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I wonder how much this had to do with the study showing that San Francisco leads the pack in income difference. It seems that in Dan Fran you are either fairly wealthy or poor, with little in between, at least compared to most place. A few other cities are close, but being number one is its own special thing.

 d-usa wrote:

DutchWinsAll wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
With all that being said, I'd be willing to enter into some sort of indentured servitude if someone wanted to pay off my student loans

Any takers?

How old are you that you still have student loans? Unless you went to medical school that gak should be paid off within 5 years. It does explain your some of your negative views on college though.

Average time to pay of student loans is 10 years, so if you are a 100% traditional student you will probably graudate college when you are 23 and pay off your student loans when you are 33.

Unless you went to graduate school.

Or you went back to school later.

Or you didn't go to school right after high school and didn't get your loans until you were 33 to start with.

There are so many variables in student loans, how many breaks in repayment you had or how old you were when you first went to school or went back to school, that having loans really tells me nothing about how old someone is.

Or you couldn't get a deent job and are working (again) as a waiter. Beware the Higher Education Industrial Complex!

 Frazzled wrote:

Or you couldn't get a deent job and are working (again) as a waiter. Beware the Higher Education Industrial Complex!

Student loan don't care what you work as, or don't work as! When it's due, it's due!

You don't own student loan debt, in Capitalist America Student Loan Debt owns you!

 dogma wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

In addition to my doctoral research, I (1) teach 2 undergraduate classes. Not TA. TEACH. I design the syllabus, select the text book, lecture, assign homework, grade, and give exams.

That's what nearly all TAs do. The only things I didn't do as a TA were freely design the syllabus, and freely select the textbooks underpinning the syllabus. And I'm going to guess you didn't do those things either ; given that textbook selection is necessarily limited by that which is available to the institution, the department, and the professor.

And you would be wrong. I selected text books that I'd used at another institution for similar courses because they are better than the ones that the school was using, and the school ordered those text books for my classes. Syllabus is 100% my design, as is the text book selection.

There is no "professor" for this course - it's just me.

San Fran also appears to be where (evil?) Tony Stark has set up shop in the new Superior Iron Man.



It seems like San Francisco is having some image issues.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or you couldn't get a deent job and are working (again) as a waiter. Beware the Higher Education Industrial Complex!

Student loan don't care what you work as, or don't work as! When it's due, it's due!

You don't own student loan debt, in Capitalist America Student Loan Debt owns you!

In America you gotta earn!

Seriously now, I don't know how kids do it these days. In ancient times I managed to work my way through college. I couldn't afford to get into the schools I was qualified for, but still made it through.

Now, the tuition, books etc. are ten times what it was then. I would not have been able to go.

 Frazzled wrote:

Seriously now, I don't know how kids do it these days. In ancient times I managed to work my way through college. I couldn't afford to get into the schools I was qualified for, but still made it through.

Now, the tuition, books etc. are ten times what it was then. I would not have been able to go.

Or even adults that need to go back to school for jobs.

My #1 recommendation for going to an online university is Western Governors University. Great online school, awesome cost even if you wouldn't be comparing them to overpriced online diploma mill, and great staff. You will keep yourself from being buried in student loans or having to sell kidneys if you take a look at them.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Anecdotally, the town I grew up in, if I rode the city bus to the library it took me 1 1/2-2 hours to get there one way. If I rode my bike it took me 30 minutes, tops. and by car it was 15-30 minutes depending on traffic (there were many bike accessible "short cuts" that a car couldn't use).

To piggy back on this, where I live now, there is a subdivision much like a suburb.

To get to the nearest library, it's 30 minutes by car in good traffic. There are no other options. None. You can't walk or bike it, unless you feel like riding illegally on a highway. There is no public transportation. No bus, no train, nothing. This is a reality for lots of people in rural areas, which comprise a startingly large number of poorer people in the US.

With how much everyday life and business depends on the internet, it would not be too off to call it a 'necessity'. Sure, you don't need it to live like food or water. But if you don't have it, you are at a SERIOUS disadvantage in modern society. From grade school to college to adult work life, you are already struggling.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or you couldn't get a deent job and are working (again) as a waiter. Beware the Higher Education Industrial Complex!

Student loan don't care what you work as, or don't work as! When it's due, it's due!

You don't own student loan debt, in Capitalist America Student Loan Debt owns you!

In America you gotta earn!

Seriously now, I don't know how kids do it these days. In ancient times I managed to work my way through college. I couldn't afford to get into the schools I was qualified for, but still made it through.

Now, the tuition, books etc. are ten times what it was then. I would not have been able to go.

Problem is now is that jobs before that didn't need a degree almost require it as well, many jobs that didn't require certs now need it or else your left in the dust or you can't even look to the jobs without some sort of paid for training beforehand.

 Frazzled wrote:
Seriously now, I don't know how kids do it these days. In ancient times I managed to work my way through college. I couldn't afford to get into the schools I was qualified for, but still made it through.

Now, the tuition, books etc. are ten times what it was then. I would not have been able to go.

You have no idea how often I've seen the first sentiment posted without the latter sentiment added on, so kudos to you for not promulgating that outdated bs.

 Frazzled wrote:

In America you gotta earn!

Seriously now, I don't know how kids do it these days. In ancient times I managed to work my way through college. I couldn't afford to get into the schools I was qualified for, but still made it through.

Now, the tuition, books etc. are ten times what it was then. I would not have been able to go.

Holy... because of this post, I looked up tuition rates at George Mason, where I went for undergrad. Tuition has gone from $180 $99 per credit hour to $424 per credit hour. I graduated about 10 years ago.

That's not including the roughly $400-500 I spent on books every single frelling semseter, which I'm sure are still at least that expensive.

Edit: double checked the tuition cost from the year I went in. Almost half what I though it was!

Depends on how many classes you take, and how many books they need. You can expect to spend a minimum of $25 a credit hour (probably closer to $50) on books.

I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

 Ahtman wrote:
Sallie Mae and several other sites that took ten seconds to google say the average student loan takes ten years to pay off, not five.

That's actually misleading too...

Most of those loans are paid off by private loans, whom offered better rates/considation opportunity. Payoff is closer to avg of 20 yrs.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Costs need to go down. There's no resaon for the year over year constant above inflation tuition increases.

 whembly wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Sallie Mae and several other sites that took ten seconds to google say the average student loan takes ten years to pay off, not five.

That's actually misleading too...

Most of those loans are paid off by private loans, whom offered better rates/considation opportunity. Payoff is closer to avg of 20 yrs.

Yup. My loan rate was so low that refinancing wasn't worth it. I'm about halfway paid off and I've been paying for 10ish years. 20 should see me student loan free.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Costs need to go down. There's no resaon for the year over year constant above inflation tuition increases.

But Frazz... it's all free money from the gubmint!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Sallie Mae and several other sites that took ten seconds to google say the average student loan takes ten years to pay off, not five.

That's actually misleading too...

Most of those loans are paid off by private loans, whom offered better rates/considation opportunity. Payoff is closer to avg of 20 yrs.

Yup. My loan rate was so low that refinancing wasn't worth it. I'm about halfway paid off and I've been paying for 10ish years. 20 should see me student loan free.

Yeah... the kicker is that even though they're private loans... they're still "school loans" and thus, cannot be discharged via normal bankruptcy. Hence why private banks love that industry.

Thats what Gruber said!

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats what Gruber said!

I laughed out loud in my office... you almost owe me a new keyboard frazz!

 whembly wrote:
Yeah... the kicker is that even though they're private loans... they're still "school loans" and thus, cannot be discharged via normal bankruptcy. Hence why private banks love that industry.

Mine are all FAFSA loans, though I'm pretty sure I got sold to some private firm recently. That kind of torqued me off. The ridiculous changes to student loans not being discharged is just that: ridiculous. All it is is banks seeing an upcoming bubble and making sure that they can't lose a single cent when the bubble bursts. Frell them.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Our universities/government used to give grants for students and had no fees (though they were a lot harder to get into and you still had to pay for living costs, etc). Then they slowly brought in tuition fees (when I went they were £1,200 per year). Over the course of only a few years they were ramped up to a "maximum" of £9,000 a year "under exceptional circumstances". Of course, almost all universities now charge £9,000 a year for any course.

The problem came because unlike the USA, we haven't had time to adjust to this - no one has a "baby's university saving scheme", because these raises were done over only a couple of years. The stupid thing is that the government still provides the loan for the tuition fee, so there are no up front saving to the government in the cost of university education, and as most people never repay the student loan over the course of repayments, there is no extra money reclaimed at the end of the day either.

One of the two parties currently running the country campaigned on the promise of not increasing tuition fees - and one of their biggest voting blocks historically has been students. Needless to say that when they got in power and just bent over when it came to increasing student fees they lost almost their entire support base and have not recovered since, nor do they look like they will ever be in power again in my lifetime

 d-usa wrote:

My #1 recommendation for going to an online university is Western Governors University. Great online school, awesome cost even if you wouldn't be comparing them to overpriced online diploma mill, and great staff. You will keep yourself from being buried in student loans or having to sell kidneys if you take a look at them.

When I was doing online schooling while in the army, I went to American Military University (it's a part of American Public University or the "american public university system" as there's a few more schools in this small network as well). While I didn't personally pay a dime, I was very conscious of the costs due to the way Army TA worked.

For a full course, the classes were costed to exactly the army's "limit" of 750 per total course. The nice thing with AMU, and I found out it's the school thing, not just an "army TA" thing, that when you sign up for their classes, so long as you're "currently" paid up, they send you the books you need for the class. Purchasing the book is actually included in the cost of the course

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Costs need to go down. There's no resaon for the year over year constant above inflation tuition increases.

I agree, but these colleges love money. And we don't want the evil government to start messing with the free market do we .

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Costs need to go down. There's no resaon for the year over year constant above inflation tuition increases.

I agree, but these colleges love money. And we don't want the evil government to start messing with the free market do we .

The reason tuition keeps going up is because the govt is already messing up the market for higher education.

SUNY wants to charge X for tuition but there are very few applicants that can afford to pay it. The federal govt steps in and loans applicants however much money they need. SUNY gets paid, students get debt. SUNY spends that money on stuff so they need to increase costs again so now they charge Y for tuition. Even fewer students can afford to pay that amount without help so the federal govt loans the applicants however much they need to attend. SUNY gets paid again, students get even more debt.

If the federal govt was subsidizing the rising cost of tuition schools would have to find a way to lower costs (like spending their endowments to defray the cost of attendence) or shut down due to lack of students. Schools would have to find a way to educate students without saddling them with crippling debt, everybody wins.

If the problem is too much student loan debt it can't be solved by having the govt loan more money and thereby increase the amount of student loan debt.

One way to mitigate this is to force these universities to put a little "skin" in the game, with respect to their student getting a job.

Ie, if a student graduate and can't get a job within the industry, then the university ought to refund a portion back to the student.

Prestor Jon wrote:
The reason tuition keeps going up is because the govt is already messing up the market for higher education.

FAFSA has been around since 1965, and yet it wasn't until 1985 that tuition started outpacing inflation. It didn't REALLY take off until 2000-ish (around the .dot com boom I guess?). The real answer is that colleges are raising tuition rates because they can. Especially with the lack of well paying jobs, anything outside a trade can basically ask for a diploma and find someone with one. The push to send kids to college for a degree, any degree, is doing serious damage.

 streamdragon wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
The reason tuition keeps going up is because the govt is already messing up the market for higher education.

FAFSA has been around since 1965, and yet it wasn't until 1985 that tuition started outpacing inflation. It didn't REALLY take off until 2000-ish (around the .dot com boom I guess?). The real answer is that colleges are raising tuition rates because they can. Especially with the lack of well paying jobs, anything outside a trade can basically ask for a diploma and find someone with one. The push to send kids to college for a degree, any degree, is doing serious damage.

Absolutely!

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm in college right now, SUNYIT for CS specificaly, and I'm paying $9508.00 this semester. Keep in mind that this is a state-funded school. It's about as cheaply as it gets for quality education. I'm going to to major debt. We really need either public higher education, or some serious expanding of government backed student loans. Something, anything. I would vote for a president just on that at this point.

Costs need to go down. There's no resaon for the year over year constant above inflation tuition increases.

I agree, but these colleges love money. And we don't want the evil government to start messing with the free market do we .

The reason tuition keeps going up is because the govt is already messing up the market for higher education.

SUNY wants to charge X for tuition but there are very few applicants that can afford to pay it. The federal govt steps in and loans applicants however much money they need. SUNY gets paid, students get debt. SUNY spends that money on stuff so they need to increase costs again so now they charge Y for tuition. Even fewer students can afford to pay that amount without help so the federal govt loans the applicants however much they need to attend. SUNY gets paid again, students get even more debt.

If the federal govt was subsidizing the rising cost of tuition schools would have to find a way to lower costs (like spending their endowments to defray the cost of attendence) or shut down due to lack of students. Schools would have to find a way to educate students without saddling them with crippling debt, everybody wins.

If the problem is too much student loan debt it can't be solved by having the govt loan more money and thereby increase the amount of student loan debt.

I'm talking about super-low to zero interest loans here, not the bs we have currently. If the government tried to make a gift, the colleges, or at least the private ones, would just raise prices to make more money.

Also, don't try to blame the government for this. It is entirely the private colleges fault here. I could be paying more thn double for the same education, sometimes worse education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
The reason tuition keeps going up is because the govt is already messing up the market for higher education.

FAFSA has been around since 1965, and yet it wasn't until 1985 that tuition started outpacing inflation. It didn't REALLY take off until 2000-ish (around the .dot com boom I guess?). The real answer is that colleges are raising tuition rates because they can. Especially with the lack of well paying jobs, anything outside a trade can basically ask for a diploma and find someone with one. The push to send kids to college for a degree, any degree, is doing serious damage.

Absolutely!

I agree. We have this neat little system around where I live where kids who know they aren't going to college can learn a craft, and get a job strait out of highschool. I thin it's a great system. Some things (CS, MD, ect.) need a college education. You don't need one to work in a factory.

Why can't I blame both the colleges AND the government?

How did the government create this problem then?