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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 dogma wrote:

If you want to advance trade education, that is the message that should be sent. As it stands you get people like Mike Rowe patting people who do dirty jobs on the head, which doesn't motivate anyone to pursue any trade as it often reinforces the notion that trade work sucks.

Yes, and if you go back and read some of the input I've had on this thread, you'll see that I do/did exactly that. I'm part of a high school outreach in Loudoun County that puts on a "Trade Night" for high school kids and their parents to inform them on what the trades are really about and what you can accomplish by learning one. I've also visited other schools in other counties to get the message out that the modern tradesmen isn't the old stereotype people think it is. On top of being a general foreman for the largest contractor in the DC area, I was also a teacher at our apprentice school where I taught first year apprentices the basics of our trade. Unfortunately, I had to leave after five years of teaching because I took a job that conflicted with teaching.

Just wanted to say... kudos for doing that "Trade Night" program for the local schools.

That's awesome and I wish it's more common-place where I live.

 streamdragon wrote:
What do you even do with a liberal arts degree?

I'm assuming you mean a degree in a liberal arts subject, and not just specific "liberal arts" majors, but to answer your question, you can do whatever you want to do, for the most part. You just have to be able to market yourself correctly and network decently. If you limit yourself to wanting a job that specifically requires a degree in your specific field, your chances dwindle, but if you are willing to cast a wide net (and if you are the kind of person who wants to do a liberal arts degree, you should be able to do this), you can be successful in finding a job that can both pay decently and be fulfilling.

There are also some liberal arts degrees that can give you the skills to get some well-paying, very interesting jobs. I'm not saying it's for everybody, because it definitely isn't. And I'm not knocking STEM fields at all here, but the idea that the only good jobs go to people with STEM degrees is simply false.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

When you say "plumber," people think of either a scruffy looking fat guy face-down in a toilet with his butt crack hanging out of his jeans or Mario.

I've never thought that, I always thought "guy who fixes pipes". But then I grew up in an affluent area largely populated by contractors and union tradesmen, who often told their kids to find different work.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Hell, I've seen more than one person in the OT expressing the sentiment of "join a trade because you aren't smart enough for college."

I've heard that sentiment, but it isn't as pervasive as many like to believe.

This goes back to my initial comment about trades and physicality. Everyone knows trades are harder on the body than desk jobs, and the skills acquired are less transferable; no amount of branding can get around those two facts. And, as a result, trades are pursued at a lower rate.

 dogma wrote:

I've never thought that, I always thought "guy who fixes pipes". But then I grew up in an affluent area largely populated by contractors and union tradesmen, who often told their kids to find different work.

Because you have never thought (because of course you haven't) that doesn't mean it isn't a wide spread belief. Also, if you think of a plumber as a "guy who fixes pipes," you still don't understand how diverse the plumbing field is.

I just complimented plumbers... I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

I've heard that sentiment, but it isn't as pervasive as many like to believe.

No, it's very pervasive. Allow me to remind you, again, that I work with schools to get information to parents and kids about trades. I have first hand knowledge of this, based on my direct interaction with people.

This goes back to my initial comment about trades and physicality. Everyone knows trades are harder on the body than desk jobs

You still are clinging to to absolute truth that trades = physicality, despite the fact that I have informed you otherwise. I am a tradesman, I come from a large family of tradesman, and I know lots of tradesmen in lots of different trades and I can tell you that "trade skills are harder on your body than desk jobs" as a blanket statement is not an accurate statement, so just stop making it. Also, desk jobs carry their own health risks that many people ignore.

the skills acquired are less transferable; no amount of branding can get around those two facts.

That statement proves you know next to nothing about trade skills or apprenticeships/trade schools, so just stop acting like you do.

Remember, it's okay not to know everything.

And, as a result, trades are pursued at a lower rate.

No, it's because for last generation or so the focus has been to go to college, with kids being told it is how you will succeed after high school. Myself and others have said this numerous times already, ignoring it doesn't make it any less true.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Because you have never thought (because of course you haven't) that doesn't mean it isn't a wide spread belief.

I never said it wasn't. You're reading that sentiment into my comments.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
No, it's very pervasive. Allow me to remind you, again, that I work with schools to get information to parents and kids about trades. I have first hand knowledge of this, based on my direct interaction with people.

I went to high school in the US, and interacted with trade advocates about as regularly as I interacted with military and college recruiters. I also know, and worked with many tradesmen. I have first hand knowledge too, and from my experience the attitude you describe isn't universal. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that trade advocates themselves contribute to the problem by making a poor case for their trade, and becoming frustrated when people respond indifferently.

I'm not saying this is true of you, but it is true of the trade advocates I interacted with in high school. At least barring the automotive technology guys, but that's an easy sell.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

I am a tradesman, I come from a large family of tradesman, and I know lots of tradesmen in lots of different trades and I can tell you that "trade skills are harder on your body than desk jobs" as a blanket statement is not an accurate statement, so just stop making it.

Yes it is. In fact its only accurate as a blanket statement, as the terms "trade skills" and "desk jobs" are both blanket terms, and you're going to have very difficult time arguing that the latter is more physically demanding than the former.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Also, desk jobs carry their own health risks that many people ignore.

I don't think many people ignore the health risks of a sedentary lifestyle, they're quite well documented and primarily associated with reduced longevity. This makes them distinct from an inability to work.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

No, it's because for last generation or so the focus has been to go to college, with kids being told it is how you will succeed after high school. Myself and others have said this numerous times already, ignoring it doesn't make it any less true.

I'm not disputing that fact, I'm giving reasons as to why that has been the case.

I'm not going to debate this with you any more and drag this thread off-topic any more than it already is, so I'll leave you with this:

At the end of the day, you're a 28 year old who thinks they have the whole world figured out. It would behoove you to sometimes just admit that it isn't always the case and this thread makes that perfectly clear. You made some pretty broad and inaccurate statements and you were called out on them, and instead of just admitting you might not be as well-versed on this particular subject as you are trying to sound, you double down and defend what you said with even more inaccurate statements. You either really do think that everything you've claimed so far is the absolute truth or you just want to argue (probably a little bit of both, really). Whichever it is, just knock it off and come back down to Earth.

How about you counter dogma's points instead of just repeating variations of "you're wrong!"?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How about you counter dogma's points instead of just repeating variations of "you're wrong!"?

Obvisously you've never argued with Dogma.

I did counter every single point he tried to make, but it makes no difference. If you would like to know why it is an exercise in futility, go back a little and read where he quoted a statement I made and replied with the same thing I wrote trying to make the case that I claimed the opposite.

 Hordini wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
What do you even do with a liberal arts degree?

I'm assuming you mean a degree in a liberal arts subject, and not just specific "liberal arts" majors, but to answer your question, you can do whatever you want to do, for the most part. You just have to be able to market yourself correctly and network decently. If you limit yourself to wanting a job that specifically requires a degree in your specific field, your chances dwindle, but if you are willing to cast a wide net (and if you are the kind of person who wants to do a liberal arts degree, you should be able to do this), you can be successful in finding a job that can both pay decently and be fulfilling.

There are also some liberal arts degrees that can give you the skills to get some well-paying, very interesting jobs. I'm not saying it's for everybody, because it definitely isn't. And I'm not knocking STEM fields at all here, but the idea that the only good jobs go to people with STEM degrees is simply false.

I should be clear on my stance: I did not graduate college. When I previously posted that I left school, I meant that literally. My situation was a bit odd though: GMU told me I graduated, let me walk, made it through exit counseling. When the package arrived with what should have been my diploma, it was instead a "whoops, we screwed up and you need to take 3 more credit hours". I had already moved states, so I said frell it. My degree should have been in computer science; my current job is not in computer science because frell that. I learned as I made it through college that I did not enjoy it at all.

When I said "what do you do with a liberal arts degree", I did meant a degree in "liberal arts". I honestly have no idea of the direct application. I was mostly just surprised at the number of liberal arts schools, but I admit that I didn't think about the fact that these schools would also give normal BS/BA degrees in other majors. I've always heard "liberal arts school" and thought "liberal arts degree".

Liberal arts covers a whole lot of things, including your natural sciences (biology, science, physics, astronomy), social sciences, mathematics, and political sciences.

Liberal arts doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.