Kings of War Fantasy Battle Game - 2nd Edition by Mantic Games Kickstarter (Live and funded)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**judgedoug**

lord_blackfang wrote:
I haven't even checked for analogues. Even if army analogues exist, I doubt they cover most of GW's specialist models.

I own Dwarfs, Ogres, Tomb Kings and O&G and a bit of Skaven.

There's a full Dwarf, Ogre, Orc, Goblin list (O and G are separate armies in KoW, but you can mix allies of the same alignment).

The vast majority of fantasy tropes are covered.

I switched from Warhammer years ago (since I haaaaaate 8th) and haven't looked back. KoW is straight up a better ruleset. And it looks like, from the blog posts, it's going to get even better.

**lord_blackfang**

privateer4hire wrote:
jorny wrote:
Considering that they will keep the rules and army lists free on the web, using a Kickstarter for a print edition makes sense.

If that [free web rules + free army lists] continues then I agree.
I have no reason to believe they would change their practice of keeping the rules free.

Ronnie explicitly said in the last video that the free downloads will stay.

**mattjgilbert**

Yes the rules and lists will remain free.

I always fully intended to update my ratmen, lizardmen and WoC fanlists once we'd sorted the official lists. The committee will now jointly do that to make sure they are redone using exactly the same methodology as the official rules (making them as unofficially official as we can).

**adamsouza**

I really hope KoW2 will include a Demon and or Elemental based Armies.

**mattjgilbert**

But KoW 1 already does (Abyssal and Nature armies).

All armies from existing expansion books (like those two) will be included in the core rulebook now (and reviewed and revised with all the rest).

**adamsouza**

mattjgilbert wrote:
But KoW 1 already does (Abyssal and Nature armies).

Do they make models for them ?

I only see Abyssal Dwarves and no nature army in their store.

**Prestor Jon**

MongooseMatt wrote:
Rolt wrote:
WFB going's skirmish scale???

When did this happen or whats the rumors on this (got a link?), I don't play any GW games currently so I don't really keep up to date with their news.

Nothing has been said by GW about this, but...

Take this with a grain of salt, but we have been hearing a lot of 'traffic' about this here at Mongoose HQ - a new edition of WFB in the summer of 2015 that is going to be 'more like 40k'. If the End Times really is designed to put a cap on the current edition (remember, GW have done Big Things Happen books before without substantially altering games, starting way back when with Armageddon 3), then it does make for a nice segue into that kind of game. We have heard that the decision was between going 40k-ish or ending WFB entirely, based on the relative sales between the two.

Again, take all this with a grain of salt - this is the story floating around the industry side of things. And one doubt I do have is that they are releasing big models like Nagash which seem more geared for big battles - being plastic, they are unlikely to just end those models. Then again, you do get big models (titans!) in 40k, so perhaps it does make sense. Maybe Mantic have heard something a bit more solid and are proceeding with KoW 2.0 to fulfil the perceived gap.

Not sure who really knows outside of GW. This is just what is on the grapevine...

Are we sure that GW really wants to shrink the scale of WHFB and that the "skirmish" idea isn't just a misinterpretation of the change to 50% Lords and Heroes shrinking the model count on the table for given point values?

OT

Has it been decided if there will be an ebook version of the rules available through the kickstarter? It seems like that would be a better use of funds if the ks goes well than just pulling out more models to throw in.

**mattjgilbert**

adamsouza wrote:
mattjgilbert wrote:
But KoW 1 already does (Abyssal and Nature armies).

Do they make models for them ?

I only see Abyssal Dwarves and no nature army in their store.

No but I think Abyssals will be first on the list should the funding get smashed.

**edlowe**

The large abyssals have been sculpted for a while and were on show at last years openday, so too was the ogre shaman that never got released, the ogres just need some ogre braves sculpting and the list is pretty much complete.

**adamsouza**

mattjgilbert wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
mattjgilbert wrote:
But KoW 1 already does (Abyssal and Nature armies).

Do they make models for them ?

I only see Abyssal Dwarves and no nature army in their store.

No but I think Abyssals will be first on the list should the funding get smashed.

Bringing us back to my original statement that I really would like Demon and Elemental based armies

Forgive me if my intent was not clear. Armies with models.

**Azazelx**

Daedleh wrote:
Right I've spoken to the Stewdio and confirmed that the "missing" armies won't be done officially. They don't want factions without model support other than KoM (nature and abyssals outstanding of course) and any new races they develop will be Mantic originals, not GW substitutes.

He likes and endorses the idea of the rules committee writing, balancing and publishing "fan" lists online (probably on the Mantic website) that would be official in all but name. They won't be printed in the hardback and wouldn't be allowed at official Mantic tournaments, but strongly encouraged and endorsed for casual play and unofficial tournaments.

Is that a good enough compromise for people? :-)

That would work for me.

It'll also get more people I know playing KoW. If Mantic are lucky, it'll have them buying rulebooks, and possibly some Mantic armies. (if the figures can be brought up to scratch).

Additionally, if the rules committee could come up with some "unofficial fan" unit stats for some of the larger/different/cooler stuff that WHFB uses (and just other cool models) that can slot into the existing Official Lists.
(I'm talking about stuff ranging from Empire demi-griffs to TK Ushabti to that Undead Giant from Reaper Bones.)

Bringing some of the KoW-historical lists that are out there into the fold as "officially unofficial" but independent of the generic KoM would be great as well (Romans, Greeks, War of the Roses, etc)

**GrimDork**

Without wanting to put too much strain on the rules committee and what not... what Azazelx says sounds good to me. If the game comes out with simple and effective rules as well as tight well-balanced army lists due at least in part to the efforts of the rules committee collaborating with the author, then any un/official lists created and or vetted by them should have considerable street cred for pickup games and the like.

**Gallahad**

I'm not interested in large scale battles right now, but I wish Mantic luck/money with the KS.

It does seem that the official Mantica centric lists with unofficially official lists is a great compromise. On a bit of a related note, I think this discussion goes to show how hard it is to please everybody. Lots of people are always slamming Mantic (frequently unjustly) for copying GW, and then another group is always wishing Mantic would hurry up and do a better job of copying GW!

**Azazelx**

It comes from the origins of Mantic - proxy models for WHFB, followed by an alternative game (which is very good) for disenfranchised WHFB players with rules to proxy quite a few of their existing armies - in order to build a playerbase.

Many of us still have additional forces we'd like to play in KoW with more ...targeted rules (aside from "use Orcs or Goblins or Kingdoms of Men" - which at this stage are often our best analogues). Fill in those blanks properly, and Mantic will find that more players join the fold.

Does it work? In addition to my WHFB armies, I've bought a Mantic Ogre Army (through KS), a Mantic Undead Army (partially through KS, partially through retail) and an Abyssal Dwarf Army (through retail).

Do I want more players willing to try the game out? Of course!

Once the rest of the WHFB analogues list are in place - go fething nuts with fishmen or anything else!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Does this mean that between KOW Kickstarters 1.0 and 2.0 the only non KS funded KOW releases have been Sveri Egilax and Arhak Soulbinder?

And the Dwarf book - Hellfire and Brimstone.

**monders**

Edited for being needlessly negative and snidey, and not fitting in with the general feeling of the thread!

Apologies!

**AlexHolker**

Gallahad wrote:
On a bit of a related note, I think this discussion goes to show how hard it is to please everybody. Lots of people are always slamming Mantic (frequently unjustly) for copying GW, and then another group is always wishing Mantic would hurry up and do a better job of copying GW!

There is no contradiction here, you're conflating two different aspects of mantic's business: rules and miniatures.

Copying GW for how armies function is good, copying GW for how armies look is bad. Mechanical analogues in the rules means that people who buy your miniatures can use them more easily by using them for counts-as in WHFB, and people who buy your rules can use them more easily by using their WHFB armies as counts-as in Kings of War. Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.

**MongooseMatt**

Prestor Jon wrote:

Are we sure that GW really wants to shrink the scale of WHFB and that the "skirmish" idea isn't just a misinterpretation of the change to 50% Lords and Heroes shrinking the model count on the table for given point values?

Not sure of anything

Just reporting what I have heard. I don't understand a lot of it, but I report it...

**adamsouza**

I can't see GW wanting to sell you less models.

I can see them wanting to sell you more really expensive Lords and Heroes.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Expensive heroes and monsters (both in point values and financial values) could equate to more of a skirmish game in a very roundabout way.

I hope that the rules guys make an officially unofficial fishman list just for all the fish talk going on in here, even if there are no future plans for a fishman line. Gotta put all those Hadross Frenzies (armored shark men) I ordered to use!

**adamsouza**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Expensive heroes and monsters (both in point values and financial values) could equate to more of a skirmish game in a very roundabout way.

Nah, just bigger point values. Look at Nagash, points per dollar value is better than any infantry model. Most established players have all the infantry they need, so they change focus by letting you play more heroes and then selling you cool new heroes.

More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors

**highlord tamburlaine**

I'm certain we'll see a good chunk of those Abyssals get funded, so that should take care of those needs for more demon figures.

I know my eyes will be peeled for some.

**judgedoug**

AlexHolker wrote:
Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.

Not necessarily true. I own a massive High Elf army (actually, not for too much longer, as I'm finally selling it... goodbye 4th edition metal High Elf bowmen and spearmen) and specifically bought a Mantic Elf army because I really liked that they look like nothing else available.
I used to own a big O&G army back in Warhammer 4th/5th and got rid of them ~2000, but then bought like hundreds of Mantic Orcs in 2012 because I love their aesthetic (other than LOTR Uruk Hai, they are my favorite fantasy orcs)

**Aesop the God Awful**

As the rules will stay free I'll probably pass on this, unless they can offer something special. I do play KoW, but with other minis on a different scale.

I guess that means I'll hold my pocket money for the Warpath KS

**judgedoug**

I don't really need any more minis but I will be happy to do the book level pledge, especially as I've had more fun playing KoW in the last two years than I've had playing any other system since maybe the early days of WHFB6.

**Baragash**

judgedoug wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:
Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.

Not necessarily true. I own a massive High Elf army (actually, not for too much longer, as I'm finally selling it... goodbye 4th edition metal High Elf bowmen and spearmen) and specifically bought a Mantic Elf army because I really liked that they look like nothing else available.

Likewise, I have WHF High Elf and Undead (both types) armies and I have also got the Mantic equivalents.

adamsouza wrote:
More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors

The Lower Abyssal Magi should be right up your street then

**Daedleh**

Can I ask that everyone with Facebook respond to this poll please:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/239876549373561/permalink/948265178534691/

**Azazelx**

Eilif wrote:
At least for now, I think you can make any Warhammer army work well if you're willing to mix and match armies a bit. KoW statlines are pretty streamlined and somewhat generic (a good thing in my book) in a way that WHFB aren't "counts-as" is easy to do.
Beastmen can be pretty well represented with a combination of KoM and Abbysal dwaves
Lizardmen could pretty easily be worked from Ork/Goblins and others.
Skaven are tough, but again, I think that may be a mix of Ork/Goblin and Twilight kin or some such.
That said, it would be nice if they'd just do a lizard men and rat-men armies with some specific units and army-special-rules. Would certainly be easy enough to do and bring more folks into the game and neither army is unique to GW.

Thing is, I don't mind slotting in a unit or perhaps two from one force into a different army, but I don't want to end up just making up whole proxy lists out of unit profiless scattered around the existing KoW army lists - at that point I may as well make them up myself.

I'd rather have some "proper" lists, so "officially unofficial" works for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baragash wrote:
Orcs + Ogres make a good fit for Beastmen, particularly as Orcs and Ogre Braves use 25mm bases and Orcs are a low discipline force.

Wait, wut?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattjgilbert wrote:

I always fully intended to update my ratmen, lizardmen and WoC fanlists once we'd sorted the official lists. The committee will now jointly do that to make sure they are redone using exactly the same methodology as the official rules (making them as unofficially official as we can).

That sounds fantastic. Much better than "one guy on the internet who knows people at Mantic came up with this" when trying to sell it to an opponent.

**AlexHolker**

Baragash wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
More on topic though, I'm still rooting for Demon models. It's a fantasy staple that Mantica is still missing, and I want something Mantic priced to field as Pink Horrors

The Lower Abyssal Magi should be right up your street then

I'd rather just see Magi. The Horrors have the same statline as humans, as I recall, so something like Might & Magic's Academy faction would be nice as a distinctly ahistorical ranged unit of spellslinging Apprentice Wizards.

**Azazelx**

AlexHolker wrote:

Copying GW for how armies function is good, copying GW for how armies look is bad. Mechanical analogues in the rules means that people who buy your miniatures can use them more easily by using them for counts-as in WHFB, and people who buy your rules can use them more easily by using their WHFB armies as counts-as in Kings of War. Aesthetic analogues are bad because you're still spending just as much money on sculpting and tooling, but you're only selling to an already exploited market. Somebody who wants a Generic Elf army will not buy your Generic Elf army if they have already bought a Games Workshop High Elf army a decade ago. It is better to look for new, promising markets than to settle for GW's leftovers.

There's also the opposite of this. If the figures with a similar aesthetic are well done (concept, sculpt, production) then GW players will start to buy them as alternatives to buying the "official" models. It's been noted many times that Mantic's undead have almost become a staple of WHFB armies these days, especially given that GW's ending of tournaments and support means that the "GW only" rule means nothing to most people out there.

I have a pretty solid army worth of GW undead, but I've been more than happy to bulk them out (double the size!) with Mantic's offerings.

Sure, I won't be buying their elves or TK, but that's not because I already have a bunch of high (and dark) elves - it's because I think Mantic's elves are crap (fail on the triptych above). I've actually bought more GW models in order to flesh out my KoW elf armies.

I'll be happy either way, to be honest. If the promised "officially unofficial" army lists come to light, I'll retune my other WHFB armies into KoW ones. If they also release some decent quality figure analogues, I'll add some to those armies (as I've done with my Undead, CD, Ogres, etc)

edit - spelling

**squall018**

I'm with Azazelx on his above point. My VC army is about half mantic. If they did some cool beastmen minis, then I would probably buy those minis and play WHFB with them.