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 Riquende wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

That really doesn't help anything, because then you're losing another hero or warmachine. Not a great trade-off.

Another bemoaned 'tactic' was a swarm of mounted standard bearers rushing off to hunt warmachines; so this solution actually addresses two problems instead of one! Are you really using all your hero slots every game? I can't say I've ever approached even half of the heroes I have room for. I can't accept it's a trade-off; it's just a new way of using units that were previously being abused. Hopefully they get do get a 'hero' profile with a few more attacks etc to account for a slight points bump.

You're quoting someone else there. Eilif I think.

Your 0-3 solution doesn't work for me as it's unlike anything else in the 'FO' rules. The proposed solution fits far better, achieves the aim of limiting spam armies, and has no real downsides that I can see, unless for some reason you were spamming heroes (like the aforementioned flag-waving cannon-hunters)

Also remember that (unless it's been said that it's changing, which is possible), a regular unit allows you to take one hero AND one warmachine, not one or the other.

It might be different to everything else in the FO rules, but if it works...

Honestly, I'm happy to stop arguing at this stage. I'd like to see (and play) the Beta rules and play with Beta army lists when they come out. That way I could offer more informed feedback - which hopefully can be taken on board - since at the moment I'm grumbling about something that sounds like it'll be quite a negative without (being able to see) the whole picture. It's just important that the rules committee don't treat non-tourney players as an afterthought - while balanced rules are a must, the polar extreme opposite of GW's attitude isn't that great either, since it's just as cold to a different bunch of players.


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 adamsouza wrote:
I would like larger undead, like Undead Ogres.

Something beefier than an Ogre Zombie/Skeleton, like Ogre Revenants

Undead Mammoths!

A Mammoth Revenant would make a suitable Undead chariot

 DaveC wrote:
Ah well at least this time it's being done digitally and their digital sculptor usually does a good job getting the concepts and miniature to match.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/884/491/7827ca40b1ca4a927fdb5cbda795f6af_large.jpg?1415629141

That sculpt still looks like crap, though. Instead of sculpting the corner of the mouth like the corner of a mouth, attaching to the upper and lower lip, he sculpted it like they are dimples, attaching well above the upper lip.

As for the undead cavalry, Mantic needs to realise that a vampire's fangs should not be visible when the vampire's mouth is shut. That's why all their previous vampires look like buck-toothed morons.

Has this update been posted yet?

#14

With this latest goal broken, we now have the funds to produce the Kings of War Campaign Book and the digital platform for logging results.

This new book will present all-new background for a particular events in Mantica’s history, where your actions will dictate the outcome of the battle and the effects forever.

We will include a copy of the campaign book digitally free in every pledge of Living Legends ($50) and up.

The Necromancer Lord Mortibris has ascended using the wisdom of Valandor, torn from the pages of his own Tome. The terrible power unleased has sundered the very fabric of the world, creating a new outlet for the powers of the Abyss, spewing out the creatures of darkness to besmirch the world above. The good peoples of the world must unite in the face of this new threat, or face extinction.





So, where are we off to next? You know it – it’s all about those Undead Soul Reavers.



Click here to read more about the next goal.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/kings-of-war-fantasy-battle-game-2nd-edition/posts/1059638

You can also add on a physical copy of the book, and a character pack of heroes from the main storyline too…

This is the face a vampire makes when he comes home in the morning and sees the hunchback had taken a dump on his coffin.

Not sure if I should discipline...

OR MURDER.


The more I look at the sketch the more I have to agree, damn hunchback!

Yeah I dont like the teeth sticking out of the open mouth thing either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrimDork wrote:
Such as kingdoms of men for samurai nabbing some ogres to use as oni.

I think Ogres are included in the KOM list as standard anyway.

I think Mantic need to realize that their concept artists are the lifeblood of their business, and put the appropriate time and effort into finding (and paying for) the best ones they can find.

This is not a blanket condemnation. They have hired good ones - often, in my opinion - and the resulting minis are the main reason I buy Mantic's products. But as has been said over and over, Mantic's success with concept art has been hit and miss. And not just in terms of the final product not matching the concept art, either. There are some concepts that should never have been taken seriously in the first place, and either revised or replaced by the work of a better artist, rather than used as is.

Somehow a start up with few financial resources like Minion miniatures managed to do the legwork of finding and hiring a concept artist whose work easily ranks at the top of the entire field. Not only equal to the best of what Mantic's concept artists have done, but equal to anything that GW's have done. Frankly, I'd say his concept work frequently surpasses both.

If Minion can afford to do that, it suggests to me that this is either a time or a money issue. If its a time issue, Mantic may simply not have invested the time and effort required to go out and look for the best concept artists, or at least, not to do so rigorously and routinely, just sometimes. If it's a cost-saving issue, I don't get it. Any mini company worth its salt should be prepared to pay what it takes to get the best concept art. Trying to save by going cheap with lesser talent is penny wise, pound foolish. Even the best sculptors can't turn a bad concept drawing into a great figure, after all, particularly if they're being faithful to it.

I would pay for mounted Batman knights. The other concepts, not so much (not a fan of Soul Reavers in the game currently, they hit crazy hard but they're so expensive pointswise, and if cavalry as a rule is going up, then...)

Yeah I have no idea why Mantic has such bad concept art. I agree that they have some good pieces, but almost everything I've seen looks... Amateurish. Especially compared to things like, as you mentioned, Minion.

Well, I had to jump in for the rules and extras. Don't need any more models at this point, but I'll happily support some better rules...

Valete,

JohnS

I am not really familiar with Kings of War. Do you guys know where I can find information about army playstyle between each race? that would help to chose a starter set with the kickstarter

XC18 wrote:
I am not really familiar with Kings of War. Do you guys know where I can find information about army playstyle between each race? that would help to chose a starter set with the kickstarter

The rules are all available online:
http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

KoW Stategy Thread in the Mantic section. On top of the excellent advice contained within there are links to guides for new players on Orcs, Undead, Kindgom of Man, and Abyssal Dwarves. You should check it out.

Cheers for the link adamsouza. Interesting stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
Yeah I have no idea why Mantic has such bad concept art. I agree that they have some good pieces, but almost everything I've seen looks... Amateurish. Especially compared to things like, as you mentioned, Minion.

Because, (as with most things) new ideas are usually a quick doodle on a bit of paper and the rest is left up to the imagination.

Mymearan wrote:
Yeah I have no idea why Mantic has such bad concept art. I agree that they have some good pieces, but almost everything I've seen looks... Amateurish. Especially compared to things like, as you mentioned, Minion.

This. I really want to get into the game and almost did in the last KS.....but the miniatures and concept art just keeps putting me off. I keep hearing how good the rules are and the game play video in the KS itself looks good, but I cannot think of a single army where at least half the range does not want me to gauge my eyes out with a wooden spoon. I could use proxies from another range but it does defeat the point of KoW being an affordable mass unit game.

Haha, well if you have that kind of reaction to the minis then it's probably best to stick clear

I think the appeal of KoW is two-fold: A clean/concise and balanced rule set combined with a cheap miniatures and cheap overall mass-battle army cost.

If you like the miniatures I think its an absolute no-brainer, if you don't I guess it depends on what kind of miniature game you want to play. Fortunately Mantic are very relaxed about people using non-Mantic minis, even in official tournaments - I think one last year was won by someone who didn't have a single Mantic miniature in their army. Personally, I think $50 inc. P&P (which equates very well into £ with current exchange rates) is definitely worth a punt for a new rules set, but YMMV.

I guess it's a bit like Marmite- you love it or you hate it lol.

 Denilsta wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
Yeah I have no idea why Mantic has such bad concept art. I agree that they have some good pieces, but almost everything I've seen looks... Amateurish. Especially compared to things like, as you mentioned, Minion.

This. I really want to get into the game and almost did in the last KS.....but the miniatures and concept art just keeps putting me off. I keep hearing how good the rules are and the game play video in the KS itself looks good, but I cannot think of a single army where at least half the range does not want me to gauge my eyes out with a wooden spoon. I could use proxies from another range but it does defeat the point of KoW being an affordable mass unit game.

Depends how important the word "official" is to you. I use figures from a wide variety of manufacturers, as do a lot of us who play and post here. The point (to me) of KoW is that it's a good fantasy mass battle ruleset, and I can use almost all of my GW/Warhammer Forge/AoW/Reaper/Mantic/Perry/Rackham/Foundry/etc/yougettheidea figures in it.

 Denilsta wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
Yeah I have no idea why Mantic has such bad concept art. I agree that they have some good pieces, but almost everything I've seen looks... Amateurish. Especially compared to things like, as you mentioned, Minion.

This. I really want to get into the game and almost did in the last KS.....but the miniatures and concept art just keeps putting me off. I keep hearing how good the rules are and the game play video in the KS itself looks good, but I cannot think of a single army where at least half the range does not want me to gauge my eyes out with a wooden spoon. I could use proxies from another range but it does defeat the point of KoW being an affordable mass unit game.

Alternately, regardless of what figures one uses or the ultimate cost of an army, one could be interested in KoW as a *better* (fully realizing that "better" is subjective) set of rules than the bodged together, increasingly big kit-centric, rules that WHFB have become.

I certainly don't plan on buying a new army with Mantic models at this point, since I have several large GW armies, but I'll be buying the rules and. hopefully, getting some of my local gaming group to play them instead of WHFB.

Valete,

JohnS

The more people playing the game, the more chance Mantic will sell an army in the future and the more rule books they will sell in the future.

Can someone who already plays help me out with something I had mentioned earlier?

Namely, can someone clarify some of the finese of charging in KoW? Its the sole area I feel like the rules don't do justice to, as things like "nudge an enemy unit so that you can be in base contact" doesn't feel very specific.

Likewise, if multiple units charge in, you "share" frontage with both units, but which one gets moved in order to fit both?

If the only way to physically fit your unit in base contact with your target involves pushing several other untis out of the way, do you? Do you just try to get as much base-to-base contact as possible?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Namely, can someone clarify some of the finese of charging in KoW? Its the sole area I feel like the rules don't do justice to, as things like "nudge an enemy unit so that you can be in base contact" doesn't feel very specific.

Likewise, if multiple units charge in, you "share" frontage with both units, but which one gets moved in order to fit both?

If the only way to physically fit your unit in base contact with your target involves pushing several other untis out of the way, do you? Do you just try to get as much base-to-base contact as possible?

One of the requirements is that " the unit has physically enough space to move into contact with the target. "

So if you would like to charge a target that you can see but there's things in front of it and the area between those things is say 60mm and you frontage is 100mm you won't be able to charge them.

.......... |target| ...|screen| 60mm |screen| ,.......|you 100mm|

You cannot charge Target because there's not enough room for You to fit between the two Screens. You'd have to charge a Screen (or not charge at all)

But if both of those Screens wish to charge You, they can:

"If two or more of your units are able to charge the same enemy unit, they can do so, as long as they can fit. Just issue a simultaneous order to all of the units that are charging the same target.
Once contact is made, any units that have charged the same facing of the target will have to share the space available as equally as possible, so shuffle them sideways as shown in Diagram E.
If there isn’t enough space for all of the units to fit against the facing of the target they are charging, some of the units will not charge and must be given a different order."

Since you can always premeasure in KoW, those Screens can premeasure their charge and make sure they can both fit against You without overlapping other units. If both could not fit (say there's a big rock on each side of You and slightly ahead), only one Screen could charge You.

Update:

Basilean Heavy Arbalest Warmachine - $205,000

While the prowess of the Paladin orders and the stolid strength of the Men at Arms of Basilea are what win many a war for the Hegemony,
it is the Arbalest that wins many of their battles. Easily capable of decimating a unit of infantry, or blunting the most determined cavalry charge,
this ingenious war engine is the pride of the military academy of Basilea. Operating on a complex tension system, this devastating device
hurls projectiles with such force that almost nothing will stop them.

The Basilean Heavy Arbalest Warmachine can be added to your pledge for $15. One will also be included in the Basilean Mega-Starter Army ($100).

Forces of the Abyss Iffrit - $210,000

All Abyssal creatures are born of the flames, and most have some kind of pyromantic talent, but none are the equal of the Iffrits. Born in and moulded
by the deepest and hottest furnace flames of the infernal pit, Iffrits are constantly suffused in flickering, demonic flames. They often transport themselves forwards on a
column of fire, and shoot massive and deadly fireballs from their clawed fists which burn hot enough to reduce even a fully armoured warrior to mere dust and
ashes in an eyeblink. Iffrits are thankfully rare, but where they do appear, doom will surely follow for all those who face them.

The Abyssal Iffrit can be added to your pledge for $8. One Iffrit It will also be included in the Forces of the Abyss Mega-Starter Army ($100).

Seems like both of these could be hit by tomorrow with any luck.

So a 100mm frontage essentially needs to fit flush if it is going to legally charge another unit with 100mm frontage?

In theory doesn't this mean even the smallest of screening units utterly protects something behind it if it even denies you 1mm worth of frontage?

No, you don't need to fit flush but you do need to move into contact with the target unit. If you can't fit through the screening units' gaps (60mm in judgedougs example) then you can't charge.

Ok, so my question then becomes, "what constitutes contact"? How much of the base needs to fit?

But if there was a single screening unit covering say half of the target, but you had enough range/ room to get around it, that works?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Ok, so my question then becomes, "what constitutes contact"? How much of the base needs to fit?

1mm+, though it's very rare for people to try and claim something like that (it's something that I want clarified for the next edition) - usually it's a good 10mm or so that people want. I personally recommend a house rule of 10mm+ contact.

GrimDork wrote:But if there was a single screening unit covering say half of the target, but you had enough range/ room to get around it, that works?

Yes.

 Rolt wrote:
Update:

Basilean Heavy Arbalest Warmachine - $205,000

While the prowess of the Paladin orders and the stolid strength of the Men at Arms of Basilea are what win many a war for the Hegemony,
it is the Arbalest that wins many of their battles. Easily capable of decimating a unit of infantry, or blunting the most determined cavalry charge,
this ingenious war engine is the pride of the military academy of Basilea. Operating on a complex tension system, this devastating device
hurls projectiles with such force that almost nothing will stop them.

The Basilean Heavy Arbalest Warmachine can be added to your pledge for $15. One will also be included in the Basilean Mega-Starter Army ($100).

This is pretty much what I mean that Mantic have a problem with their concepts. I fear that this model will not look good even if it follows the concept art fully. The concept art isnt' good enough. The perspective is weird (why isn't that projectile straight? And why isn't the bow 90 degrees to the carriage?) and the proportiona of the arbalest makes it looks will look like a toy instead of a mean war machine. And once again, the stupid vizors on the basilean helmets. Why make a vizor that blocks your vision when it doesn't even protects your face?