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20 Spiritseers 1400
4x 10 Guardian Defenders, Brightlance - 440

Read here ...

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p1020-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#bottom

With all honesty, you don't need anything special to brake a summoning list.
They are not very good to begin with.

How is this any different from what a full blown daemon list can do?

How to break it? Use the turns in which the opponent does nothing but summoning to gain objectives. Also start sniping off Warp Points as soon as possible. In most cases he'll not recover from your head start.

And especially with Eldar, where even standard fire wounds on 3+ you will have no problem killing enough Warp Points. If, like suggested in that linked thread, he uses Invisibility on Guardian Squads you're off even better. Guardians do not have a high threat range and you can simply ignore them. Also he will have to spend at least 3-4 warp points for every Invis cast which will harm his summoning snowball severely.

Bottom line: not better than other summoning lists, which can be countered even with most TAC lists.

If you really want to be unpleasant to people with "invincible summoning lists":

~ take 2 x culexus assassin
~ infiltrate 13" away out of line of sight.
~ move within 12", thus removing invisibility.
~ open up with the animus speculum, getting 10-20 shots each, depending on how closely packed the guardians are and if he's summoned any horrors.
~ Laugh like a drain.
~ ???
~ Profit.

Summoning Daemons using a non-Daemon caster is difficult.
We tried it in an apoc games and the casters died too easily.
The only caster able to achieve it is the Farseer due to the ghost helmet.
The Spiritseers will die in droves.

Surely you can use the Spiritseers as the initial surge, then moving them over to battery duty only/

Its all about cost-per-WC. If you can get that cheap, 1 turn of decent summoning should allow you to make a good core of Daemon summoners.

Just my thought.

Summoning Daemons using a non-Daemon caster is difficult.
We tried it in an apoc games and the casters died too easily.
The only caster able to achieve it is the Farseer due to the ghost helmet.
The Spiritseers will die in droves.

Irrelevant after two turns of summoning. You have 40 WC - turn one you will create another 6 or more WC - so if a few casters bite it ( not likely until tuen two (and guardians will take some of the heat). Turn two you repwat and you get another 6 WC --- and then start casting off the daemons.

And especially with Eldar, where even standard fire wounds on 3+ you will have no problem killing enough Warp Points. If, like suggested in that linked thread, he uses Invisibility on Guardian Squads you're off even better. Guardians do not have a high threat range and you can simply ignore them. Also he will have to spend at least 3-4 warp points for every Invis cast which will harm his summoning snowball severely.

Seriously - you will, be spreading out those Seers in cover and hiding behind LoS etc. etc. As for invisibility - well you don't need it on all four squads and expending a few WC when you have that many is not a big deal is it?

How is this any different from what a full blown daemon list can do?

A full blown daemon list starts with 20-25 WC. Surely you can appreciate the difference.

Can anyone explain this to me? a psyker's abilities are generated before the game begins. I can see that summoning can increase the available warp charge, but how do people justify the ability to summon more summoners?

Double CAD's (like you used) can produce a 45 daemon charged list at 1850, though it's only split between 15 psykers.

The only effective summon bomb list I ran was the 7 plagues.
Daemon, unbound
1 Great Unclean one (level 3)
1 Daemon prince of nurgle (level 3)
5 Flying Daemon Princes of nurgle (level 3)

Guys on foot stay in cover, the 5 flyers jink. It's only 21 warp charge (initially), but flying daemon princes can bring in the summoned units right on the enemy, and contribute to the game effectively, outside of just summoning.
It's an army of 2+ cover, most of it flying.

 carldooley wrote:
Can anyone explain this to me? a psyker's abilities are generated before the game begins. I can see that summoning can increase the available warp charge, but how do people justify the ability to summon more summoners?

Cant remember exact wording, but the psyker summoned still gets to generate powers. I am pretty sure it doesn't provide warp charges, and cannot cast on the turn it is created though. Daemons have been able to spawn/summon pink horrors since the book came out via warp storm and portal glyph. Pretty sure there is either a rules thing, or errata on it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Can anyone explain this to me? a psyker's abilities are generated before the game begins. I can see that summoning can increase the available warp charge, but how do people justify the ability to summon more summoners?

Cant remember exact wording, but the psyker summoned still gets to generate powers. I am pretty sure it doesn't provide warp charges, and cannot cast on the turn it is created though. Daemons have been able to spawn/summon pink horrors since the book came out via warp storm and portal glyph. Pretty sure there is either a rules thing, or errata on it.

Thankyou. I don't play summoning and I haven't played against them yet, but I'd like to know the mechanic, so I can find the best way to disrupt it!

 felixcat wrote:
A full blown daemon list starts with 20-25 WC. Surely you can appreciate the difference.

Lol no. Daemons can easily get up to 48+ warp charges with multiple CADs because our troops are psykers too (4 Lvl 3 heralds + 2x11 pink horrors = 16 WCs for 578 , rinse and repeat). Even if daemons kept it to just two CADs like your list we still can get up to 46 warp charge by just spamming the 11x pink horror squads instead. We also get access to better tools such as the Portalglyph and the Blue Scribes who give us free summons on top of the ones we'd get from 48 warp charges. And we don't perils on every doubles like eldar would.

Daemons still are the best codex to do a daemon factory summoning list. And even then it's still a bad list.

Not fond of unbound TBH. And I'll repeat - there is a huge difference between 40 WC and 25 WC -- turn one you can easily summon two LoC and 5-6 Heralds for a lot of WC - they activate the next turn of course but that is fine ... there will still be more WC for invisibility and either troops - horrors or drones or fiends (nice extra AT).

On turn two and three you can also start going for bolt of change ... that adds some extra dakka real quick.

Neither of my lists were unbound. One had 3 CADs and the other had 2 CADs (just like your list) and both of them had more warp charges then you.

First, the main list doesn't take invisibility. I'm the one who wrote that list, and by turn 2, on average, I could have 2 Lords of Change(Level3) and 10 Heralds of Tzeentch(Level 2). And yes, new psykers DO add to warp charge, because you count your warp charge at the beginning of each psychic phase. Otherwise, no one would ever be able to make you LOSE warp charge if you only counted it at the beginning of the game.

So, 2 Lords of Change and 10 Heralds of Tzeentch add 26 Levels of Mastery/Warp Charge. You won't start losing psykers from perils until turn 2, and even that is mitigated by taking the higher risk rolls on models that haven't been wounded yet. You have target saturation by splitting all 20 spiritseers up into different units and using cover/LoS to hide them, forcing your opponent to split their fire, fire lots of stuff into a single spiritseer who's alone, or fire into a concealed unit of disposable guardians. So, by turn 2, I have 43+26 levels of Mastery, minus whatever your opponent kills on their turn 1. 69 potential levels of mastery by turn 2. I haven't seen any Daemon-based summoning list able to do that. They don't typically have the models for it. Because mine is seperated into multiple cheap models, they can cast the same, cheap powers as much as they have been able to roll them. Namely, sacrifice, and by using guardians as the sacrifice, they're netting +65 points worth of units per 1 warp charge ability successfully cast. In this list, I pay only 35 points per level of mastery present in my 43 mastery level army. Losing psykers to perils doesn't matter even when you DO lose them. They're replaced by bigger, more expensive psykers that WON'T peril.

Neither of my lists were unbound. One had 3 CADs and the other had 2 CADs (just like your list) and both of them had more warp charges then you.

My daemon codex says that ONLY the primary detachment can take four heralds. So it is unbound. The extra detachments are CAD but not primary. Daemon codex ... pg. 94

 felixcat wrote:

Neither of my lists were unbound. One had 3 CADs and the other had 2 CADs (just like your list) and both of them had more warp charges then you.

My daemon codex says that ONLY the primary detachment can take four heralds. So it is unbound. The extra detachments are CAD but not primary. Daemon codex ... pg. 94

FAQ bro. Even allied daemons can take 4 heralds per HQ slot.

 felixcat wrote:

Neither of my lists were unbound. One had 3 CADs and the other had 2 CADs (just like your list) and both of them had more warp charges then you.

My daemon codex says that ONLY the primary detachment can take four heralds. So it is unbound. The extra detachments are CAD but not primary. Daemon codex ... pg. 94

read the faq for daemons because they removed the primary detachment requirement for 4 heralds

My bad. I never play daemons as a detachment and did not see that FaQ ... just checked the black library FaQ - I was mistaken.

And exalted flamers, who are surprisingly ineffective.

Having short-ranged heavy weapons and no relentless is a problem.

The problem with non-chaos doing daemon farm isn't just the miscasting, it's the "One Eye Open".
Good chunks of your force are going to sit and do nothing, and those might be units that really want/need to do something.
IMO, the list is too slow to get going. Anything really fast will give you huge troubles when you go 2nd.

If an opponent can stall you in the backfield, or if your stall yourself via One Eye Open, then you're left with less than half a game to get everything done. It doesn't matter how much you summon on turn 4 or 5 when you've already lost by turn 3.

That's why I advocate the FMC summon farm. You can rain down the summoned units where you need them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a Single CAD flying farm.

Great Unclean One, level 3
4x Level 3 herald of tzeench
12 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
3 Flying Princes of Nurgle, level 3.

It's 32 dice, doesn't worry (as much) about miscasting, and have 3 flying princes to work as the delivery system.

Unlike 20 IC's, it isn't hard countered by a few pods full of Purifiers.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a Single CAD flying farm.

Great Unclean One, level 3
4x Level 3 herald of tzeench
12 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
3 Flying Princes of Nurgle, level 3.

That's easily 2K points or more. Don't know any big GTs at that high of a points level.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The problem with non-chaos doing daemon farm isn't just the miscasting, it's the "One Eye Open".
Good chunks of your force are going to sit and do nothing, and those might be units that really want/need to do something.
IMO, the list is too slow to get going. Anything really fast will give you huge troubles when you go 2nd.

If an opponent can stall you in the backfield, or if your stall yourself via One Eye Open, then you're left with less than half a game to get everything done. It doesn't matter how much you summon on turn 4 or 5 when you've already lost by turn 3.

That's why I advocate the FMC summon farm. You can rain down the summoned units where you need them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a Single CAD flying farm.

Great Unclean One, level 3
4x Level 3 herald of tzeench
12 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
3 Flying Princes of Nurgle, level 3.

It's 32 dice, doesn't worry (as much) about miscasting, and have 3 flying princes to work as the delivery system.

Unlike 20 IC's, it isn't hard countered by a few pods full of Purifiers.

-Matt

This is basically the list I use now. It's also the list that several people have started playing in Tourneys. It's really good.

Budzerker wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a Single CAD flying farm.

Great Unclean One, level 3
4x Level 3 herald of tzeench
12 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
11 horrors
3 Flying Princes of Nurgle, level 3.

That's easily 2K points or more. Don't know any big GTs at that high of a points level.

It's 1850 on the nose.

I like the Daemon list better as it has more bite, but neither of these lists do all that much damage. They just create units.

To answer the OP's question. Grey Knights. That is how you break a summoning list. You use your AW and any librarians you have in the area to deny the summoning check. you dispel on at least a 5+, and typically you only need 1 or 2 successes to null the power. I can typically generate around 21+ warp charges in a 2k army. that should sufficiently stop the psyker phase and you still have a bunch of power weapon wielding terminators or purifiers with storm bolters to hit in every other phase.

 GKTiberius wrote:
To answer the OP's question. Grey Knights. That is how you break a summoning list. You use your AW and any librarians you have in the area to deny the summoning check. you dispel on at least a 5+, and typically you only need 1 or 2 successes to null the power. I can typically generate around 21+ warp charges in a 2k army. that should sufficiently stop the psyker phase and you still have a bunch of power weapon wielding terminators or purifiers with storm bolters to hit in every other phase.

Are you the target of the summon?
No. So you deny on a 6+. (Take a careful look at the Deny the Witch rule, you don't get bonuses unless the model is the target of the power).
Summon is a warp charge 3 power. If it's going off successfully, you're going to need at least 3 6's to stop it; you need one Six for every Six I rolled.
That's ~18 dice.
You're 21 warp charge army is looking at maybe stopping 1 summons per turn.

Where Grey Knights excel at stopping the Daemon Farm is when they can deep strike in turn 1 and spam Cleansing Flame (I posted a list with allied drop pods today, on this very topic).

-Matt

Budzerker wrote:
I like the Daemon list better as it has more bite, but neither of these lists do all that much damage. They just create units.

I fail to see how the Flying Farm lacks bite. 3 Nurgle Princes will lay out some hurt. Especially when they have to deal with everything that's being summoned. I like summoning hounds turn 1. They're not as killy as Daemonettes, but are faster and more durable allowing them to eat unfavorable overwatches and tie down shooty stuff. If they are summoned by the princes who are advancing they WILL assault something turn 2. Princes advance 12-24", summon hounds 12" further up, hounds run ~4", next turn hounds advance another 12". That's between 40" and 52" inches of movement for the hounds before they roll to assault something. That list can easily summon 20 of them with some room for Cursed Earth or other buffs. A lot of lists will struggle to take out 40 T4 5++ wounds (possibly 4++ from Cursed Earth) and still have enough shooting to scare the rest of the list.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Budzerker wrote:
I like the Daemon list better as it has more bite, but neither of these lists do all that much damage. They just create units.

I fail to see how the Flying Farm lacks bite. 3 Nurgle Princes will lay out some hurt. Especially when they have to deal with everything that's being summoned. I like summoning hounds turn 1. They're not as killy as Daemonettes, but are faster and more durable allowing them to eat unfavorable overwatches and tie down shooty stuff. If they are summoned by the princes who are advancing they WILL assault something turn 2. Princes advance 12-24", summon hounds 12" further up, hounds run ~4", next turn hounds advance another 12". That's between 40" and 52" inches of movement for the hounds before they roll to assault something. That list can easily summon 20 of them with some room for Cursed Earth or other buffs. A lot of lists will struggle to take out 40 T4 5++ wounds (possibly 4++ from Cursed Earth) and still have enough shooting to scare the rest of the list.

Top Eldar lists can shoot to death all that you summon. DE too. Especially Tau. The princes too as soon as they land. Unless your skimming them along the ground in which case their dead for sure.

Also, as pointed out above, drop lists going first can murder you.