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The Riptide I see as a major problem, it's a constant bugbear for many. Honestly, the thing most indicative to me personally about it is that since the current Tau codex came out, every Tau army I've seen on a table (much less just played against), has included at least one, regardless of if it's a 750pt game or a 2000pt game. I honestly cannot recall a single Tau army that I've seen on a table that hasn't included one.

That sort of ubiquity indicates an issue of some sort.

Yep, that the IA is absurdly powerful and should not exists in its current form.

If it's pie-plate was only NOVA, he would have been ok as a 10 point upgrade. but as long it can pie plate without NOVA, its absurd and negates all the riptide's weaknesses.

Well, it didn't help that the Riptide is yet another MC that should be a walker (Alongside Dreadknights, Wraithknights etc.).


Regardless, I read an interesting article about 40k recently, which seems appropriate to this discussion. Basically it pointed out that most armies tend to excel at something by ignoring rules, rather than building or capitalising on them.

As in, Tau aren't good at shooting because they have better BS than anyone else, but more because of their ability to ignore rules like Cover, Night Fighting, LoS etc.

SMs are good not because they have high Ld, but because they just ignore most morale mechanics. Their Drop Pods are good not because they're strong vehciles, but because they ignore most of the Deep Strike and Reserve rules.

I think the problem with this sort of thing is that it exacerbates the rock-paper-scissors problem. Most armies that rely on cover/terrain for protection are going to have a bad day against Tau, whilst any armies with a lot of morale-based effects have basically wasted points against marines.

TL/DR I think that there are perhaps too many 'rules that ignore other rules' around at the moment, but Tau certainly aren't the only offenders in that regard.

The other big issue is that it just can't be put down easily. A T6 W5 2+/5++sv model with FNP sitting there, or especially with a successful nova for a 3++ invul can take an absurd amount of firepower, all out of proportion with its cost, especially if there's some big terrain it can play hide-and-seek behind with its jet move. Often this amounts to just having to ignore it and letting it do its thing while you engage the stuff you can more realistically engage.

And yeah, that the Nova option for the Ion Accelerator is a relatively minor upgrade over the non-nova option (only necessary if you're engaging armor), means that most of the time it can either not bother with the roll, or put it to that 3++ invul.

That said, it does rely heavily on markerlight support to get the most out of its firepower, it's just really scary when it does get it

 vipoid wrote:
Well, it didn't help that the Riptide is yet another MC that should be a walker (Alongside Dreadknights, Wraithknights etc.).


Regardless, I read an interesting article about 40k recently, which seems appropriate to this discussion. Basically it pointed out that most armies tend to excel at something by ignoring rules, rather than building or capitalising on them.

As in, Tau aren't good at shooting because they have better BS than anyone else, but more because of their ability to ignore rules like Cover, Night Fighting, LoS etc.

SMs are good not because they have high Ld, but because they just ignore most morale mechanics. Their Drop Pods are good not because they're strong vehciles, but because they ignore most of the Deep Strike and Reserve rules.

I think the problem with this sort of thing is that it exacerbates the rock-paper-scissors problem. Most armies that rely on cover/terrain for protection are going to have a bad day against Tau, whilst any armies with a lot of morale-based effects have basically wasted points against marines.

TL/DR I think that there are perhaps too many 'rules that ignore other rules' around at the moment, but Tau certainly aren't the only offenders in that regard.

That's an excellent point.

 vipoid wrote:
Well, it didn't help that the Riptide is yet another MC that should be a walker (Alongside Dreadknights, Wraithknights etc.).


Regardless, I read an interesting article about 40k recently, which seems appropriate to this discussion. Basically it pointed out that most armies tend to excel at something by ignoring rules, rather than building or capitalising on them.

As in, Tau aren't good at shooting because they have better BS than anyone else, but more because of their ability to ignore rules like Cover, Night Fighting, LoS etc.

SMs are good not because they have high Ld, but because they just ignore most morale mechanics. Their Drop Pods are good not because they're strong vehciles, but because they ignore most of the Deep Strike and Reserve rules.

I think the problem with this sort of thing is that it exacerbates the rock-paper-scissors problem. Most armies that rely on cover/terrain for protection are going to have a bad day against Tau, whilst any armies with a lot of morale-based effects have basically wasted points against marines.

TL/DR I think that there are perhaps too many 'rules that ignore other rules' around at the moment, but Tau certainly aren't the only offenders in that regard.

I feel like people have failed to be willing to change.

My Chaos Army added Mutilators and a Black Legion leader. Why? Becuase Dropping-in-to-say-hi Night Lords deal EXTREMELY well with Tau and Eldar Wavespam types of armies and are pretty good all around. I changed what I was doing a little bit and accepted that certain things in the game changed. subsequently my Chaos Force does not quiver in fear at the thought of four Riptides (and i am one who only uses two and probably wont use more but I know people with 4) and while annoying, it handles Wave spam.

Same for Dark Eldar. I moved to a melee based Dark eldar army because it makes SENSE to. Here again, i can shatter all the enemy hulls in round 2 without using the Dark Lances others rely on and with considerable armed force in the enemies face afterwards. It happens that this kind of army is also good all around. So no loss against other armies, but particularly good against the poor Tau and Wavespam forces that rely on shenanigans.

My Tau force changed to deal with the same things. And its good against everything. I had to change and I did. But in the case of Tau I had to change BOTH to be able to face Tau Empire and Eldar Wave spam, but ALSO to account for hos OTHER PEOPLE counter ME. And because I did, Im successful. But the FAST Instant Death weapon delivery that enemies can bring through Dark eldar, Grey KNights, Space Mariens and other armies are no joke.

My point in all this is, there are changes that can be made to make these armies less a bugbear or not one at all. I wont lie. Might cost a few bucks if you're not already equipped for it. Cant lie about that. But a majority of forces can undergo farely nominal changes to account for it and trading is almost always possible. My Night Lords cost me $54 worth of Mutilators and a couple trades to modify. The Dark eldar force cost me about $100 (over the course of a couple months) to modify to the new way of thinking and the rest in trades. And now my army is ready for anyone.

I get a little bit annoyed because we really haven't seen a TRUE broken Dex since 5th edition Blood angels and even that codex probably would have been borderline-OK if not for Mephiston. Still, it is what it is. Some people will struggle against certain armies if they are not willing to alter course. My Militarum Tempestus Force is a good example of a force that is morphing as we speak to try and compete because Necron Bakeries and Air Forces in general are beating me. So Three allied Hydras later, I'm feeling better about my chances and games are starting to look a LOT more even.

I agree with vipoid that the rock-paper-scissors problem is exacberated, and it can make you feel a little deflated if a lot of how your army works is simply ignored. Tau are pretty annoying in this regard, hence why they get hated on. Since the 7th ed allies matrix they aren't nearly as bad as the weaknesses in the codex are more exposed, but I still think they're pretty good.

I'll just finish by saying the Puretide chip is stupidly good for 15 points, it's one of the most undercosted things in the game.

Ive never used it. It's really good but to get the most out of it you kinda gotta' use it on a fairly bloated unit. BUT... it is so so good on a bloated unit!

The points get tight if, as a Tau player, you are both trying to adjust to the new armies and their defenses s well as defending against how people are playing against you.

SPEED. Enemies that have it invariably do well against Tau empire forces do you agree?

 Jancoran wrote:

I feel like people have failed to be willing to change.

My Chaos Army added Mutilators and a Black Legion leader. Why? Becuase Dropping-in-to-say-hi Night Lords deal EXTREMELY well with Tau and Eldar Wavespam types of armies and are pretty good all around. I changed what I was doing a little bit and accepted that certain things in the game changed. subsequently my Chaos Force does not quiver in fear at the thought of four Riptides (and i am one who only uses two and probably wont use more but I know people with 4) and while annoying, it handles Wave spam.

Same for Dark Eldar. I moved to a melee based Dark eldar army because it makes SENSE to. Here again, i can shatter all the enemy hulls in round 2 without using the Dark Lances others rely on and with considerable armed force in the enemies face afterwards. It happens that this kind of army is also good all around. So no loss against other armies, but particularly good against the poor Tau and Wavespam forces that rely on shenanigans.

My Tau force changed to deal with the same things. And its good against everything. I had to change and I did. But in the case of Tau I had to change BOTH to be able to face Tau Empire and Eldar Wave spam, but ALSO to account for hos OTHER PEOPLE counter ME. And because I did, Im successful. But the FAST Instant Death weapon delivery that enemies can bring through Dark eldar, Grey KNights, Space Mariens and other armies are no joke.

My point in all this is, there are changes that can be made to make these armies less a bugbear or not one at all. I wont lie. Might cost a few bucks if you're not already equipped for it. Cant lie about that. But a majority of forces can undergo farely nominal changes to account for it and trading is almost always possible. My Night Lords cost me $54 worth of Mutilators and a couple trades to modify. The Dark eldar force cost me about $100 (over the course of a couple months) to modify to the new way of thinking and the rest in trades. And now my army is ready for anyone.

I get a little bit annoyed because we really haven't seen a TRUE broken Dex since 5th edition Blood angels and even that codex probably would have been borderline-OK if not for Mephiston. Still, it is what it is. Some people will struggle against certain armies if they are not willing to alter course. My Militarum Tempestus Force is a good example of a force that is morphing as we speak to try and compete because Necron Bakeries and Air Forces in general are beating me. So Three allied Hydras later, I'm feeling better about my chances and games are starting to look a LOT more even.

Sorry, but I'm really confused as to how this relates to my post.

 Jancoran wrote:

SPEED. Enemies that have it invariably do well against Tau empire forces do you agree?

Nope.

First, because "tau empire forces" come in multiple flavors, so there is no one solution to catch all, just like there is no one solution to all IG or one solution to all CSM.

Second, because speed does nothing on its own, you need to actually do something with said speed.


What I find the most problametic for me, personally, is when the enemy hits me all at once, across the table.
If he comes in "waves" I usually turn him into minced meat.


When I got a single target at a time, no matter how powerful or fast it is-its going down. when I need to handle a large number or medicore units, that's when I begin to have trouble, as my supporting fire and markerlights simply do not handle multiple units, and they hold much of my offensive and counter-assault power.

My way of Tau Warfare is to bring waves in. Ironic.

Well I don't know what to tell you then. If you cannot agree that speed is the real enemy of Tau, then I think that you have not played AS Tau as often as you should. =)

Because since time began, nothing kills Tau dead like an enemy that the Tau Empire simply cannot whittle fast enough. Tau Firepower is good, but not unlimited and given only ONE round to bring it to bear before massive casualties ensue, the Tau Empire REALLY better have a good plan B.

My army is really built AROUND Plan B becasue there are in fact EXACTLY these sorts of armies out there and they KNOW the achilles heel well.

The original post regarded the number of rules and all that being too great as a REASON not to like them but I think thats sour grapes as work. The weight of them really is kind of irrelevant because a dead Fire Warrior doesnt get any rules and if you're fast enough you wont experience "rules overload" for very long. If you're slow and unwilling to recognize the value of speed, then i get why someone would suddenly become frustrated by the sheer volume of times they are ALLOWING themselves to be affected by rules.

I'm playing ONLY with tau (and once in a blue moon borrow/proxy another army)

So not possible to be "not enough tau"

My point was not that speed is not good though, it was that speed is not enough if you are alone.

I had land raiders hit my deployment zone turn 1, its didnt matter, a lone land raider is dead, along with everyone inside. because there is only 1 to deal with.

I'd much rather deal with one super strong, super fast unit, than a large number of decent units. and that's why I think people so hate tau, they bring out superunits who we excel at removing, and completely ignore the medicore options who, against us, are just as good because "they get beaten by superior, pricier units"
Well yea, sternguard out-do tacticals, but when the much cheaper tacticals do ENOUGH and can take just as much punishment-they are the bigger issue,

How bout all fast units.

SGTPozy wrote:
AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

Guardsmen are squishier than Tau with shittier guns. Ignores cover on a BS:3 Lasgun? Wow, such cheese.

 vipoid wrote:

TL/DR I think that there are perhaps too many 'rules that ignore other rules' around at the moment, but Tau certainly aren't the only offenders in that regard.

Definitely true.

It also makes some units seem totally cheesy, as ignoring rules feels like that.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

Guardsmen are squishier than Tau with shittier guns. Ignores cover on a BS:3 Lasgun? Wow, such cheese.

Dont forget the FNP 6+, Double taps, lesser battle focus, stubborn all in bubble form, Being able to 3" back peddle after over watching, ignoring LOS with a shooting attack (SMS), Having Charge range, Increasing range on basic equipment. over watching with a vehicle, Handing out DT like no ones business besides necorns. im sure iv missed a few.

 BoomWolf wrote:

I'd much rather deal with one super strong, super fast unit, than a large number of decent units. and that's why I think people so hate tau, they bring out superunits who we excel at removing, and completely ignore the medicore options who, against us, are just as good because "they get beaten by superior, pricier units"

I think a lot of players are still stuck in an IoM deathstar mindset.

Even competitive AM players field armies with barely a hundred models.

They made that more difficult by increasing the price of command squads and the Chimera, on top of nerfing/removing some of the cheaper tank options (hydra, medusa, etc) while decreasing the cost of Vets and Leman Russ tanks, and leaving a lot of the "horde" units ovepriced and/or overly easy to removed (e.g. heavy weapons squads) or without much of a purpose (e.g. conscripts, why bother when you have infantry squad blobs?)

 Desubot wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

Guardsmen are squishier than Tau with shittier guns. Ignores cover on a BS:3 Lasgun? Wow, such cheese.

Dont forget the FNP 6+, Double taps, lesser battle focus, stubborn all in bubble form, Being able to 3" back peddle after over watching, ignoring LOS with a shooting attack (SMS), Having Charge range, Increasing range on basic equipment. over watching with a vehicle, Handing out DT like no ones business besides necorns. im sure iv missed a few.

6+ FNP comes from ethreal, a guardsman-durability HQ choice that grants victory points for killing, hardly OP. (seriusly, he's T3, 2W with no save at all, not even sub-flak armor)
Stubborn bubble is from said ethreal too, can't have both at once.
"Double taps" (did you mean triple? everyone has double) again using said ethereal, another conflicting choice.
Lesser battle focus-same unit, conflicting again.
So, yea. a list of options that are nice, but come on a super-fragile body, and practically the only unit in the game giving victory points to the enemy. hardly overpowering.

Back paddle-one named HQ that nobody in a sane mind will take to a serius game because he is overpriced as hell.

Ignoring LOS with a shooting attack (SMS)-you mean like TFC does? and whirlwinds? and wyvrerns? and basilisks? and medusa? and every single barrage gun in the game that tau does NOT have a counterpart?

Halving charge range-never heard of it. closest thing is the GWP that gives a -d3 to charge range, also available only to pathfinders (the most fragile per point unit in the game, its an 11 point guardsman-not a veteran, regular joe-with even lower CC stats) nobody ever takes that drone, nobody even CONSIDERS taking it. great that I got a useless mechanic. if crisis suits could get these-then we'd have an issue. but on PATHFINDERS? they fold faster than cultists anyway, you don't assault them because they just died to your basic guns.

Increasing range on basic equipment-again pathfinders only, the guys who REALLY don't want to be spending their time shooting their with basic fire and are used for the markerlights, if anything (pathfinders didnt make it to top tables even when taudar was a thing), again an upgrade nobody even bothers looking at because it sucks.

I have no idea what "handing out DT" is supposed to mean, dedicated transports? we got only one who is arguably the worst in the game.


I find it funny how half the things you listed as "tau getting all the rule braking" are things nobody even bothers to look at, because they are horrible or just placed at a unit that never wants it as opposed to others that do, and the other half are things that are medicore rule tweaks that fall short compared to other armies on the same subjects.


As for the "ignore cover on a BS3 lasgun" crack, yea that IS useless.
Its not useless when used on a vet squad wth 3 plasmas/meltas. btw, our infantry can't have special weapons in them, so sure-we got better base guns, but you got specials that we don't.
Or when used on scions with their hotshot guns (ap3)
Or any other of the REAL uses for that order.



I find it again and again staggering how people feel like tau get to brake all the rules, yet with the exception of ignoring cover and JSJ movements, every single thing tau has that is not a pointless gimmik nobody even uses-someone else has either an equivalent, or an outright superior version.
Sometimes EVERYONE has better, and still people complain that tau are "braking the rules" (stubborn from ethreal? really? can you point me to an army with LESS leadership ignoring/bypassing/migating mechanics outright flat better leadership to begin with?)

I mean, I'd expect with the fact that nearly every race has barrage guns, and many are FAR stronger, people will stop to think for a moment before complaining on the SMS.

Eh i though you where listing things that each army can do

Its something still :/

Also sorry the grav wave i meant didnt have range that was my bad.

the Dangerous terrain test from Farsight book. its just wargear and drone stuff (IIRC)

Not really stating that they break rules but there are alot of them that may or may not catch people by surprise.

Edit: And i still think the biggest offender is necrons for rules hording.

The big thing with Tau and Markerlight versus something like Orders is that Orders are a lot more finicky to get working. Orders are only available to two units, with only the full suite available to one. They're limited in how many you can give out per turn and units can only ever receive one. The receiving unit also has to be very close to the command squad. On top of that they've got to pass a leadership test, usually on 7 or 8 (with some things available to boost or reroll that). You also can't give orders to Vehicles.

Markerlights however, are available to every FoC slot and the overwhelmingly vast majority of units. Once something has been markerlighted, anything in the Tau army from any distance can make use of it for any of its abilities do can do so multiple times. They're just so much easier to use and much more universal in application than IG Orders are.

As for ignoring LoS, yes, other armies have it, just not as a basic secondary vehicle weapon, it's almost always restricted to Heavy Support units and crappy IG mortars

Im a fairly new guard player and when i've played vs tau i got wooped. It might be due to my inexperience/build, but i got heavily outgunned. My biggest frustrations were:

1) solo deepstriking suits with melta weapons
2) large volumes of twin linked shots
3) Tetras in general
4) ignores los missles in huge quantities

I've got a target set now though. My goal is to build an allcomers list that can handle tau. I've been (and continue) to research their rules and strategy. It just seems like a difficult task to do without having to sacrifice objective grabbing or heavily modifying my list to countrr tau.

Same as orders have limited range to the user and require an LD test (being "not wildly available is a joke, given that TROOPS can get them, and that you can take multiple FOCS to spam the CCS if you want)
The markerlights require a direct line of sight and range to the targets (that orders do not), and requires to-hit roll for each mark (that can be made very difficult to get meaningful marks by killing the fragile marker units, forcing them to GTG, making them fail a moral test, even moving in the case of some...)

Also, they are far from "available to every FoC slot and the overwhelmingly vast majority of units"
HQ can get controlled drones, who are far from cheap.
Elites can only get decent drones with an attached HQ
Troops can only get decent marks if you are enclaves, again through attached HQ.
HS only has the skyray, who is far from efficient at actually marking. (or again, attached HQs to suit teams with drones)

Only FA slot has decent, independent marker units.
Other slots are either requiring HQ babysitting (and not a cheap one at that), or provide minimal marks (like the skyray)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

Guardsmen are squishier than Tau with shittier guns. Ignores cover on a BS:3 Lasgun? Wow, such cheese.

Dont forget the FNP 6+, Double taps, lesser battle focus, stubborn all in bubble form, Being able to 3" back peddle after over watching, ignoring LOS with a shooting attack (SMS), Having Charge range, Increasing range on basic equipment. over watching with a vehicle, Handing out DT like no ones business besides necorns. im sure iv missed a few.

6+ FNP comes from ethreal, a guardsman-durability HQ choice that grants victory points for killing, hardly OP. (seriusly, he's T3, 2W with no save at all, not even sub-flak armor)
Stubborn bubble is from said ethreal too, can't have both at once.
"Double taps" (did you mean triple? everyone has double) again using said ethereal, another conflicting choice.
Lesser battle focus-same unit, conflicting again.
So, yea. a list of options that are nice, but come on a super-fragile body, and practically the only unit in the game giving victory points to the enemy. hardly overpowering.

Back paddle-one named HQ that nobody in a sane mind will take to a serius game because he is overpriced as hell.

Ignoring LOS with a shooting attack (SMS)-you mean like TFC does? and whirlwinds? and wyvrerns? and basilisks? and medusa? and every single barrage gun in the game that tau does NOT have a counterpart?

Halving charge range-never heard of it. closest thing is the GWP that gives a -d3 to charge range, also available only to pathfinders (the most fragile per point unit in the game, its an 11 point guardsman-not a veteran, regular joe-with even lower CC stats) nobody ever takes that drone, nobody even CONSIDERS taking it. great that I got a useless mechanic. if crisis suits could get these-then we'd have an issue. but on PATHFINDERS? they fold faster than cultists anyway, you don't assault them because they just died to your basic guns.

Increasing range on basic equipment-again pathfinders only, the guys who REALLY don't want to be spending their time shooting their with basic fire and are used for the markerlights, if anything (pathfinders didnt make it to top tables even when taudar was a thing), again an upgrade nobody even bothers looking at because it sucks.

I have no idea what "handing out DT" is supposed to mean, dedicated transports? we got only one who is arguably the worst in the game.


I find it funny how half the things you listed as "tau getting all the rule braking" are things nobody even bothers to look at, because they are horrible or just placed at a unit that never wants it as opposed to others that do, and the other half are things that are medicore rule tweaks that fall short compared to other armies on the same subjects.


As for the "ignore cover on a BS3 lasgun" crack, yea that IS useless.
Its not useless when used on a vet squad wth 3 plasmas/meltas. btw, our infantry can't have special weapons in them, so sure-we got better base guns, but you got specials that we don't.
Or when used on scions with their hotshot guns (ap3)
Or any other of the REAL uses for that order.



I find it again and again staggering how people feel like tau get to brake all the rules, yet with the exception of ignoring cover and JSJ movements, every single thing tau has that is not a pointless gimmik nobody even uses-someone else has either an equivalent, or an outright superior version.
Sometimes EVERYONE has better, and still people complain that tau are "braking the rules" (stubborn from ethreal? really? can you point me to an army with LESS leadership ignoring/bypassing/migating mechanics outright flat better leadership to begin with?)

I mean, I'd expect with the fact that nearly every race has barrage guns, and many are FAR stronger, people will stop to think for a moment before complaining on the SMS.

To give out orders to a vet Squad in a Chimera you have to keep your Chimeras in formation making it easier for them to be destroyed. Besides that, for Vets to make full use of the order they have to get in real close to the enemy. Even then only two guns can fire.

The one and only good use I can find for the order is for jink ignoring goodness. Issue it to a Lascannon HWT and watch as they miss 2/3 shots and fail to even pen with the one Lascannon hit they managed. If you want to blow those skimmers up you need at least two HWT and a support officer to boost the LD of the HWT. Guard making full use of their ignore rule stuff isn't as easy or cost effective as Tau get it.

You cannot issue orders to infantry embarked on transports.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Same as orders have limited range to the user and require an LD test (being "not wildly available is a joke, given that TROOPS can get them, and that you can take multiple FOCS to spam the CCS if you want)
The markerlights require a direct line of sight and range to the targets (that orders do not), and requires to-hit roll for each mark (that can be made very difficult to get meaningful marks by killing the fragile marker units, forcing them to GTG, making them fail a moral test, even moving in the case of some...)

Also, they are far from "available to every FoC slot and the overwhelmingly vast majority of units"
HQ can get controlled drones, who are far from cheap.
Elites can only get decent drones with an attached HQ
Troops can only get decent marks if you are enclaves, again through attached HQ.
HS only has the skyray, who is far from efficient at actually marking. (or again, attached HQs to suit teams with drones)

Only FA slot has decent, independent marker units.
Other slots are either requiring HQ babysitting (and not a cheap one at that), or provide minimal marks (like the skyray)

That LD test is usually LD8 unless we pay points for Vox Caster networks, and it is always LD7 on HWS unless you take the extremely underwhelming Creed, and there is no voxcaster re-roll either.

And no, you're wrong again, orders aren't wildly available unless you're running a blob list; and even then, you need a CCS or Yarrick (who isn't efficient just being an order slave) to get the Senior Officer orders that cause the most damage. A CCS is not much harder to kill than a Pathfinder squad and still has to stay within 12'' of your deathblob - take a guess at what will happen to the 5 man GEQ unit making the blob twice as effective.

As I said before, in a mechanised list you will probably not have orders if you are trying to be competitive. Pask is almost mandatory in the competitive meta so the CCS will probably always come second. And when you add up the cost of having a half-size squad and vox caster network which may or may not come in use at all during the game, and that includes if the opponent has enough braincells to instantly destroy the Command Squad's chimera, strand them and make them useless or your mechanised advance slower, the end result is that you could have a Vet Squad and have saved about 30ish points, so you probably won't go for it.

You can't use orders on infantry embarked in vehicles, so you're forced to disembark the squishy humans to their deaths as soon as they're fired; just for one turn of improved firepower.

Mech Platoons are garbage and laughable - it costs 115 points for an infantry squad in a chimera with no upgrades, and 125 for a Vet squad in a chimera with no upgrades. The former has BS3 across the board and the latter has BS4 across the board, as well as triple special slots instead of just one. So you will never take a mechanised platoon and thus mechanised platoon command squad unless you're an idiot or playing for fluff.

Just a thought but is there any chance other codices don't have enough rules?

I started 40k last year and until now only played Tau. I just started a new army but trying to decide has been really hard. I chose Dark Eldar in the end based on aesthetics but trying to write mock TAC lists for armies while deciding was really tough.

Most armies don't have seem to have many options in regards to anti flyer, monsterous creature, Superheavy or deepstrike. Tau on the other hand can tailor their battlesuits to deal with any one of these tasks which is something other armies should be able to do IMO.

Taffy17 wrote:
Just a thought but is there any chance other codices don't have enough rules?

I started 40k last year and until now only played Tau. I just started a new army but trying to decide has been really hard. I chose Dark Eldar in the end based on aesthetics but trying to write mock TAC lists for armies while deciding was really tough.

Most armies don't have seem to have many options in regards to anti flyer, monsterous creature, Superheavy or deepstrike. Tau on the other hand can tailor their battlesuits to deal with any one of these tasks which is something other armies should be able to do IMO.

I'd suggest that this is not so much a problem with the codices (though the DE one is pretty awful in this regard), so much as the core rules being borked and prone to making the game even more rock-paper-scissors oriented.

e.g. The flier rules should never have been based around snapshots (it should have just been permanent 4+ cover, or somesuch). Things like that are a problem because they further split what weapons an army requires. i.e. as well as having to consider weapons that can take down light vehicles and heavy vehicles, you now also have to consider anti-vehicle weapons that can take down fliers.

Deep strike seems in dire need of a rewrite. There seem to be far too many units that just ignore most or all of the restrictions, and too many units that are hindered by being forced to actually follow them. To me it seems like it would be better to make the DS rules less harsh/restrictive, rather than just giving specific units the ability to ignore them, while less fortunate units are left to rot.

Wait, what was the topic again?

Taffy17 wrote:
Just a thought but is there any chance other codices don't have enough rules?

I started 40k last year and until now only played Tau. I just started a new army but trying to decide has been really hard. I chose Dark Eldar in the end based on aesthetics but trying to write mock TAC lists for armies while deciding was really tough.

DE could really do with some Ignores Cover, Twin-linked and Skyfire. The new codex has some flavourful stuff like Soulfright which would have been fun to play around with, but it doesn't even work on bloody Space Marines!

Well every time i came up with a theory on how i would smash my friends tau, he would always. ALWAYS have an answer.

His could just flick through his book and be like... "oh well i can just do this" every. god. damn. time.

So yes. I find him boring to play against as its basically like target priority. And he has the nerve to call other armies boring!!

I went with Dark eldar. Their models are gorgeous, and their rulebook is pretty fun, even if its not top tier.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Same as orders have limited range to the user and require an LD test (being "not wildly available is a joke, given that TROOPS can get them, and that you can take multiple FOCS to spam the CCS if you want)

The only troops that can get them are Infantry Platoons, not all troops, and they can't issue as many orders as the HQ. Likewise, if we're getting into multiple FoC spamming, nothing is stopping Tau from doing the same

The markerlights require a direct line of sight and range to the targets (that orders do not)

Functionally they do, as the only thing a unit that's been issued an order is going to shoot that won't require LoS is...mortars. The ones where neither range nor LoS is an issue don't involve shooting. The range to issue them is *very* limited.

and requires to-hit roll for each mark

Yup, that's the only weak point. They're far less situational as a result.

(that can be made very difficult to get meaningful marks by killing the fragile marker units, forcing them to GTG, making them fail a moral test, even moving in the case of some...)

Same thing with orders? Kill the fragile 5man T3 5+sv command squads, force them to go to ground, lock them in combat, force them to go to ground, etc.

Also, they are far from "available to every FoC slot and the overwhelmingly vast majority of units"

Except hey are in fact available, even if only in limited numbers, to every FoC slot.

HQ can get controlled drones, who are far from cheap.

12pts drones? Not ultra cheap, but not bank breaking either.

Elites can only get decent drones with an attached HQ

XV8's can take marker drones and Stealth Teams can take a markerlight with target lock for very cheap on a squad leader.

Troops can only get decent marks if you are enclaves, again through attached HQ.

They can take markerlight drones if you take a squad leader (to have something better than Ld7) and the squad leader can take a markerlight and target lock (not cheap, but is available).

HS only has the skyray, who is far from efficient at actually marking. (or again, attached HQs to suit teams with drones)

Broadsides can take the drones option like Fire Warriors can.

Not saying they're ultra efficient in every FoC slot, but they are more available than you're making them out to be.