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 lessthanjeff wrote:
I miss the old system of them being immune to weapons up to strength 4 (or was it 6? i might be confusing them with the old dark eldar grotesque rules). I also liked when they had 2 wounds and were hella tough to kill instead of having the ap3 weapons.

I read a battle report involving two chaos armies under those rules (it was s4) containing Thousand Sons and the units ended up circling around the board ineffectively, since their boltguns couldn't hurt each other and they also had rules preventing them from charging. "All is dust" was the name of the s4 immunity rule.

I should try to find my old codex and see if my opponents would let me use those rules. I liked that setup because it meant they were immune to small arms fire so they had to be targeted with bigger weapons. This was a good combo with a vehicle heavy list because it helped contribute to the opponent not having enough strong guns to address all the threats. Granted, they could still be cut down in close combat as I recall, but it was a more interesting variation for them over standard MEQ.

The grotesque rule for dark eldar was very similar as I recall, but it had to be a weapon that caused instant death for them (and they were T3 back then as I recall).

yeah they were cool, the immunity to str4 or less shooting is much better than the current naff Tsons, the current ones are just too many points to be worth it :/

pelicaniforce wrote:
I have this as a fluff-to-rules contribution. There is nothing on the Thousand Sons model and nothing in the fluff that suggests there is anything special about their bolters, their bolt rounds, or anything else about their shooting. It still feels, since it happened in fourth edition, like ap3 was just thrown on there as a sloppy fix to a weak unit.

It is also really weird that Thousand Sons have an armor save. Normally, the armor protects flesh or machinery that is underneath it. Against thousand sons, the flesh that's being damaged is the armor, and they don't have a special second set of armor over the first set of armor to protect it. It seems wrong to me, it would make more sense if they didn't have an armor save.

Then, also, Thousand Sons have toughness four, like Space Marines. Space Marines have toughness four because they are flesh that has been enhanced with artificial organs. Thousand Sons are made of metal, they are essentially unarmored machinery. To me, unarmored machinery seems much more like artillery, like an eldar grav platform or a thunderfire than it sounds like flesh.

Like, you are never going to build a useful army out of units that have just bolters, even ap3 bolters. From the game designers' perspective it should make more sense to rely on a sorceror, who is also the driver of the unit in fluff.

Anyway, I try pretty hard, but ever since the end of daemonic essence stuff has been rough and rougher still.

You make a lot of interesting points.

With regard to the armour save, what if Thousand Sons just had a 3++ save - like the Legion of the Damned? Or, perhaps T5 and FNP (again, no armour save)? Or, something else along those lines.

In terms of weapons, is there anything you'd suggest to replace the AP3 bolters?

If sorcerous rounds are a must, just make them rending, if not just get rid of them and allow heavy weapons?

I don't know about old rules, but if it was weapons all the way up to S4, that's not a big journey, consisting I believe entirely of lasguns

What do you people have against lasguns?

pelicaniforce wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I miss the old system of them being immune to weapons up to strength 4 (or was it 6? i might be confusing them with the old dark eldar grotesque rules). I also liked when they had 2 wounds and were hella tough to kill instead of having the ap3 weapons.

I read a battle report involving two chaos armies under those rules (it was s4) containing Thousand Sons and the units ended up circling around the board ineffectively, since their boltguns couldn't hurt each other and they also had rules preventing them from charging. "All is dust" was the name of the s4 immunity rule.

Ah ok I see now was inclusive of S4 which makes a whole lot more sense LOL

If we're discussing how to improve them a little, I think I'd do it something like this:


Thousand Sons: 135 points
WS/BS4 S4 T4 I3 A1 W1 Ld10 Sv3+/4++

4 Thousand Sons Rubric Marines with Bolter (Sorcerous Bolts)
1 Sorcerer with Force Weapon

May include up to 5 additional Rubric Marines at 22 points per model.

Special Rules:
The Sorceror Commands- While the Sorcerer is alive, or a Tzneetch-marked Sorcerer Lord is attached to the squad, the squad has the Relentless and Fearless USRs. Should there be no Sorcerer or Sorcerer Lord present, the unit has the Slow and Purposeful USR

Sorcerous Bolts: The Sorcerer infuses his warrior's weapons with a fell magic, capable of matching any foe. When firing a bolter with Sorcerous Bolts, the squad may choose any of these weapon profiles if the Sorcerer is alive:

Souleater: R24" S4 AP6 Heavy 1, Force (The Sorcerer must cast have successfully Force in the previous Psychic Phase for this to take effect)

Bolts of Fate: R24" S4 AP4- Rapid Fire, Fateful: The enemy must re-roll successful Armour saves taken against this weapon

Bolts of Fear: R24" S4 AP5 Rapid fire, Fearful: If a single casualty is caused by these weapons, the enemy must pass a Leadership test or fall back. Their Ld Stat for this test is modified by -1 for every two wounds caused.

Bolts of Doom: R24" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire




So basically, this means they can work beyond just negating saves, makes them almost Chaos Sternguard in terms of the different 'ammo' types, and perhaps represents a little better the nature of the Sorcerer commanding his automatons. It would need playtesting, but should work in theory.

 vipoid wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
I have this as a fluff-to-rules contribution. There is nothing on the Thousand Sons model and nothing in the fluff that suggests there is anything special about their bolters, their bolt rounds, or anything else about their shooting. It still feels, since it happened in fourth edition, like ap3 was just thrown on there as a sloppy fix to a weak unit.

It is also really weird that Thousand Sons have an armor save. Normally, the armor protects flesh or machinery that is underneath it. Against thousand sons, the flesh that's being damaged is the armor, and they don't have a special second set of armor over the first set of armor to protect it. It seems wrong to me, it would make more sense if they didn't have an armor save.

Then, also, Thousand Sons have toughness four, like Space Marines. Space Marines have toughness four because they are flesh that has been enhanced with artificial organs. Thousand Sons are made of metal, they are essentially unarmored machinery. To me, unarmored machinery seems much more like artillery, like an eldar grav platform or a thunderfire than it sounds like flesh.

Like, you are never going to build a useful army out of units that have just bolters, even ap3 bolters. From the game designers' perspective it should make more sense to rely on a sorceror, who is also the driver of the unit in fluff.

Anyway, I try pretty hard, but ever since the end of daemonic essence stuff has been rough and rougher still.

You make a lot of interesting points.

With regard to the armour save, what if Thousand Sons just had a 3++ save - like the Legion of the Damned? Or, perhaps T5 and FNP (again, no armour save)? Or, something else along those lines.

I think that metal bodies with no armor are the same as artillery, and artillery are t7. Coincidentally, basic s4 hits against t7 sv - cause about as many unsaved wounds as basic s4 hits against meq t4 sv 3+. With a magical 4++ invulnerable save, then they are really tough, about as much as you would want a Thousand Son to be.

The only problem is power weapons on s3 models, which you would think would be the ideal tool against walking power armor if you are s3. I want to have no more than one unique special rule, so if keeping inferno bolts maybe lower toughness by one to t6.

In terms of weapons, is there anything you'd suggest to replace the AP3 bolters?

One of the other posters above wants to get rid of Sorcerors so that rubrics are easier to use and the price for an inferno bolt unit is lower. It's pretty awkward having those two competing aspects of the unit. Me, I think the whole point of Thousand Sons is that they are a sorcerous legion and that if you didn't have any of the codexes, there is nothing about the models or the fluff that would lead you to give them anything other than normal boltguns. OTOH, the sorceror should just be ML2.

The point of the unit is that it lets you take extra casters but doesn't let them join deathstar units to cast invisibility. You also get an enhanced warp charge pool without getting to cherrypick powers, because the first power always has to be from the Tzeentch discipline.

Wana just throw a quick anecdote. just had a game where 20 Tsonsofbitchs held my 10man THSS for 5 frickin turns before i whiped them with only 2 terms left :/ Bloody ell they are tough if they roll well.

 Desubot wrote:
Wana just throw a quick anecdote. just had a game where 20 Tsonsofbitchs held my 10man THSS for 5 frickin turns before i whiped them with only 2 terms left :/ Bloody ell they are tough if they roll well.

You still killed two squads equaling a total of almost 100 points over you, while noting the rolls weren't like what averages would show.
No they really aren't that tough.

Well it was roughly 50 more points but whatever.

Just wanted an excuse to use the word tsonsofbitchs

*Disclaimer: I run TSons as my main army, most often pure but occassionally with Tzeench daemon allies.

IMHO, Removing the focus fire mechanics probably hurt TSons more than almost any other unit in the game.

If memory serves, 8x TSons are only about 15% better than equivalent points in 10x CSM w/2x Plasma Guns at killing marines in the open and worse at killing everything else, including marines in any sort of cover.

And that requires removing the point-sink sorceror, otherwise they are actually worse than their counterparts even at killing marines in the open on a point for point comparison. There's a reason why very few SM players give their tac squads the vet upgrade or a melee weapon upgrade, and here you're forced (pun not intended) to pay 58 points for someone who, ideally, should be contributing

TSons are basically 2/3 of a tactical terminator for about 2/3 of the price of a tactical terminator. Unfortunately for both TSons and SM Termies, Tactical Termies suck, hard, for the points cost and doubly so against vehicles which make up a large part of the current meta.

I routinely feel about 100 points short at 1500 playing TSons and that bloody Aspiring Sorceror is the cause. 58 points for a 1 wound model is very much a no-no, especially when he can't shoot past 12", can't run, LOS's on a 4+, risks killing himself if he want's to cast at anything above a 50% success rate, can't cast force in the opponents turn anymore, can't cast force as well as another power and has to roll on the crappy Tzeentch table, of which there is only a single good power.

The utter inability to bring anything stronger than Str 4 to bear against anything without relying on rolling Doombolt or taking a force axe/staff also supremely limits their potential, not to mention the fact that they only have a single attack each and are unable to overwatch or run and you have an incredibly static unit, meaning you have to sink another 35 points into a rhino to get them anywhere, while also countering the 2 things they pay extra points for (AP3 and 4++).

150 points for ML1 and sucky powers is not a great deal as mentioned earlier, and that's the squad at bare minimum, to the point where they are not much better than a min squad cultists but at 5 times the price! Hell, you could ally in a Tzeentch Herald and an 11 man horror squad for ML3 for 6 points less and the herald can cast on Div while the Horrors have a much better selection of powers compared to the CSM Tzeentch table.

Having said that, you can force an interesting choice on an opponent, to huddle together in cover and get wiped out by a heldrake or to move out of cover and get butchered by the TSons.

They do give you the option of placing objective markers out in no-mans land with the knowledge that your guys can control who is going to be forcing the move onto the objective, doubly so since if you're taking TSons, it's going to be as troops with ObSec.

There is the saving grace of taking the ASorc with a force axe to threaten other HQ's and monsterous creatures and that his coterie of thralls are going to give the sorceror the chance to chose his challenge target and stick around regardless of what the outcome was.

They have their uses, but to be honest, the Sorc is overcosted by about 25 points (it'd be OK if they had another ML) and the Sons could easily drop down to 21 points each (from 23ppm) and still be struggling to break into the middle of the pack.