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Confirmed. I'm on the rules committee with Baragash and ScarletSquig.

People like their regiments and hordes to physically have banners and musicians. It makes them look "complete" and aesthetically pleasing. If you model your units with command but don't take them in-game then there's the bonus headache of remembering which ones have them and which ones don't.

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.

So what do we do?

We could drop their points values down. However, if we drop them down to the point where they're good value then they become auto-include, particularly on high defence units. At that point they cease to become an optional upgrade.

We could try adjusting their points on a per-unit basis, but that could get confusing fast and with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

We could try giving them a completely different rule, rather than +1/-1 nerve but that's going down a complication road that we don't want. We could introduce huge imbalances, or simply make command auto-include on some units and daft-to-take on others, so back to square one.

The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

That abyssal stuff looks god-awful like skylanders or something

which is strange cause i think the abyssal dwarfs are awesome

I actually really like the Abyssal's look, but the Abys Dwarfs do nothing for me.

Taste and all that.

Speaking of, does anyone know the artiist who is drawing the Abyssal concept art? S/He's done some awesome stuff for Mantic in the past. I hope they stick around, whoever they are.

Additionally, no more upgrades for standards/ musician removes a major headache when it comes to multibasing a unit.

It is now pretty straightforward just to model a unit in base blocks of 10 and put 2 together for a regiment or 4 together for a horde.

Its a move away from individual models within a unit having an in-game purpose and a move towards complete abstraction of 1 unit = 1 model as far as the game is concerned.

Fairly certain the Abyssal concepts are Heath Foley again.

 scarletsquig wrote:


Fairly certain the Abyssal concepts are Heath Foley again.

Cool. If Mantic ever do a graphic novel he needs to be the artist.

As to the standards and musicians, this is great news! I was just considering rebasing all of my skaven onto multibases for KoW (and cause they'll look cooler on display that way) and was thinking that standards would look kind of cool not always in the front of the unit. Maybe on a rock in the center, etc. Also fun to put the leader in the back cause that's how they roll

I havent read every page of this so sorry if this has been answered but are the abysall's hard plastic?

If I had the cash I would be very tempted by the rulebook and the Abysalls if they are in hard plastic. Sadly the kickstarter came to early for me.

Yes, they are hard plastic on sprues.

Thanks Alex.

Pending when cash is available it will likely have a pledge manager into next year.

I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

 Daedleh wrote:

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.
...
The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

Will Ogre unit point costs be modified in line with this change? (They usually ignore enemy musicians).

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

They are more like Devils than demons, and I have a pretty good idea where the artist got inspiration from

 Daedleh wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

There are only two reasons why you should ever have points with a minimum resolution greater than one: because your ruleset is compatible with another ruleset, and so you need to keep the same points scale for legacy reasons; or because the units you use for points correlate with some in-universe unit of currency (like gold in Blood Bowl). Neither applies here, so there is no reason why you should have a unit cost 200 points out of 1500 instead of just 40 points out of 300.

 adamsouza wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really want to get the abyssal army starter, but I really don't like the mouths.

I don't want the demons to have goofy smiles.

They are more like Devils than demons, and I have a pretty good idea where the artist got inspiration from

The mouths are still out of place.



The champion is very much a devil, and the mouth looks fine. Not overly large and comical



The oversized mouth and elongated chin just make the model look goofy.

They look like little grinning imps. Cannon fodder demons.

I'm hoping as we move into more imposing troops they become a little less grinny.

I'm a bit fond of the design, as it brings back that 90s computer game art style I always liked.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
...with points only being in multiples of 5 then there's not much to play with.

Then why are they multiples of 5?

For simplicities sake. Do you really want to start adding up various 6 & 7 & 12 & 13 point upgrades?

There are only two reasons why you should ever have points with a minimum resolution greater than one: because your ruleset is compatible with another ruleset, and so you need to keep the same points scale for legacy reasons; or because the units you use for points correlate with some in-universe unit of currency (like gold in Blood Bowl). Neither applies here, so there is no reason why you should have a unit cost 200 points out of 1500 instead of just 40 points out of 300.

It's undeniably more simple/straightforward though, which is I think is what Deadleh is saying, and is part of how KoW does things. The only negative point I can see of this is for the people who enjoy scribbling army lists onto paper and trying to squeeze in things as part of the army building process, and that now there is no excuse to have to use the rather odd top-hatted individual found the Orc sprue for the musician.

I think it's also to maintain the "feel" of a big game - which is what KoW aspires to be. I know that coming from a Warhammer Fantasy/40k background, hearing about 50 point battles in Warmachine and 6-point battles in SAGA seemed odd.

Using 5-point segments also seems easier to tally somehow.

In any case, there are "Legacy" reasons - and that's to maintain some relationship with the established KoW 1 ruleset.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:

At the moment both banners and musicians are (mostly) overpriced. Those 25 points per unit very, very quickly add up into a whole new unit. Most people I know only take musicians on a select few units and never take banners. 15 points for +1 nerve is pretty naff for most units. The points are much better put towards buying new units altogether or an artefact or two.
...
The simplest option was the remove the options altogether and allow players to model their units freely. They have the option of taking the relevant effects (+1/-1) through Magic artefacts if they so want.

Will Ogre unit point costs be modified in line with this change? (They usually ignore enemy musicians).

Everything is having it's points cost reviewed.

I think its something like the Dungeon Keeper game series that I'm reminded of.

 Azazelx wrote:
I think it's also to maintain the "feel" of a big game - which is what KoW aspires to be. I know that coming from a Warhammer Fantasy/40k background, hearing about 50 point battles in Warmachine and 6-point battles in SAGA seemed odd.

Using 5-point segments also seems easier to tally somehow.

In any case, there are "Legacy" reasons - and that's to maintain some relationship with the established KoW 1 ruleset.

Furthermore, it also leaves them the option of tinkering with point costs under 5 for fine-tuning/new releases/FAQ&Errata/scenarios/etc.. at some point, even if they don't do it right now in the first splash.

I don't like that KS are making tablet users use the mobile site but on the plus side you can see all the images a creator has uploaded even ones that aren't posted yet so it looks like next goal is Drech'nok in metal - the horns look different to the DS one so probably a few options in the set

I hope they offer a resin upgrade on that character just to save the hour or so it will take me to prep and pin the wings.

Yeah, metal and wings was a nightmare on the Basilean Angel characters.

As long as the attachment point is done correctly (ideally one piece for both wings and a very large square peg/slot to glue them into) it should be okay.

Just using the Dungeon Saga mini is probably the easier option.

Maybe restic wings and metal body? The material was fine on the gargoyles wings so should be ok on Drech'nok.

Incidentally, on the Musician/Banner front... I know I am a brand new guy to the game, but from my perspective having just read the old free rules .pdf... it instantly occurred to me that the two functionally cancel each-other out anyway. If all players put both, in all units, they have essentially done nothing but shrink the size of the game, yeah? Call me crazy but auto-cancelling design mechanics normally never make it to print in the first place. :-p

I do actually have a noobie question about the game's charge into combat/step back mechanic.

I feel like the free rules .pdf only once stumbles on rule clarity and is otherwise incredibly effective at conveying simple, but strategic rules. But charging is in dire need of a few more diagrams.

In games where positioning means everything, the charge rule seems very casual in describing "nudging" or pushing away other enemy units when you fit yourself into melee combat.

As a rule, does making sure your units align in combat trump all other priorities? IE, push away anything you need to to make those combat units sit totally flush? If so, who gets to decide what constitutes a fair pushing away of models? When you retreat your 1" after combat do you try to return models to their original positions, etc?

If someone could clarify it would help me really decide if this system is the right fit for my wife and I, as I hope it to be.

From the comments

Mantic
@ John:

- The Abyssals in this and the Abyssal in Dungeon are new sculpts, and entirely different molds and material. They will be compatible, but they are different. We're hoping to add all the units from Dungeon Saga into the army list.

as expected but good to have it in black and white for those wondering


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mantic
@ BattleDice - The Twilight Kin won't be making an appearance, no. We want to do more work on them first. Really pleased you like the Dark Knights though, I'll see how we are for stock and find out

I hope that means stuff like Undead Archers show up as well. Those look tremendous painted up, as per the DS KS.