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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

No, I'm having trouble even reaching them with my 10 (and rapidly dwindling) krak grenades.

Try reading the rest of your codex then.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

No, I'm having trouble even reaching them with my 10 (and rapidly dwindling) krak grenades.

Try reading the rest of your codex then.

The WS is a Fast Skimmer, if it doesn't want to get assaulted it doesn't have to try very hard

the_scotsman wrote:
The next time I face off against nine wave serpents, I'll just remember the counter strategy: I'll use my SM sergeant with a powerfist to kill them.

Done and done.

That's quite easy since power fists have 60' range.

Bharring wrote:
Then, there is the rest of the squad. A naked 6-man tac squad will drop a serpent on average, if it gets to charge.

Really?
6 attacks. 4/6 hits, so 4 hits. 50% results so we'll go with 2 pens.

How is that "dropping" a serpent on average? Or did you forget that grenades can only ever get one attack in CC?

edit: And that's assuming they actually get to charge. Dear god how bad do you have to be to have a vehicle that ignores terrain and moves 12+"/turn and let it get assaulted?

Because I suck at math.

2/3 hit
1/2 hurt
------
1/3 HP/marine

9 Marines in 1 round with no special weapons.

Although with a pen or two from 6 marines, it's not likely to do too much.

Even if just firing snapshots, if equipped with a scatterlaser, between that and the shield (to simplify things we'll ignore any shuriken weapons), it's still on average landing nearly as many shots on target (at higher average Strength) as a fully functional Chimera with two Heavy 3 guns.

The real problem is did anyone think that over all the years of the previous codex releases, were they in any way needing a power-boost? I could care less how overpowered they are at the moment, I just want some of what the developers at GW are smoking.

On the fence. The main reason for the accusations of broken-ness only works in one mode at a time, and by and large they're still pretty frail. I'm just fine with them. That being said, I've never seen them spammed like crazy, so that could change my opinion.

ThatSwellFella wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I've played Eldar a lot so trust me, I know - Wave Serpents are not OP. They are just one of 40ks excellent units, but there are plenty of excellent units so they are no OP. Sure, they might be better than every single model available to every single army in 40k except for maybe 1, and can be taken in triple the number of most standard units, but hey, at the end of the day, what does overpowered really mean? Its not about winning games it's just that they are really easy to stomp noobs with like most posters on Dakka, high level wave serpent play takes a lot of skill and decision making or Eldar is almost guaranteed to lose, LOL jimsolo your credibility just got revoked you all have goldfish memories talk to me when you realise how 40k works on a competitive level, dude your codex just sucks, wow you think Dark Eldar need a buff to Haywire now LOL keep whining, I have a bunch of stats backing up my claim that Eldar isn't OP with only a 60% overall win rate in 6th ed tournaments which only makes them the highest by like 5%, just because you haven't learnt how to beat serpents does not make them OP, shuppet I'm not responding in this thread again until you learn how to discuss competitive 40k, have you ever even been to a tournament?

i know how to beat them: use ignores cover weapons, like legion of the dammed, bring a knife to a gunfight and deep strike something into it's rear. And yet every single game, i or any of my buddies play vs eldar, no one can bring those theories to fruition since eldar player (usually) isn't mentally handicapped person to allow that to happen

Yeah my post is satire and basically just me repeating a string of difference statements ive seen morgoth make recently

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The real problem is did anyone think that over all the years of the previous codex releases, were they in any way needing a power-boost? I could care less how overpowered they are at the moment, I just want some of what the developers at GW are smoking.

I think, in many ways, they constantly operate two editions behind. In 4E, when the last book was released, the Falcon was the unkillable-invinci-skimmer of doom (requiring an average of ~81 BS4 Lascannon shots to bring down). Well, the core rules largely fixed that by itself. The problem with the Wave Serpent before was just that it was a bit expensive in 5E (not really in 4E). when they redid Eldar in 6E, instead of just cutting its cost down, they decided to resurrect some rule from Epic ages ago (when it wasn't a transport) and give it the mega-range-ignores-cover shield cannon thingy.

Possibly something of an aside, but it seems like Skimmers in general have too many advantages over Tracked vehicles.

There's the speed/mobility aspect, obviously, but it seems reasonable to expect them to have to sacrifice something in exchange. However, I really struggle to think of any advantages that Tracked transports have over skimmers:

- Firepower? Well, the WS alone basically blows this one right out of the water. But, even leaving that one out, many other Skimmers can still put out a good deal of firepower. The Necron Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers, Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at long range.

- Transport Capacity? Nope. Both the WS and the Devilfish have 12 capacity (which is actually more than most tracked transports), while others are equal to Rhinos in capacity.

- Durability? Personally, this is where I'd expect tracked transports to excel. I mean, surely being slower and grounded means you can invest more in armour, right? Nope. In fact, skimmers tend to be considerably more durable than their land-based counterparts. Compare the Devilfish or WS to a Rhino or Chimera. It has better front armour than the former and better side armour than the latter. And, the WS is more heavily armoured still. Necron Skimmers, meanwhile, have a wopping AV13 on their front and sides. And, even if that shield is taken down, they still have the same front and side armour as a Rhino or Razorback, but better rear armour. I think the only skimmers that actually seem fragile are DE ones. In any case, on top of frequently having more armour, Skimmers also have the ability to jink - giving them a 4+ (at least) cover save, even in the open. Yes, it means sacrificing firepower, but it's entirely optional and remains a survival ability that Tracked transports simply don't have.


I don't know, I guess I'd just expect skimmers to lose out in at least one of these areas. Am I looking at this wrong?

 vipoid wrote:
I don't know, I guess I'd just expect skimmers to lose out in at least one of these areas. Am I looking at this wrong?

The drawback is suppose to be that it costs more points. Such as if a rhino costs x points, a rhino that is also a skimmer would cost x+y points.

The problem with the wave serpents isn't that they are excellent at everything you want in a vehicle (that being durability, damage output, and mobility). Its that they are excellent at everything and are undercosted for it. As an example if the wave serpent costs 500 pts it would be terrible, where as if you picked an awful unit like pyrovores or warp talons and made them worth 1 point they would be broken. In the end it all comes down to point costs.

Indeed Skimmers do have marked advantages over tracked vehicles.

GW seems obssessed with ensuring Skimmers are markedly superior to tracked tanks. 5th was the only exception where they were largely balanced (at least in the core rules).

Skimmers have routinely been far more durable than their apparently sturdier ground bound counterparts.

Another point to add to Vipoid's is that the only cover mechanism tracked tanks and walkers have for cover (aside from intervening terrain/models) is Smoke Launchers. These are single use, prevent *all* firing (including embarked passengers), cannot be used if you move flat out, and are only a 5+ cover save. Not all tanks and walkers come with this either, some have to buy it.

Skimmers can choose to Jink whenever they are shot at for a 4+ cover save (and almost ubiquitously have access to wargear that can enhance that to a 3+) without regards to moving flat out, can do so even if immobilized, and without any effect whatsoever on embarked passengers.

It's not even transports you have to look at, compare most tracked gun-tanks to skimmer equivalents and it becomes instantly apparent that the skimmer equivalent is typically superior for these reasons, even when they cost roughly the same and have similar armor.

EDIT: also, Skimmers get bonus Flat Out movement if they're Fast, tracked ones do not. Fast also tends to be very rare amongst Tracked tanks while more Skimmers are Fast than not.

Fun fact about the cost of a WS is that if you take the same points buy a rhino and a predator, you get less fire power , slower movment and no where near the vunerability a WS has.

 vipoid wrote:
Possibly something of an aside, but it seems like Skimmers in general have too many advantages over Tracked vehicles.

There's the speed/mobility aspect, obviously, but it seems reasonable to expect them to have to sacrifice something in exchange. However, I really struggle to think of any advantages that Tracked transports have over skimmers:

- Firepower? Well, the WS alone basically blows this one right out of the water. But, even leaving that one out, many other Skimmers can still put out a good deal of firepower. The Necron Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers, Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at long range.

- Transport Capacity? Nope. Both the WS and the Devilfish have 12 capacity (which is actually more than most tracked transports), while others are equal to Rhinos in capacity.

- Durability? Personally, this is where I'd expect tracked transports to excel. I mean, surely being slower and grounded means you can invest more in armour, right? Nope. In fact, skimmers tend to be considerably more durable than their land-based counterparts. Compare the Devilfish or WS to a Rhino or Chimera. It has better front armour than the former and better side armour than the latter. And, the WS is more heavily armoured still. Necron Skimmers, meanwhile, have a wopping AV13 on their front and sides. And, even if that shield is taken down, they still have the same front and side armour as a Rhino or Razorback, but better rear armour. I think the only skimmers that actually seem fragile are DE ones. In any case, on top of frequently having more armour, Skimmers also have the ability to jink - giving them a 4+ (at least) cover save, even in the open. Yes, it means sacrificing firepower, but it's entirely optional and remains a survival ability that Tracked transports simply don't have.




I don't know, I guess I'd just expect skimmers to lose out in at least one of these areas. Am I looking at this wrong?

....yes. In that I get THREE rhinos for a ghost ark, and almost four for a WS. (Not saying ws isn't stupid here, btw.)

A better comparison would be something like Raider vs Chimera. Equal points cost. Chimera has 12 front armor and is closed-topped, and I find on average Multilaser+HB will fare better than Lance.

So, durability+firepower in that instance.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

No, I'm having trouble even reaching them with my 10 (and rapidly dwindling) krak grenades.

Try reading the rest of your codex then.

The WS is a Fast Skimmer, if it doesn't want to get assaulted it doesn't have to try very hard

And my reply was specifically ignoring all other units in the Codex because you claimed that any player worth their salt should be able to assault a Wave Serpent with Tactical Marines and then destroy it with krak grenades. That was all that I was referring to.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe relying on tac squads with krak grenades might not be the most...efficient means of dealing with WS's.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe relying on tac squads with krak grenades might not be the most...efficient means of dealing with WS's.

Lol. Phrased perfectly.

 vipoid wrote:
Possibly something of an aside, but it seems like Skimmers in general have too many advantages over Tracked vehicles.

There's the speed/mobility aspect, obviously, but it seems reasonable to expect them to have to sacrifice something in exchange. However, I really struggle to think of any advantages that Tracked transports have over skimmers:

- Firepower? Well, the WS alone basically blows this one right out of the water. But, even leaving that one out, many other Skimmers can still put out a good deal of firepower. The Necron Ghost Ark has 10 Gauss Flayers, Venoms can put out 12 poison shots at long range.

- Transport Capacity? Nope. Both the WS and the Devilfish have 12 capacity (which is actually more than most tracked transports), while others are equal to Rhinos in capacity.

- Durability? Personally, this is where I'd expect tracked transports to excel. I mean, surely being slower and grounded means you can invest more in armour, right? Nope. In fact, skimmers tend to be considerably more durable than their land-based counterparts. Compare the Devilfish or WS to a Rhino or Chimera. It has better front armour than the former and better side armour than the latter. And, the WS is more heavily armoured still. Necron Skimmers, meanwhile, have a wopping AV13 on their front and sides. And, even if that shield is taken down, they still have the same front and side armour as a Rhino or Razorback, but better rear armour. I think the only skimmers that actually seem fragile are DE ones. In any case, on top of frequently having more armour, Skimmers also have the ability to jink - giving them a 4+ (at least) cover save, even in the open. Yes, it means sacrificing firepower, but it's entirely optional and remains a survival ability that Tracked transports simply don't have.


I don't know, I guess I'd just expect skimmers to lose out in at least one of these areas. Am I looking at this wrong?

Bravo, Vipoid. Thank you for making an excellent post on every single that annoys me about skimmers. Have all my exalts.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Indeed Skimmers do have marked advantages over tracked vehicles.

GW seems obssessed with ensuring Skimmers are markedly superior to tracked tanks. 5th was the only exception where they were largely balanced (at least in the core rules).

Skimmers have routinely been far more durable than their apparently sturdier ground bound counterparts.

Another point to add to Vipoid's is that the only cover mechanism tracked tanks and walkers have for cover (aside from intervening terrain/models) is Smoke Launchers. These are single use, prevent *all* firing (including embarked passengers), cannot be used if you move flat out, and are only a 5+ cover save. Not all tanks and walkers come with this either, some have to buy it.

Skimmers can choose to Jink whenever they are shot at for a 4+ cover save (and almost ubiquitously have access to wargear that can enhance that to a 3+) without regards to moving flat out, can do so even if immobilized, and without any effect whatsoever on embarked passengers.

It's not even transports you have to look at, compare most tracked gun-tanks to skimmer equivalents and it becomes instantly apparent that the skimmer equivalent is typically superior for these reasons, even when they cost roughly the same and have similar armor.

EDIT: also, Skimmers get bonus Flat Out movement if they're Fast, tracked ones do not. Fast also tends to be very rare amongst Tracked tanks while more Skimmers are Fast than not.

Tracked tanks are generally played very statically and will benefit either from friendly troop / hull cover (5+) or ruin cover (4+).

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent, you get a Leman Russ that doesn't care about S7 and less and S5 and less in assault.

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent + Dire Avengers, you get a Land Raider that doesn't care about S7 and less in shooting or assault, has 4 HP and can shoot at two different targets.

All in all, for equivalent cover and price points, tracked tanks tend to be just as resilient as Skimmers, with skimmers having a harder time finding cover and a very costly Jink (66% of damage output for the next turn).

Moreover, their resilience is not just based on cover saves, which means they don't fall apart when ignores cover weaponry is used.



Of course, that doesn't prevent the Wave Serpent from being a top-tier unit, but it's important to not mistake the Jink ability for "durability" or "free cover save" because it's neither. It's a very expensive cover save, and adds absolutely no durability against assault or ignores cover.

I just don't understand the serpent shield.

morgoth wrote:

Tracked tanks are generally played very statically and will benefit either from friendly troop / hull cover (5+) or ruin cover (4+).

You can do the same with skimmers. The difference is that they also have access to a jink save in the open, or against an enemy who has circumvented whatever they were using for cover.

morgoth wrote:

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent, you get a Leman Russ that doesn't care about S7 and less and S5 and less in assault.

A few points:

- A Leman Russ is not a transport - it is a dedicated tank.
- A Leman Russ is a HS choice, whilst the WS is a dedicated transport.
- A Leman Russ might not care about S7, but it has to worry about penetrating hits a hell of a lot more than a WS does.
- A Leman Russ *does* have to worry about S5 in assault, because that's still enough to penetrate most of them. Furthermore, it has to worry about assault in general more than a WS does, because it does not have the speed or mobility to easily keep away from assault units.

morgoth wrote:

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent + Dire Avengers, you get a Land Raider that doesn't care about S7 and less in shooting or assault, has 4 HP and can shoot at two different targets.

Not sure about them being in the same price range. Even with some weapon upgrades, you can get a WS + Dire Avengers for less than 200pts - while Land Raiders cost 240+ before upgrades. And, that's before we've even bought anything for the Land Raider to transport. It seems more reasonable to say that you can get 2 WSs (minus crew) for about the same price as a Land Raider (again, minus crew).

In which case, those WSs have 50% more hull points, can shoot 2 different targets with a lot of firepower and can capture 2 objectives (probably with Objective Secured).

morgoth wrote:

All in all, for equivalent cover and price points, tracked tanks tend to be just as resilient as Skimmers, with skimmers having a harder time finding cover and a very costly Jink (66% of damage output for the next turn).

Not really, no.

morgoth wrote:

Moreover, their resilience is not just based on cover saves, which means they don't fall apart when ignores cover weaponry is used.

Well, quite, Pity skimmers get nothing to protect them from ignores-cover weapons. If only they had extra mobility, or some kind of shield that downgrades penetrating hits into glances.

Also, yes, some weapons ignore cover - but, other weapons ignore AV and not cover/jink(Gauss, Haywire, Grav etc.).

morgoth wrote:

Of course, that doesn't prevent the Wave Serpent from being a top-tier unit, but it's important to not mistake the Jink ability for "durability" or "free cover save" because it's neither. It's a very expensive cover save, and adds absolutely no durability against assault or ignores cover.

Sorry, but Jink is a free cover save and does add durability. You can argue that you have to sacrifice shooting, but if your Wave Serpent would otherwise be blown to bits, then it would have even less shooting. I'm sure many people would prefer their Leman Russ or Land Raider to be firing at reduced capacity next turn, then to be a smoking crater next turn.

The thing with Jink is that you have it if and when you need it. If the opponent isn't shooting your vehicle, don't jink. If he's shooting you but not with any particularly threatening weapons, don't jink. If you can just get cover elsewhere - e.g. by positioning your skimmer partially behind some ruins or something, don't jink. If your only chance at winning the game lies with firing everything you've got in your next turn, don't jink. However, if your transport's survival is more important than its offence, you have the option to jink. Perhaps it's sitting on a valuable objective? Perhaps you need it to deliver an important cargo somewhere? Whatever the reason, you have the option to give it an automatic 4+ cover save even in the open.

As discussed in the thread, the Wave Serpents biggest weakness (as with any vehicle) is assault.

It'll be interesting to see what impact Thunderwolves (especially Company of the Great Wolf lists) have on Wave Serpents, who are fast and vapourise most vehicles in one turn of assault.

Also be interesting to see if a new BA codex changes things up too. Mass (cheaper) jumpers with Meltaguns, Krak Grenades and Meltbombs

Bartali wrote:
As discussed in the thread, the Wave Serpents biggest weakness (as with any vehicle) is assault.

It'll be interesting to see what impact Thunderwolves (especially Company of the Great Wolf lists) have on Wave Serpents, who are fast and vapourise most vehicles in one turn of assault.

Also be interesting to see if a new BA codex changes things up too. Mass (cheaper) jumpers with Meltaguns, Krak Grenades and Meltbombs

To bad not everyone is team Jacob or Edward.

The only real way to get rid of a wave serpent is to assault it or HP it with ignore cover. not alot has the later.

The thing is just too good for the price. there is no putting it any different.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Tracked tanks are generally played very statically and will benefit either from friendly troop / hull cover (5+) or ruin cover (4+).

You can do the same with skimmers. The difference is that they also have access to a jink save in the open, or against an enemy who has circumvented whatever they were using for cover.

No you can't, Skimmers tend to be a lot higher and cannot hide 25% behind infantry.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent, you get a Leman Russ that doesn't care about S7 and less and S5 and less in assault.

A few points:

- A Leman Russ is not a transport - it is a dedicated tank.
- A Leman Russ is a HS choice, whilst the WS is a dedicated transport.
- A Leman Russ might not care about S7, but it has to worry about penetrating hits a hell of a lot more than a WS does.
- A Leman Russ *does* have to worry about S5 in assault, because that's still enough to penetrate most of them. Furthermore, it has to worry about assault in general more than a WS does, because it does not have the speed or mobility to easily keep away from assault units.

Yes because Eldar going second and still having their shields up on T1 changes is a hell of a lot more protection. No matter the fact that it's AV12 and will take penetrating hits from a lot more weapons.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

In the same price range as a Wave Serpent + Dire Avengers, you get a Land Raider that doesn't care about S7 and less in shooting or assault, has 4 HP and can shoot at two different targets.

Not sure about them being in the same price range. Even with some weapon upgrades, you can get a WS + Dire Avengers for less than 200pts - while Land Raiders cost 240+ before upgrades. And, that's before we've even bought anything for the Land Raider to transport. It seems more reasonable to say that you can get 2 WSs (minus crew) for about the same price as a Land Raider (again, minus crew).

In which case, those WSs have 50% more hull points, can shoot 2 different targets with a lot of firepower and can capture 2 objectives (probably with Objective Secured).

I thought you were talking about durability ? Oh right, you moved the goalposts again.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

All in all, for equivalent cover and price points, tracked tanks tend to be just as resilient as Skimmers, with skimmers having a harder time finding cover and a very costly Jink (66% of damage output for the next turn).

Not really, no.

morgoth wrote:

Moreover, their resilience is not just based on cover saves, which means they don't fall apart when ignores cover weaponry is used.

Well, quite, Pity skimmers get nothing to protect them from ignores-cover weapons. If only they had extra mobility, or some kind of shield that downgrades penetrating hits into glances.

Shrödinger's Wave Serpent much ?
Good thing that WS is alone on an infinite table with quantum terrain.

 vipoid wrote:

Also, yes, some weapons ignore cover - but, other weapons ignore AV and not cover/jink(Gauss, Haywire, Grav etc.).

morgoth wrote:

Of course, that doesn't prevent the Wave Serpent from being a top-tier unit, but it's important to not mistake the Jink ability for "durability" or "free cover save" because it's neither. It's a very expensive cover save, and adds absolutely no durability against assault or ignores cover.

Sorry, but Jink is a free cover save and does add durability. You can argue that you have to sacrifice shooting, but if your Wave Serpent would otherwise be blown to bits, then it would have even less shooting. I'm sure many people would prefer their Leman Russ or Land Raider to be firing at reduced capacity next turn, then to be a smoking crater next turn.

And what happens every time it wouldn't have been blown to bits ? Oh right. That's what I thought.
Said LR can only be penned 16% of the time by a lascan, instead of 50% of the time for a WS. Even with the Jink save, the WS is penned exactly as many times as the Land Raider. If the LR has cover, the WS does a lot worse. but it's more resilient because vipoid said so.

 vipoid wrote:


The thing with Jink is that you have it if and when you need it. If the opponent isn't shooting your vehicle, don't jink. If he's shooting you but not with any particularly threatening weapons, don't jink. If you can just get cover elsewhere - e.g. by positioning your skimmer partially behind some ruins or something, don't jink. If your only chance at winning the game lies with firing everything you've got in your next turn, don't jink. However, if your transport's survival is more important than its offence, you have the option to jink. Perhaps it's sitting on a valuable objective? Perhaps you need it to deliver an important cargo somewhere? Whatever the reason, you have the option to give it an automatic 4+ cover save even in the open.

Go try a Wave Serpent for yourself, you have no idea how it works and what Jink really is.

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Tracked tanks are generally played very statically and will benefit either from friendly troop / hull cover (5+) or ruin cover (4+).

You can do the same with skimmers. The difference is that they also have access to a jink save in the open, or against an enemy who has circumvented whatever they were using for cover.

No you can't, Skimmers tend to be a lot higher and cannot hide 25% behind infantry.

a) Intervening units don't need 25% cover
b) This is factually incorrect - the low skimmer base (what many people use because of balancing act issues) leaves the Serpent low enough that Dire Avengers can provide 25% cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:
In the same price range as a Wave Serpent + Dire Avengers, you get a Land Raider that doesn't care about S7 and less in shooting or assault, has 4 HP and can shoot at two different targets.

Not sure about them being in the same price range. Even with some weapon upgrades, you can get a WS + Dire Avengers for less than 200pts - while Land Raiders cost 240+ before upgrades. And, that's before we've even bought anything for the Land Raider to transport. It seems more reasonable to say that you can get 2 WSs (minus crew) for about the same price as a Land Raider (again, minus crew).

In which case, those WSs have 50% more hull points, can shoot 2 different targets with a lot of firepower and can capture 2 objectives (probably with Objective Secured).

I thought you were talking about durability ? Oh right, you moved the goalposts again.

I underlined where you brought up shooting. The only additional thing he brought up was capturing 2 objectives. Everything else was directly answering your point - no goalpost shifting here.

Go try a Wave Serpent for yourself, you have no idea how it works and what Jink really is.

I have. You're simply wrong.

morgoth wrote:

No you can't, Skimmers tend to be a lot higher and cannot hide 25% behind infantry. Depends how tall the infantry are. Not to mention, you can still hide them behind MCs or terrain.

Yes because Eldar going second and still having their shields up on T1 changes is a hell of a lot more protection. No matter the fact that it's AV12 and will take penetrating hits from a lot more weapons. I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Yes, more things can penetrate AV12, but you have a shield that downgrades those to glancing hits on a 2+, and can also jink for a 4+ cover save.

I thought you were talking about durability ? Oh right, you moved the goalposts again. I merely addressed the comparison you brought up - including your point about shooting two different targets. So, if the goalposts are in the wrong position, it's because you moved them there yourself.

Shrödinger's Wave Serpent much ? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your terminology, but I thought "Shrödinger's Wave Serpent" referred to the assumption that a Wave Serpent will have every upgrade. However, neither the Shield, nor Jink (or mobility, for that matter), is an upgrade - WSs have them automatically. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Good thing that WS is alone on an infinite table with quantum terrain. Good thing I'm a pineapple and frequently decorate my table with watermelons. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were exchanging pointless statements.

And what happens every time it wouldn't have been blown to bits ? Oh right. That's what I thought. So, if you're not worried about your WS exploding, then don't jink. It's not like you're forced to.

Said LR can only be penned 16% of the time by a lascan, instead of 50% of the time for a WS. Even with the Jink save, the WS is penned exactly as many times as the Land Raider. If the LR has cover, the WS does a lot worse. but it's more resilient because vipoid said so. Yep, because Lascannons are the only anti-vehicle weapons in existance. No one will ever use a Lance, Melta, Guass, Haywire or other weapon against you. As long as you can survive a Lascannon, you're good to go.

My responses in Red.

"Schroedinger's Waveserpent" is generally the concept that a serpent cannot fire its sheild and then downgrade a pen with it. One or the other.

Either way, the fact remains that the only argument that stands is that the WS can be spammed using a regular CAD.

Face your problems, ask for unbound and stop whining about a unit that may not even be in the top 10 most broken 40K units.

Or start calling every other unit around that power level OP, and make as many threads about it as you do with the Wave Serpent, for consistency's sake.

By shrodingers wave serpent, he means to say that wave serpents are not overpowered because they cannot use their shields in both modes and cannot jink and shoot at normal bs all at once. Therefore that catagorically means they can't be overpowered, as they could only possibly be OP if they could do all of it at once.
It's his favourite catch phrase and ironically enough doesn't actually parallel with the theory behind shrodingers cat anyway.