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Wing Commander
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Wyzilla wrote:
Actually drop pods would be coming down way the hell faster then any ICBM ever could unless it was launched from orbit. They burn in about as fast as meteors and don't brake until they're just ten thousand kilometers or so off the ground, and are firing the top thrusters as they come in so they're even going faster. Then they employ the space magic braking systems so everyone and the pod isn't turned into goo.
Bunk, ICBMs come in, depending on the missile, between 12 to 30 times the speed of sound. This is in the range of meteors coming in through the atmosphere (lower end, but still in that realm).
Also, you aren't orbitally saturating the laser half a world a way when landing. Planetary defenses wouldn't have to be localized to the drop site. That's the trick, you aren't able to sneak up behind a tree or a mountain. About half the planet can aim at you and fire with nothing obscuring lines of fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 20:38:29
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Been Around the Block
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Drop Pods are for tactical insertion because Space Marines are highly trained and equipped special forces.
They use drop pods because they simply don't have the numbers to support attritional warfare. They are a scalpel, not a sledgehammer like the guard.
Other armies fight in a regular sense, but marines come in and destroy tactically vital points. They aim for the head.
Mobilising an army, when you're starting from orbit would be a nightmare. You'd have to put a landing party down to secure a drop zone, then start landing your troops and vehicles. Only then could you start engaging properly. OR, you can pod in most of your infantry, with vehicles (Thunderhawks I'm assuming) coming in behind very close to the enemy. Hell, you can drop them into a city, ready to go.
Say the enemy has created a defensive line, you invalidate it when you pod in behind. No artillery, airstrikes, minefields, choke points, blown bridges etc.
And if we're going to talk feasibility then there is no point in this discussion, its one of the least silly things in universe. The silliest being an energy shield 'focussing' and firing at the range of rail cannon technology.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 21:23:03
Subject: Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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The US has spent billions on a system that can only do it sometimes in test conditions, and probably not at all in real life. It's a lot harder than you seem to think.
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Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 22:21:24
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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yeah, in a fantasy setting 38k years in the future with composites much harder than diamond in play, something going only 30 times the speed of sound would probably be slow and like a tin can compared to a drop pod.
Also, in regards to the nuking AA from orbit before the pods drop and sometimes the area being too important to nuke... Well, you aren't going to stick priority target AA weapons on top of something you want to protect in that case for the very reason of, the AA will most likely be taken out.
Another possibility, just because most of the marines drop pod in on a position, doesn't mean that all of the marines do this. Scouts could already be on planet with demo charges, and for any installation too hard for them to storm themselves, that's what teleport homers are for.
Marines rarely storm a planet as the sole force, the planet may have a PDF with aircraft or they will most likely have at least some IG & Navy units in proximity to be cannon fodder for the AA units.
Finally, why storm the heavily defended facility off the bat when you can drop a techmarine down to a less defended connected facility who can just shut down all those pesky AA.
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My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 22:44:29
Subject: Re:Drop Pod Insertion - All or Nothing?
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Confessor Of Sins
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:Finally, why storm the heavily defended facility off the bat when you can drop a techmarine down to a less defended connected facility who can just shut down all those pesky AA.
Still, marines don't drop in just because they can. There has to be something they really want to hit. Sometimes it is a heavily defended fortress (Badab and Huron's renegades) where the losses are staggering, but it had to be done. Even if it's not a fortress they use drop pods only if it's too slow or inconvenient to do a conventional Thunderhawk landing. And in the 40K universe it usually works, at least for getting the marines there. .
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