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Soooo your "Proof" is six weeks away? So in other words, you have none. Yet demand proof beyond the financial reports put out by GW themselves? Wow!

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
TSR 'grew' right before it fell. They unleashed a ton of stuff. And then 'Boom.' They were gone.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen to GW. But many releases does not equate to more success. As I said before, I think GW is falling, but I don't know where that fall may end. Imminent doom? Maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is that if they continue as they are with no change for the better, then they will go under. It's like a plane in a descent. he may be really high up, but sooner or later he has to pull up or he's going to hit the ground.

Can I have the proof/source for when you stated that GW´s new products after their last report haven´t increased their sales?

Umm...what? The last sales report? During that time in the report, C:SM, IK, IG and 7th were all released. Those are historically their biggest money makers. Yet they showed a decline in sales. Instead of me "offering proof," just go read the report for yourself.

 RunicFIN wrote:


-GW´s sales will have increased after the last financial reports due to the vast amount of new product, some of them ( especially the Tyranid drop pod ) having been reported selling really well. This is true.

This is not true because we do not know this for a fact, as the numbers have not been published.

Until then, its merely speculation.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Can I have the proof/source for when you stated that GW´s new products after their last report haven´t increased their sales?
Umm...what? The last sales report? During that time in the report, C:SM, IK, IG and 7th were all released. Those are historically their biggest money makers. Yet they showed a decline in sales. Instead of me "offering proof," just go read the report for yourself.

Can I have the proof/source for when you stated that GW´s new products after their last report haven´t increased their sales?

You referred to the "tyranid testacle" -yourself, clear indication that you knew perfectly well what I´m talking about ( the products released after the last sales report, which the "tyranid testacle" itself is one of. )

Is this another misinterpretation game?

 MWHistorian wrote:
TSR 'grew' right before it fell. They unleashed a ton of stuff. And then 'Boom.' They were gone.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen to GW. But many releases does not equate to more success. As I said before, I think GW is falling, but I don't know where that fall may end. Imminent doom? Maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is that if they continue as they are with no change for the better, then they will go under. It's like a plane in a descent. he may be really high up, but sooner or later he has to pull up or he's going to hit the ground.

Gods, I hope that GW has better accountants than TSR did - towards the end, one of the things that they were ignoring was that most of those box sets cost more than TSR was making from them. (There is, in the depths of the interweb, an account of the WotC takeover, and the shambles that Dancey found... Let me Google, a mo... Here.)

I think that GW is breaking new ground in its financial stupidity, not just repeating TSR's mistakes.... though it is doing that as well.

The Auld grump

 Musashi363 wrote:
Soooo your "Proof" is six weeks away? So in other words, you have none. Yet demand proof beyond the financial reports put out by GW themselves? Wow!

I have some. I can PM you also ( but be prepared I will smear it in your face that I was correct. )

Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

 Blacksails wrote:
Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

Tom Kirby will reward him one day for his absolute faith in the Plastic-Emperor of Mankind.

So there!

 Blacksails wrote:
Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

Because it´s a tolling task, being right, and not being able to show it well enough to satisfy everyone, and I´ll think of the smearing as equalization for some of the things that have been said here.

 Accolade wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

Tom Kirby will reward him one day for his absolute faith in the Plastic-Emperor of Mankind.

So there!

How can I reward myself?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

Because it´s a tolling task, being right, and not being able to show it well enough to satisfy everyone, and I´ll think of the smearing as equalization for some of the things that have been said here.

 Accolade wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why not post it for all to see? Why the secrecy?

Further, why the mention of smearing? Do you take the success or failure of GW so personally you need to do that?

Tom Kirby will reward him one day for his absolute faith in the Plastic-Emperor of Mankind.

So there!

How can I reward myself?

You just said you have proof and will show one person, yet you won't show everyone 'cause it's too much work? Do you have access to the next report that hasn't been released yet?
If you don't produce said evidence, you'll be considered trolling.

 RunicFIN wrote:


Because it´s a tolling task, being right, and not being able to show it well enough to satisfy everyone, and I´ll think of the smearing as equalization for some of the things that have been said here.

If its so tolling, why bother posting at all? If you have data no one else has seen, but make arguments based on that data, it seems fairly obvious you'd show everyone the same data so we can all re-assess and re-evaluate and discuss things on the same level of knowledge.

And again, it feels like you're taking a discussion about a corporate entity far too seriously if you need to smear it in people's face if you happen to be correct. You're not faultless in this conversation.

If you have information, post it. If you choose not to, expect people to not believe you and dismiss what you have to say as being unsubstantiated. Being correct about it later will mean nothing if you've hidden information just for the sake of being right. Seems downright petty. Maybe you need to step outside and build a snowman or something. Put things in perspective.

Hmm, I thought this was made up, but based on some of the responses in this thread, this could be a legitimate career choice in Scandinavia.

 MWHistorian wrote:

If you don't produce said evidence, you'll be considered trolling.

Where is the proof of yours regarding the new products of GW not increasing their sales? I asked it for once already, did not receive it. As I mentioned before, you mentioned the "tyranid testacle" -which means you knew I was talking about products that came after the last report, yet you still pointed me to the old report.

So, yeah?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

If you don't produce said evidence, you'll be considered trolling.

Where is the proof of yours regarding the new products of GW not increasing their sales? I asked it for once already, did not receive it. As I mentioned before, you mentioned the "tyranid testacle" -which means you knew I was talking about products that came after the last report, yet you still pointed me to the old report.

So, yeah?

You really think one model for one army is going to do more sales than the C:SM, IG and IK put together?

 Blacksails wrote:

Being correct about it later will mean nothing if you've hidden information just for the sake of being right. Seems downright petty.

Being correct about it is being correct about it, and the doomsayers being wrong. And maybe you should take into consideration it might not be a matter of being petty but something else entirely.

In fairness, there's also the End Times, which seems to have been met with mostly positive reviews.

Though it is Fantasy, which does sell less than 40k.

Being correct about it is being correct about it, and the doomsayers being wrong. And maybe you should take into consideration it might not be a matter of being petty but something else entirely.

Being right to spite people you label as doomsayers is the definition of being petty.

Its the equivalent of yelling 'I told you so!'. I have a hard time thinking of something more petty. You're withholding relevant information just to be right in a discussion online.

Explain to me how that isn't petty?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

If you don't produce said evidence, you'll be considered trolling.

Where is the proof of yours regarding the new products of GW not increasing their sales? I asked it for once already, did not receive it. As I mentioned before, you mentioned the "tyranid testacle" -which means you knew I was talking about products that came after the last report, yet you still pointed me to the old report.

So, yeah?

It is the concept of past behaviour being a good indicator, 7th Edition,Space Marines and Knights didn't stop them shrinking, so why should anything released since?

There hasn't been a significant increase in volume either, the army books have accelerated, but the weekly releases does distort the perception of the volume of new releases somewhat.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

If you don't produce said evidence, you'll be considered trolling.

Where is the proof of yours regarding the new products of GW not increasing their sales? I asked it for once already, did not receive it. As I mentioned before, you mentioned the "tyranid testacle" -which means you knew I was talking about products that came after the last report, yet you still pointed me to the old report.

So, yeah?

You really think one model for one army is going to do more sales than the C:SM, IG and IK put together?

And again you failed to read what I wrote. In my post I listed ( asfar as I can see ) everything that came after said sales report.

Again, proof that the products I mentioned haven´t increased GW´s sales. You´re always demanding proof, now is your turn. Stop dodging the question. ( That´s what, third time now? First you act like you don´t know I was talking about products after the sales report while clearly referencing one that came after, now you make it as if I only mentioned one product. )

I don´t even... Just provide the proof for the question you know I am asking, and the statement you made yourself less than 10 minutes ago, or take it back that I am mistaken and what you said is made up entirely of your own belief.

Let me get this straight... Runic calls someone out for 'acting like in middle school'.

Then proceeds to play the 'no, I have proof really but it's secret' game.

You know, there's a sad day in the career of every white knight when a critical mass of posters put them on their ignore list. At that point, their meaningless drivel falls on mostly deaf ears, their painful attempts at trolling going unreacted to. It's been seen many times, from many posters. Where are they now, those brave souls who defended GW by spanning their lies across countless threads, twisting their narrative to suit whichever petty argument they'd instigated this time?

I think this thread might be Runic's sad day.

Runic, you made the original claim that those products have increased sales.

The burden is on you to provide the evidence to support that claim, not the other way around for us to disprove it.

Jesus wept this is painful..

Think things have strayed a little bit here between Runic heroically holding the GW banner aloft while being stabbed from all sides.

To the OP's original question ? It's deeply situational. The only circumstance under which I would advise a beginner (and by that, I assume it means a fresh entrant to wargaming) would be if the people within my gaming group only played GW games. I think if you were in that situation, and the person had the money to get into it, then it would indeed be a sensible choice.

I don't think playing 40k is as bad as having red-hot needles shoved into your eyes, as some people seem to suggest. Despite such a thing seemingly not have been a priority now for several editions, you can still have an awful lot of fun with it. I still play if the circumstances are very specific and I know my opponent is on the same page as me (pre-heresy, limited to infantry and tanks, none of this new giant Tomix-toys nonsense or having previously sworn enemies fighting alongside each other). I also wouldn't hesitate to introduce Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim or Epic, which are all fantastic games and can be easily accessed at a cheap price.

But, would I recommend WFB or 40k to someone when they had the whole smorgasbord of wargaming in front of them, and were open minded about where to start? Absolutely not; there are many better written games out there, with sharper mechanics and which give the player more opportunity to use the organ that sits in-between their ears.

 RunicFIN wrote:

You made the claim that their sales would increase, burden of proof is on you, bud. Nobody else has to provide squat.

 Blacksails wrote:
Runic, you made the original claim that those products have increased sales.

The burden is on you to provide the evidence to support that claim, not the other way around for us to disprove it.

MWHistorian has made a claim that the new products released after GW´s last report haven´t increased sales ( by saying I´m mistaken about it ) and he has just asmuch burden to reveal his source as I have mine.

You don´t get to make up any rules, sorry. He has asked me for proof on vaurious occasions, now it´s his turn and that´s all there is to it. Claim here:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If you think SW and a tyranid giant testicle are going to top those, then you're mistaken.

Here we have a bunch of anti-gw folk, demanding for proof for things opposite of their beliefs, and when they have to provide some for their own claims they just go "we don´t have to provide proof for what we say, only the other party does."

A new low.

 Blacksails wrote:
Runic, you made the original claim that those products have increased sales.

The burden is on you to provide the evidence to support that claim, not the other way around for us to disprove it.

This.
I stated past top sellers in the last report (again) C:SM, IG and the highly successful IK. Not to mention 7th edition. All did very well and the codex's and new edition are historically their top sellers. Nothing released since then has historically done better than the previously mentioned releases. So, my evidence is past behavior.
And again, the burden of proof is on you. You claimed to have evidence yet you won't show anyone. That reeks of insincerity.

Runic, you made the original claim here.

If the burden rests on anyone, its you.

Obviously you don't think that, so continuing this is as productive as shouting at a wall.

Shame, I would have liked to see this information you have.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Runic, you made the original claim that those products have increased sales.

The burden is on you to provide the evidence to support that claim, not the other way around for us to disprove it.

This.
I stated past top sellers in the last report (again) C:SM, IG and the highly successful IK. Not to mention 7th edition. All did very well and the codex's and new edition are historically their top sellers. Nothing released since then has historically done better than the previously mentioned releases. So, my evidence is past behavior.
And again, the burden of proof is on you. You claimed to have evidence yet you won't show anyone. That reeks of insincerity.

Hmm no, the burden of proof of your own statement is on you. So yeah, again, give us the proof GW´s new products after the last sales report haven´t increased their sales, which is what you claimed. You are always demanding proof of people, do the same.

Otherwise I guess I can also use the past as proof, or do you have special-needs-person priviledges regarding that also? GW has risen from a sales low before, that´s my proof of the past behaviour. - and it´s absolutely equal to yours.

Sorry MW, there´s no talking your way out of this. Provide proof for your claim, just like I have to provide for mine, or refrain from demanding proof forever ( you do it to vaurious people actively. ) Or your third option, continue to act paradoxical, which you factually are if you don´t back up your claim like you demand of everyone else.

Those are your 3 options, and there´s no squirming away from them, as one of them will be met automatically regardless of your actions.

In any case, keep believing guys. We´ll see in when the new report hits. The funny thing is even that really means nothing, as singular sales reports, be they positive or negative, have not much to do with a success of a company the size of GW. In a way this is all so irrelevant but you just can´t apparently see it, and I find this whole "omg bad sales report gw dying yo" so hilarious.

 RunicFIN wrote:


Sorry MW, there´s no talking your way out of this. Provide proof for your claim, just like I have to provide for mine, or refrain from demanding proof forever ( you do it to vaurious people actively. ) Or your third option, continue to act paradoxical, which you factually are if you don´t back up your claim like you demand of everyone else.

Those are your 3 options, and there´s no squirming away from them, as one of them will be met automatically regardless of your actions.

First, reported for needlessly insulting MWH.

Secondly, you clearly don't understand logic. We don't evaluate separate claims simultaneously, we evaluate each claim on its own merits according to relevant evidence. Your claim is that its true that the releases since the financial report have increased GW's global sales, yet you have no evidence for this, despite claiming to possess proof.

Post your evidence, or consider your claim conceded.

 Riquende wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


Sorry MW, there´s no talking your way out of this. Provide proof for your claim, just like I have to provide for mine, or refrain from demanding proof forever ( you do it to vaurious people actively. ) Or your third option, continue to act paradoxical, which you factually are if you don´t back up your claim like you demand of everyone else.

Those are your 3 options, and there´s no squirming away from them, as one of them will be met automatically regardless of your actions.

First, reported for needlessly insulting MWH.

Secondly, you clearly don't understand logic. We don't evaluate separate claims simultaneously, we evaluate each claim on its own merits according to relevant evidence. Your claim is that its true that the releases since the financial report have increased GW's global sales, yet you have no evidence for this, despite claiming to possess proof.

Post your evidence, or consider your claim conceded.

Don´t make me laugh. You say a person ( one that you for some reason bunch up with, perhaps you share his view regarding GW or something ) doesn´t need to provide proof for his claims while everyone who disagrees is continously asked for proof. There´s no logic whatsoever in that, just the epitome of you lot being paradoxical.

And MWHistorians claim is that the new releases since the last financial reports have not increased GW´s sales, yet he has no evidence for that. He can post his evidence, or consider his claim conceded.

Secondly, you don´t have to inform me about your report, I´m really not that interested. I report anyone being unpolite just the same.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Runic, you made the original claim that those products have increased sales.

The burden is on you to provide the evidence to support that claim, not the other way around for us to disprove it.

This.
I stated past top sellers in the last report (again) C:SM, IG and the highly successful IK. Not to mention 7th edition. All did very well and the codex's and new edition are historically their top sellers. Nothing released since then has historically done better than the previously mentioned releases. So, my evidence is past behavior.
And again, the burden of proof is on you. You claimed to have evidence yet you won't show anyone. That reeks of insincerity.

It is reeking of several things beginning with the letter 'I'.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof is a truism for a reason. (Thank you David Hume....)

But, just because it amuses me - one of the greatest proponents of proof was Thomas Jefferson, who once noted that "I would rather believe two Yankee professors would lie, than that stones have fallen from the heavens."

Who know? *Shrug* They might be giants.

The Auld Grump

Guys, unicorns are real. You want proof? I can prove it but only through PM, and i'm gonna smear your face, ass, whatever, with the unicorn truth!

And you don't have proof that they're not real! HAH~! Take that, logic!