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Made in se
Executing Exarch






After seeing this weeks Tyranid release, and the rumors that it was actually planned to be in the Tyranid codex but got dropped because of the Chapterhouse thing, I'm starting to get my hopes up. What if GW realized that Tyranids needed a drop pod, and wanted to put one in, but for various reasons couldn't make it happen in time, thus making the codex less-than-intended until this release? Had these units been in the codex from the beginning, there would've been a lot less complaining from Tyranid players. Recent codex releases have been underpowered compared to Eldar and Tau, but relative to each other, my impression is that they're all on a similar power level, or close enough. They are also relying much more on USRs and less on complicated army-specific rules, something that might seem bad from the perspective of the more "flavorful" rules they replace, but very good from the perspective of making the game cleaner, faster and easier to play. Are the rules team making an effort to consolidate rules, simplify the game and bring overall codex power levels down to as close to even as they can manage? To me, this is a positive direction, and I'm hoping for more releases in the same vein.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/04 13:55:09


 
   
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With this standard I hope they do this to all codexes instead of just Tyranids. Such as wolves get wulfen back or IG get marbo/ all the other artillery back, or deldar getting vect back. Instead of giving more stuff to Tyrnaids which already have a bunch of dataslates and formations.
   
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Swift Swooping Hawk






As much fun as it is to bash companies, 40k is a very complex (in terms of amount of units, rules and expansions) game. If we want them to fix what is wrong it will take some time and an overhaul of ALL codices. Also they will need to remove quite some things to allow to fix problems, and people will not like this - like removing the old tyranid drop pod or the HQs and inquisition from the Grey Knight Codex.

But I think if they introduce needed elements like right now with the Tyranids, and the GK codex, and the Assassin and Inquisition digital dataslates they might be able to do it at some point.

In the past they were just too slow and when they released the last Codex the first one was already broken once again. With the digital releases and their release speed it might become better.

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Stuff like the Dark Angels flyers make it clear that GW knows nothing.

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oz of the north wrote:
With this standard I hope they do this to all codexes instead of just Tyranids. Such as wolves get wulfen back or IG get marbo/ all the other artillery back, or deldar getting vect back. Instead of giving more stuff to Tyrnaids which already have a bunch of dataslates and formations.


Its a good move by GW. But yeah, lets see if such releases start to happen with the other factions.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Portugal

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Stuff like the Dark Angels flyers make it clear that GW knows nothing.


Well in one hand, you are totally right, but I'd like to remind that Dark Angels was the very first 6th edition codex, brand spanking new. Yes, it really sucks the DA players got the short end of the stick, but that might have been a case of GW not being aware how the heck to properly do the flyers.

And once again, in the other hand, GW could have released an errata to fix the DA flyers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/04 15:05:07


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 Murenius wrote:
As much fun as it is to bash companies, 40k is a very complex (in terms of amount of units, rules and expansions) game. If we want them to fix what is wrong it will take some time and an overhaul of ALL codices. Also they will need to remove quite some things to allow to fix problems, and people will not like this - like removing the old tyranid drop pod or the HQs and inquisition from the Grey Knight Codex.

But I think if they introduce needed elements like right now with the Tyranids, and the GK codex, and the Assassin and Inquisition digital dataslates they might be able to do it at some point.

In the past they were just too slow and when they released the last Codex the first one was already broken once again. With the digital releases and their release speed it might become better.


This argument might hold water if GW was trying to cut down on the complexity of the game to improve gameplay. But they arent. 6th added more complicated additions to the game than any other edition in the history of the game. 7th didn't even try to scale back 6th's extravagance. The codexes have been scaled back only because GW's obsession with IP (look at what models and HQs have been cut).

Mycetic spores for Tyranids werent a problem. They were the opposite. They solved a lot of problems the army and added a LOT to the flexibility of the army. They were not cut because they were trying to fix problems or simply the game, they were cut because of lack of models.

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GW better then we think? I doubt that. I think everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they do now comes down to "How much will this make GW?". It would not surprise me in the least that they have a marketing department with an algorithm that says how much it cost GW to make a model, promote it, ship it, etc. and the amount of profit margin GW is expected to make. If the new model/product meets that threshold, it goes into production.

To me, this is the only possible explanation for the way they have been pricing and releasing items over the last couple years. Remember that the Bugs had a "drop pod" (Myceantic spore?) in the previous Codex to the current one (along with Deepstrike rules). Forge World even made a model for it. GW decided to remove the DS rules from the bugs, AND the Myceantic Spores from the current codex. If they return in the new codex, great! But don't think for a moment that it was all part of some kind of "plan".

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Well in one hand, you are totally right, but I'd like to remind that Dark Angels was the very first 6th edition codex, brand spanking new. Yes, it really sucks the DA players got the short end of the stick, but that might have been a case of GW not being aware how the heck to properly do the flyers.


CSM was the first book with DA coming right after, but the order of the books and whether or not they were the "first releases in the new edition" is somewhat irrelevant when you consider that; A. both Vetock and Kelly had had the 6th ed. rules for quite some time before writing those books and still failed (kelly more so than Vetock imo) to take said rules fully into account and that B. Vetock was also responsible for the Tau release of doom shortly thereafter.

Honestly, I don't actually consider DA a "bad" book necessarily (unlike the CSM book I actually quite liked the DA book when it was first rerleased), it just pales in comparison to the books where the authors remembered what edition they were writing for.

After seeing this weeks Tyranid release, and the rumors that it was actually planned to be in the Tyranid codex but got dropped because of the Chapterhouse thing, I'm starting to get my hopes up. What if GW realized that Tyranids needed a drop pod, and wanted to put one in, but for various reasons couldn't make it happen in time, thus making the codex less-than-intended until this release? Had these units been in the codex from the beginning, there would've been a lot less complaining from Tyranid players. Recent codex releases have been underpowered compared to Eldar and Tau, but relative to each other, my impression is that they're all on a similar power level, or close enough. They are also relying much more on USRs and less on complicated army-specific rules, something that might seem bad from the perspective of the more "flavorful" rules they replace, but very good from the perspective of making the game cleaner, faster and easier to play. Are the rules team making an effort to consolidate rules, simplify the game and bring overall codex power levels down to as close to even as they can manage? To me, this is a positive direction, and I'm hoping for more releases in the same vein.


I actually mentioned something very much like this when the 'Nids book landed and I still feel like that was the case. There wasn't quite enough time to get that out so they shipped without it and are fixing that issue after the fact. Provided they continue to go back and "fix" things like this (CSM also REALLY need D.pods), I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt but only time will tell. My fear is that instead of this being a temporary issue/fix caused by the timing of the lawsuit, that it will just become a regular thing for book releases. More or less on the order of micro-purchases for online games.

As far as the rules go - I would say that this is actually a step back. Yes they are relying on more USRs and fewer codex specific rules, but they are also pushing us back to the days where, in order to play your army, you needed:

1. BRB
2. Army codex
3. Latest rules supplement
4. updated FAQs
5. All of the various Chapter approved articles your list comes from

That, imo, is a step backwards. Plus, it's not like the USRs themselves are streamlined either. There are so many USRs that exist to only to confer several other USRs. and there are also some wonky interactions between several USRs, so no, I don't necessarily take this as them "cleaning up" the rules.

As for the "power level", the first few books in 6th also followed a general "toning down" trend. GW (and mind you, I'm usually one of the people defending GW) still managed to reverse that trend. Maybe I'll be proven wrong once all the books are in the 7th ed. format but we'll have to wait and see. I'm *very cautiously* optimistic.

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 Tamwulf wrote:
GW better then we think? I doubt that. I think everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they do now comes down to "How much will this make GW?". It would not surprise me in the least that they have a marketing department with an algorithm that says how much it cost GW to make a model, promote it, ship it, etc. and the amount of profit margin GW is expected to make. If the new model/product meets that threshold, it goes into production.

GASP! it almost sounds like they're some kind of business or something. The horror.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

I suppose GW could be starting to respond to customer requests, it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. Remember that the last fiscal report showed an 11% decrease in revenue, and obviously GW's main motivation is maximizing profits (as is any company's goal). GW put out a lot of their heaviest hitters during the last fiscal cycle too- 7th edition, the Space Marine Codex (priced at a nice extra $10 compared to all other 40k codexes), and the Imperial Knight titan were all big sellers that are potentially difficult to repeat in a yearly cycle, so their loss from the profits may indeed be significant.

But I mean most of this stuff isn't rocket science. Contrary to Mr. Kirby's preamble, market research is a good thing. Responding to what customers want (to a reasonable degree) will increase sales...and it's not like 40k customers haven't been clamoring for the same new things for years now...or in the case of spore pods, things that the game *used* to have.

So yeah, hopefully this will begin a turn-around for GW. We will have to see how the next few releases go.
   
Made in gb
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Devon, UK

A stopped clock is still correct twice a day.

No, there's too much evidence to suggest they have lost their grip on what people loved about their product.

I would be willing to entertain the fact that the recent financial performance has perhaps convinced them to embark on some changes, and I would perhaps concede that the Tyrannocyte is a symptom of this, but let's not count our chickens.

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crcovar wrote:

GASP! it almost sounds like they're some kind of business or something. The horror.


This. It's a company, it's about earning money, paying salaries and making profit... If you want enthusiasts making a game go to kickstarter and play small indie games, but it will lack in release frequency and sustainability in most cases. Once they get successful they will become companies like any other, they will have to hire people, pay their salaries, pay an office since the garage won't work anymore... and so on.

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Portugal

Tycho wrote:
Well in one hand, you are totally right, but I'd like to remind that Dark Angels was the very first 6th edition codex, brand spanking new. Yes, it really sucks the DA players got the short end of the stick, but that might have been a case of GW not being aware how the heck to properly do the flyers.


CSM was the first book with DA coming right after, but the order of the books and whether or not they were the "first releases in the new edition" is somewhat irrelevant when you consider that; A. both Vetock and Kelly had had the 6th ed. rules for quite some time before writing those books and still failed (kelly more so than Vetock imo) to take said rules fully into account and that B. Vetock was also responsible for the Tau release of doom shortly thereafter.


Welp, my bad, you are absolutely right. Completely forgot about CSM being the first book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/04 17:12:22


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 Murenius wrote:
crcovar wrote:

GASP! it almost sounds like they're some kind of business or something. The horror.


This. It's a company, it's about earning money, paying salaries and making profit... If you want enthusiasts making a game go to kickstarter and play small indie games, but it will lack in release frequency and sustainability in most cases. Once they get successful they will become companies like any other, they will have to hire people, pay their salaries, pay an office since the garage won't work anymore... and so on.


I'm pretty sure most businesses also do general Market Research rather then proudly mentioning they IGNORE all of it, and prefer long term gains over slash and burn market tactics for survival.
   
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 Murenius wrote:
crcovar wrote:

GASP! it almost sounds like they're some kind of business or something. The horror.


This. It's a company, it's about earning money, paying salaries and making profit... If you want enthusiasts making a game go to kickstarter and play small indie games, but it will lack in release frequency and sustainability in most cases. Once they get successful they will become companies like any other, they will have to hire people, pay their salaries, pay an office since the garage won't work anymore... and so on.


I don't think anyone is faulting GW for making money.

What people fault them for is making money at the expense of the game and the customers.

Anyways, the new Tyranid thing is probably very welcome for Nids players. I'm going to hold my applause until they seem to make a trend of correcting previous mistakes, but really, this should have been a release some time ago, and never been removed from the already underwhelming Nids.

Still, I suppose it does look decent, if Nids are your thing.

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I have a question (if it can be known yet) of long-term Tyranid players....

Is the new Mycetic Spore any different from the rules for the one from previous editions?

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 TheDraconicLord wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Stuff like the Dark Angels flyers make it clear that GW knows nothing.


Well in one hand, you are totally right, but I'd like to remind that Dark Angels was the very first 6th edition codex, brand spanking new. Yes, it really sucks the DA players got the short end of the stick, but that might have been a case of GW not being aware how the heck to properly do the flyers.

And once again, in the other hand, GW could have released an errata to fix the DA flyers.
Chaos Space Marines were actually the first 6E codex, DA's came out six or seven months after the 6E rules release.


I think GW knew that if they came out with a drop pod of some sort for Tyranids, they could sell them like hotcakes, and had to get their IP and legal affairs in order. I would say however that with the more recent releases, yes its true that for the most part they aren't particularly overpowering, most of them have a large number of internal balance issues, and a number had some very unwarranted nerfs (poor, poor Hydra) and power reductions, making them, at least in my eyes, somewhat more one-dimensional in terms of what you see on a table.

EDIT: the core issue with having to dream up a whole new drop-pod unit and pretend like the Mycetic spore never existed, leaving Nid players in a lurch for so long, is also largely a failure on GW's part to meet a market demand that they created and doing everything possible to ensure a messy legal issue was going to happen. I'm not sure that them finally getting around to fixing all that is really "GW coming to its senses".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/05 00:10:55


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 Psienesis wrote:
I have a question (if it can be known yet) of long-term Tyranid players....

Is the new Mycetic Spore any different from the rules for the one from previous editions?

Yes, it's more of an actual unit now rather than delivery option. It has significantly more firepower than before and can actually move and assault things independently, although it is paying more points for the changes. I'm overjoyed with the new spores though, they sound amazing.

   
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Nah, they're not very good at it.

So first it looked like they were just making a new codex every time they had new unit choices, which was obviously not a good idea for small releases. Then with the recent Glotkin release, they decided to include the rules for using the model in the box with the model when you bought it. Great idea. Now with the Tyranid release, you have to buy a WD to get the rules? Huh? Why would they change this?

That's not wise. This is further compounded by the fact that the new WD is arguably a flop- out of three FLGS in a 20-mile radius, two no longer stock WD due to low customer demand and the other one organizes and shelves them in an extremely disorganized, low-priority way where they're often put out a week or longer after they've been officially released. It would save everyone a lot of effort to just be including the rules in the box when you buy the latest new model... at least for me.

Or maybe include the rules in the box AND in a White Dwarf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/04 20:45:33


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

The rules are most likely in the box with the kit, same as the recent End Times releases for WHFB.
   
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 Azreal13 wrote:
A stopped clock is still correct twice a day.

No, there's too much evidence to suggest they have lost their grip on what people loved about their product.

I would be willing to entertain the fact that the recent financial performance has perhaps convinced them to embark on some changes, and I would perhaps concede that the Tyrannocyte is a symptom of this, but let's not count our chickens.


Heh.. Exalted.
   
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As a Tyranid player who owns two drop pods I am glad to see the Spod return under a different name, though to be honest I won't be buying the rules, codex or dataslate.

I don't believe it is part of a wide-ranging, cunning plan though.

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Murenius wrote:. If we want them to fix what is wrong it will take some time and an overhaul of ALL codices.
This isn't happening.

Games Workshop made their choice a long time ago on how they were going to keep generating revenue. The rules only serve to push the products they think will drive the most revenue (hence flyers, then giant robots, then fortifications then they just opened the floodgates with Escalation and 7th).

There's never going to be some kind of Rules Deliverance (unless you mean the squeal like a pig kind of Deliverance). The game is just in a slow death spiral right now.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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The problem for me is that the drip-release idea is completely at odds with army book style rules releases.

They need to stick with one or the other. Either release codexes that are complete entities, or drop the codex completely (or replace it with a fluff book, or a completely optional book ala Warmahordes) and include the rules in the box with the model.

The current approach is just a mess. Particularly when combined with GW's continued refusal to tell players what's coming up.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/05 04:57:02


 
   
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Vancouver, BC

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
I have a question (if it can be known yet) of long-term Tyranid players....

Is the new Mycetic Spore any different from the rules for the one from previous editions?

Yes, it's more of an actual unit now rather than delivery option. It has significantly more firepower than before and can actually move and assault things independently, although it is paying more points for the changes. I'm overjoyed with the new spores though, they sound amazing.


The drop pod variant can't charge, so... The only way it's getting into combat is if something that can handle it decides it needs to go.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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If GW throws enough gak at the wall, something will stick. Their releases have been hit or miss - mostly miss of late; I've only seen excitement for these and previously the knight titans since - oh, Tau?

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I still can't believe how badly they pooched the stormtrooper army (Militarum Tempestus) release.


So much potential...putzed so badly...

:(

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 Tamwulf wrote:
GW better then we think? I doubt that. I think everything, and I mean EVERYTHING they do now comes down to "How much will this make GW?". It would not surprise me in the least that they have a marketing department with an algorithm that says how much it cost GW to make a model, promote it, ship it, etc. and the amount of profit margin GW is expected to make. If the new model/product meets that threshold, it goes into production.

To me, this is the only possible explanation for the way they have been pricing and releasing items over the last couple years. Remember that the Bugs had a "drop pod" (Myceantic spore?) in the previous Codex to the current one (along with Deepstrike rules). Forge World even made a model for it. GW decided to remove the DS rules from the bugs, AND the Myceantic Spores from the current codex. If they return in the new codex, great! But don't think for a moment that it was all part of some kind of "plan".


It was "Mycetic", you've added an a and an n. Forge World never made a model for it, they have the Meiotic Spore which is slightly taller than a Warrior and explodes to create more Spore Mines. The Mycetic Spore was removed from the main codex due an to ongoing lawsuit with Chapter House Studios, it's now been re-added with a new name and look.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/05 06:43:17


 
   
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 Azreal13 wrote:
A stopped clock is still correct twice a day.

No, there's too much evidence to suggest they have lost their grip on what people loved about their product.

I would be willing to entertain the fact that the recent financial performance has perhaps convinced them to embark on some changes, and I would perhaps concede that the Tyrannocyte is a symptom of this, but let's not count our chickens.


Sums it up nicely.
   
 
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