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P. 167 of the BRB, under Jink:

"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Since a blast template that scatters from targeted unit A onto unit B didnt originally target unit B, they cant declare jink, correct?

Another question is, if a SM CM on bike joins a unit of 10 tactical marines, does this mean they all get jink?

Also, where can I find the rule that gives you +1 to your cover save if your jinking unit moved flat out or turbo-boosted?

You are correct that they can not jink as they were not targettted for a shooting attack

If you finish reading the jink rule, it says only models with the jink rule get the 4+ cover save and have to snapfire when the unit jinks so no they don't all get jink

That rule doesn't exist

If the blast scatters on a unit it didn't pick as target, they cannot elect jink, that's the bad part.

Good part is, if the unit has previously jinked on that turn, because it was targetted and shot at, and THEN a blast scatters on it, they are already jinking, so they can roll the cover save.


The turbo-boost thing was in another edition, 7th doesn't have it.
But, you still add Skilled Rider, Stealth and Shrouded to the 4+, so you can get up to 2+ with it.

RAW there is absolutely no question, the word "target" isn't used so you don't get the option to Jink.

RAI, it's very likely that GtG and Jink should be allowed on deviating blasts, Death Rays and other things that just don't use the word "target" yet do indeed target the unit, make it feel afraid and want to dodge.

But since most players vote with their feelings (like I hate Wave Serpents for example), that RAI will never be played anywhere ever so just stick to the RAW.

? GtG can be used, as it is declared when a wound is allocated.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
? GtG can be used, as it is declared when a wound is allocated.

Oh good, so it's better written than Jink. Nice. For an ability that's exactly the same thing but for infantry, that's ... great news I guess.

Unfortunately you're not correct.

If warriors come under fire, they may decide to keep their heads down to try and stay alive a little longer while they wait for extraction or reinforcements. After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against any of your non-vehicle units, but before any saves are made or Wounds allocated, you can declare that the unit is Going to Ground. To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit as a reminder.

After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound.

Applies to blasts, that's a lot better than Jink.

Does not apply to Death Ray, still just as bad as Jink.

? I thought deathray rolled to wound still. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

rolled To Hit and To Wound
!=
rolled to Wound

Then youre arguing that you cannot GtG against Blasts, as they explicitly do NOT roll to hit

Youre reading it as a complete set of instructions, as opposed to a time period. It is delineating when the decision must be made, not the preconditions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then youre arguing that you cannot GtG against Blasts, as they explicitly do NOT roll to hit

Youre reading it as a complete set of instructions, as opposed to a time period. It is delineating when the decision must be made, not the preconditions.

Interesting point of view.

If rolling scatter does not count as a roll To Hit, then yes, you cannot GtG against them.

Rules really have only one meaning as written, and that meaning is extracted by letting the words speak, not deciding which are important and which are not.
There is no argument to be had, merely a teamwork to dispel the misunderstandings.

If warriors come under fire, they may decide to keep their heads down to try and stay alive a little longer while they wait for extraction or reinforcements. After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against any of your non-vehicle units, but before any saves are made or Wounds allocated, you can declare that the unit is Going to Ground. To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit as a reminder.

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

No "To Hit" roll, so no "After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound", so no GtG against deviating blasts or Death Ray, which brings us to the exact same situation as Jink, i.e. a situation that doesn't make much sense.

And no GtG against hitting blasts, which is even worse than Jink.

Or since the To Hit is replaced with its own unique rule in the case of Blasts, the condition is met.

 grendel083 wrote:
Or since the To Hit is replaced with its own unique rule in the case of Blasts, the condition is met.

Which does happen explicitly where in the BRB, do you have a quote or is that an interpretation ?

If the shot allows no saves, you cannot GtG either, as you have no "but before..."

The rule is setting out a time period, not a set of preconditions that must be met.

morgoth wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Or since the To Hit is replaced with its own unique rule in the case of Blasts, the condition is met.

Which does happen explicitly where in the BRB, do you have a quote or is that an interpretation ?

Little bit of both.
As you quoted before, Blasts do not roll to hit. The word straight after (that you didn't include in your quote) is important: "Instead"
So instead of rolling To Hit, you scatter instead (or place a template, or draw a line, or.....).

They must still go through the To Hit stage of the shooting sequence (is it step 4 or 5?) but replace the mechanic with their own equivalent.

Now admittedly the rule could have said "...roll To Hit (or appropriate alternative) and roll To Wound (or appropriate alternative)..." but if they started doing that they'd have to do so for every rule. Do you know how many exceptions there are to each rule? Hundreds! I can't think of a single rule that doesn't have an exception (can't re-roll a re-roll, unless it says roll again ). The book would be 3 times as log if they started including these things.

To Hit is a general term, we all know it's replaced with Scatter in the case of Blasts, so why should it replace To Hit in some cases, but not all?

 grendel083 wrote:

As you quoted before, Blasts do not roll to hit. The word straight after (that you didn't include in your quote) is important: "Instead"

It's important to remember that we operate in a context where Jink saves are denied because the specific word "target" is not used.

In such a context, doing something instead of a To Hit roll does not equate to doing a different To Hit roll, which is the interpretation you have offered (a reasonable one at that, but an interpretation nevertheless).

If the rules had read "Blast weapons roll To Hit differently than normal weapons, their To Hit roll is accomplished by rolling two D6 and a scatter dice,...", then there would be no question that the scatter roll on a blast weapon would be in fact a To Hit roll for all rules purposes.

As it is, there is no "To Hit" roll, and instead we do something else.

Instead: as a substitute or replacement

So we remove the To Hit roll, put a scatter roll in its place and that's it.

It's still not a "To Hit" roll, it's just a replacement/substitute for a To Hit roll, and would therefore not validate the "After the To Hit roll" condition, how could it ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If the shot allows no saves, you cannot GtG either, as you have no "but before..."

The rule is setting out a time period, not a set of preconditions that must be met.

Exactly, if the shot allows no saves, you cannot GtG either, but then why would you even care.

The rule is a bunch of words, not "setting out a time period".

You see it as setting out a time period, it can be used as such, but it also gives a canvas within which that rule fits.

If you remove the canvas, then that rule does not apply now does it ?

You're perfectly right that the rule can be interpreted as such, and used as such, but you are deciding to disregard the limitations that it imposes.

Any decision means you are interpreting and thus betraying the meaning of the words.


If you can forget the To Hit roll, you could also forget the To Wound roll, and just GtG any time before you allocate wounds . why not ?

Or you could just forget all the conditions and just GtG because whatever who cares.

No, it can only be seen as a time period, as it uses "after...." and "before...." . It is delineating a period in which the rule can be evoked.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it can only be seen as a time period, as it uses "after...." and "before...." . It is delineating a period in which the rule can be evoked.

And that time period cannot be matched if there is no "To Hit" roll now can it ?

Yes it can be, as it is still after the to wound and before saves are made / wounds allocated.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes it can be, as it is still after the to wound and before saves are made / wounds allocated.

You mean that you arbitrarily decided that one of the 4 points could be ignored.
Then what exactly stops another nosferatu1002 from ignoring another of the 4 points, like say the "wounds allocated" points, and then only GtG after that.
Or another nosferatu1003 from ignoring two points or more, and GtG anytime before wounds are allocated, or after saves are rolled.

Can you still identify the exact time period? Yes.

That isnt arbitrary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Can you still identify the exact time period?

Of course not.

To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

or GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

or GtG.

morgoth wrote:
To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

Really? On a timeline it is: the "x" is the same Time

2010 2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

is the same as

2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

same as

2014 "X" 2016

because, actually, the "X" is " After the year 2012 and 2014, but before 2016 or 2018" (using the GtG rules)
If you think about it, the "X" is probably 2015...

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Can you still identify the exact time period?

Of course not.

To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

or GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

or GtG.

To hit / to wound / GTG / allocate wounds / saves

IS the same time as

to wound / GTG / allocate wounds

It happens at the exact same period in time.

One of the thing that has been bothering me of late:
An increase number of people demanding that default Rules are followed, even in situations where more Advanced Rule Interactions are in play.....

Each Step in the sequence is a Rule in and of itself, just one that has a specific Timeline that forces it to occur immediately after the step prior but before the step after. These individual Rules are able to be over-written by the concept of Advanced Vs Basic, each step within the sequence can be modified by additional instructions, such as Re-rolling failed To Hit results, or over-written completely by providing us with completely alternative instructions. Once we have completed these alternative 'To Hit' instructions we have successfully 'rolled To Hit,' even if no dice Roll was involved in the process or the dice we did use had an arrow instead of a number on it....

 BlackTalos wrote:

morgoth wrote:
To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

Really? On a timeline it is: the "x" is the same Time

2010 2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

is the same as

2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

same as

2014 "X" 2016

because, actually, the "X" is " After the year 2012 and 2014, but before 2016 or 2018" (using the GtG rules)
If you think about it, the "X" is probably 2015...

Even though you intentionally made no mention of the two examples your rebuttal could not touch, how about this:

There is not a single timeline.
You roll to Wound several dozen times in any game, making your example of a single timeline an inaccurate representation of the situation.


The rule tells us to GtG After having To Hit in 2012, To Wound in 2014 and before Allocating Wounds in 2016 and saving wounds in 2018.

It does not tell us to GtG after having To Wound in 2020, and before Allocating Wounds in 2021 and saving wounds in 2023.


In *some* situations, it happens that the point in time defined by To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save is the same as the one defined by To Wound / x / Allocate/ Save, and in that case the GtG rules apply.

In other situations, there is no match for the To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save and the GtG rule does not apply, no matter what other sequences it might match.

morgoth wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

morgoth wrote:
To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

Really? On a timeline it is: the "x" is the same Time

2010 2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

is the same as

2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

same as

2014 "X" 2016

because, actually, the "X" is " After the year 2012 and 2014, but before 2016 or 2018" (using the GtG rules)
If you think about it, the "X" is probably 2015...

Even though you intentionally made no mention of the two examples your rebuttal could not touch, how about this:

There is not a single timeline.
You roll to Wound several dozen times in any game, making your example of a single timeline an inaccurate representation of the situation.


The rule tells us to GtG After having To Hit in 2012, To Wound in 2014 and before Allocating Wounds in 2016 and saving wounds in 2018.

It does not tell us to GtG after having To Wound in 2020, and before Allocating Wounds in 2021 and saving wounds in 2023.


In *some* situations, it happens that the point in time defined by To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save is the same as the one defined by To Wound / x / Allocate/ Save, and in that case the GtG rules apply.

In other situations, there is no match for the To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save and the GtG rule does not apply, no matter what other sequences it might match.

You seem to be really confusing things.

Do you understand how the Shooting Sequence works?

It has 7 steps, from 1 to 7. That is a timeline. It does not matter how many times that timeline is repeated per Turn, because the enemy Unit can GtG during any of those "iterations".

When can you GtG? To Wound / GtG / Allocate.
By the way, that is at the same time as To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate / Save
or To Wound / GtG / Allocate / Save
or To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate

If you need further clarification, GtG happens right in between Step 5 and Step 6. You could see GtG as a Step 5.5 Rule if that makes it any easier.

Now that we have defined GtG, please explain to me why a Death Ray, or Scattering blast does not have a Step 4 or a step 5?

morgoth wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

morgoth wrote:
To Hit / To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

is not the same as

To Wound / GtG / Allocate Wounds / Saves

Really? On a timeline it is: the "x" is the same Time

2010 2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

is the same as

2012 2014 "X" 2016 2018

same as

2014 "X" 2016

because, actually, the "X" is " After the year 2012 and 2014, but before 2016 or 2018" (using the GtG rules)
If you think about it, the "X" is probably 2015...

Even though you intentionally made no mention of the two examples your rebuttal could not touch, how about this:

There is not a single timeline.
You roll to Wound several dozen times in any game, making your example of a single timeline an inaccurate representation of the situation.


The rule tells us to GtG After having To Hit in 2012, To Wound in 2014 and before Allocating Wounds in 2016 and saving wounds in 2018.

It does not tell us to GtG after having To Wound in 2020, and before Allocating Wounds in 2021 and saving wounds in 2023.


In *some* situations, it happens that the point in time defined by To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save is the same as the one defined by To Wound / x / Allocate/ Save, and in that case the GtG rules apply.

In other situations, there is no match for the To Hit / To Wound / x / Allocate / Save and the GtG rule does not apply, no matter what other sequences it might match.

Misrepresenting the shooting phas,e which is delineated into individual steps giving rise to a perfectly understood timeline, isnt helpful

After to wound and before saves / allocating wounds is exactly delineated, and unambiguous.

Thanks BlackTalos for explaining your point of view.

It makes sense and is clearly one valid interpretation even though it's not the most direct one.

If warriors come under fire, they may decide to keep their heads down to try and stay alive a little longer while they wait for extraction or reinforcements. After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against any of your non-vehicle units, but before any saves are made or Wounds allocated, you can declare that the unit is Going to Ground. To represent this, place a suitable marker next to the unit as a reminder.

So, how do you deal with the following statement:

If there is no "To Hit" roll, the rule does not apply because the rule explicitly states "After the enemy has rolled To Hit".

No, the rule does not state that. the rest of the context is required, you cannot just chop parts out of a rule and have it make sense.

The rule, as a whole, is delineating a time period, not a set of pre-requisites.

As Nos points out, the actual rule is this:

"After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound"

Can you explain to me what a "roll To Hit and To Wound" is? Is it 2 Dice, where one is a To Hit and one is a To Wound? Is it a D20 dice, where results of 1-10 is To Hit and results of 11-20 is To Wound?

It cannot be a "roll", like a rule which says "roll a D6 and suffer casualties" would be. It is a certain defined time: "After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound". Regardless of how many Dice in each, or if there ever were any in the To Hit part (Blasts - even they roll 3 Dice To Hit, so does a Death Ray: It rolls Dice for distance))