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Does anyone ever ask what exactly happened to Ferrus Manus? Or Sanguinius? Where the Lion went? Where's Guilliman? Why is the Emperor in a chair?

There are statues of them all over Terra. (least in the art books) Would this line of questioning lead you to the Servitor program?

In 40K, the Horus Heresy is a mostly forgotten calamity that happened in the long long ago.

So, nothing. The average citizen knows nothing about it.

Yeah, 10,000 years tends to make it seem more legendary and distance.

the current batches of space marines are barely known to the general population as legends at best, I highly doubt the population at large knows anything more then that.


so nothing about the primarchs unless someones a scholar or well learned or needs to know for some reason

How much do you know about the pharaohs of Eygpt? Or the great rulers of the stone age?

Probably about as much as the average citizen knows about the Primarchs.

There's vast swathes of humans who've never even heard of the Emperor.

Humankind is measured in the Trillions at this point I believe so yeay probaby a large portion don't really know anything.

Student: Why do we have to give half our harvest in tithe?
Cleric: Because the Emperor demands it
Student: Who is the Emperor?
Cleric: He is the savior of mankind, he protects us and guides us, he sees all and knows all and if you say your prayers and pay your tithes he will protect you.
Student: What does he look like?
Cleric: He looks like this: points to angelic space marine figure with a big power sword on stain glass window
Student: Oh.... I heard he had a golden throne?
Cleric: Indeed, he sits resplendent upon a golden throne as is only right, hence the phrase "Throne protect us" and why our currency is called "Throne Gelt"
Student: Does he have any children?
Cleric: All humanity are the children of the Emperor
Student: I heard that the space marines are the children of the Emperor
Cleric: The Adeptus Astartes are the first sons of the Emperor, they are immortal god warriors which can crush an entire planet alone
Student: Wow, can I be a Space Marine one day?
Cleric: No
Student: So does the Emperor make space marines?
Cleric: The Emperor made the first space marines and then sent them forth to multiply and save the galaxy from oppression, ignorance and corruption
Student: Corruption like mutants?
Cleric: That's right, the Emperor despises mutants
Student: So who was the first space marine ever?
Cleric: Why that would be Robute Gilliam of the Ultramarines
Student: Oh, is he still alive
Cleric: Ofcourse, there is even a statue of him on holy terra, the birth cradle of humanity and the seat of the emperor.
Student: I heard that the emperors first son was called Horus and he actually tried to kill the Emperor and that's why he is actually a big old corpse slumped on his golden throne, rotting for the past 10,000 years. Although it was a strange three eyed crow that told me, and I was high on opium at the time.
Cleric: <BLAM>

In the first Shira Calpurnia book the entire plot is based around a high holy day celebration celebrating Sanguinius. I would think that the loyal primarchs are known and venerated throughout the Imperium, but the excommunicated ones have been buried in history.

It would probably depend on the world and the local Administratum/Inquisition elements, kind of like how Chaos is supposed to be super hidden to everyone, even marines like the Dark Angels who slowly have it revealed to them, and then you have Cadians who are constantly tripping over Chaos...

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Does anyone ever ask what exactly happened to Ferrus Manus? Or Sanguinius? Where the Lion went? Where's Guilliman? Why is the Emperor in a chair?

There are statues of them all over Terra. (least in the art books) Would this line of questioning lead you to the Servitor program?

People might know about some of the primarchs, but they would seem to be legends. Like king david, cleopatra, mark antoni, julius caesar, ghengis khan, marco polo, alexander the great. but think 5-10 times older with more distortion.

A lot of people know who marco polo was(or some idea what he did) but how many people know how he died?

Their knowledge of the primarchs would be from the standpoint of them being mortal, so they would assume they were all dead. They might even know that some of them were betrayed and killed. But who knows much about Brutus(Caesars killer) other than that he killed Caesar.


What they DO NOT know, is that there are 7 traitor primarchs, 7 sons of the emperor alive and well. That would be far more daming to the IoM cause than knowing what happened to Ferrus Manus

wtnind's account is surprisingly good.

The Ecclesiarchy are the main providers of 'book learning' in 40k. The vast majority of citizens won't go to regular school - the brightest and best might get picked out to attend a "sunday school" at the church. Everyone else will learn their trade at the hands of their parents or masters. If they need to be literate to do their destined job, they'll be lucky enough to learn to read.

Yeah its probably more like people sitting around a fire in the evening with Gramps telling a story of Guilliman's conquests or something, which he head when he was younger and as we go they become less and less accurate and embellished, and changed as the story tellers go on.

Sanguinus has a holiday that's celebrated on several planets, IIRC in part to honor his sacrifice. This would imply that at least the citizens of those planets actually DO know about Horus' betrayal (and Sanguinus' sacrifice to stop it)

Even if I'm wrong, at least we know the loyalist primarchs are probably common knowledge (although obviously distorted by 10,000 years of time). Vulkan is part of the promethean cult, so at least his home planet knows about him. Pilgrims come from all over to visit Rouboute's shrine, where Roboute in the flesh actually is.

If anything, although the primarchs might be mythical, Imperial Citizens have proof right there that they really DID exist. That the primarchs existed at all is unquestionable thanks to Roboute (unless one thinks that's a fake body in stasis over there, obviously)

(the Imperial Guard know about Horus at least. There's a reason why some see the title of "Warmaster" as a bad omen)

Oh man, some of these replies appear to have been spat out without much consideration.

Anyway, I believe that the Horus Heresy forms an integral part of Imperial culture.

The authorities will devote a lot of resources to propaganda stories and legends about the HH. Basically portraying the good guys as the biggest Gary-Stus ever (what's new?)

People celebrate Sanguinala and the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, and the Emperor's sacrifice at the hands of Horus forms the foundation of the Imperial Cult.

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Oh man, some of these replies appear to have been spat out without much consideration.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I believe that the Horus Heresy forms an integral part of Imperial culture.

The authorities will devote a lot of resources to propaganda stories and legends about the HH. Basically portraying the good guys as the biggest Gary-Stus ever (what's new?)

People celebrate Sanguinala and the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, and the Emperor's sacrifice at the hands of Horus forms the foundation of the Imperial Cult.

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

That's a pretty interesting point of view you have there. Especially considering, and we know this for a fact, knowledge of Chaos is suppressed on an absolutely massive scale.

That the Emperor's mortal body died and he ascended to god hood (or some variant on that) is a typical mainstay of the Imperial Creed, isn't it? That combined with Sanguinus' holiday makes me pretty darn sure the Horus Heresy is common knowledge (well, common as it can be, at least. Random underhive gangster #23413412531235 that only lives day by day surviving on eating rats might not have heard or cared about it, of course)

I imagine the whole "Chaos" part of the Horus Heresy is covered up, though.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Oh man, some of these replies appear to have been spat out without much consideration.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I believe that the Horus Heresy forms an integral part of Imperial culture.

The authorities will devote a lot of resources to propaganda stories and legends about the HH. Basically portraying the good guys as the biggest Gary-Stus ever (what's new?)

People celebrate Sanguinala and the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, and the Emperor's sacrifice at the hands of Horus forms the foundation of the Imperial Cult.

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

That's a pretty interesting point of view you have there. Especially considering, and we know this for a fact, knowledge of Chaos is suppressed on an absolutely massive scale.

Look no further than the kinds of pointless threads that poster starts on a regular basis.

I could accept that the might hear stories of one of his sons who turned against him in a fruitless rebellion, ala satan. That doesn't necessitate knowing about chaos, but I'm sure there's a heavy emphasis on how stupid it was and how easily and ruthlessly Horus was crushed.

 morganfreeman wrote:

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

That's a pretty interesting point of view you have there. Especially considering, and we know this for a fact, knowledge of Chaos is suppressed on an absolutely massive scale.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Oh man, some of these replies appear to have been spat out without much consideration.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I believe that the Horus Heresy forms an integral part of Imperial culture.

The authorities will devote a lot of resources to propaganda stories and legends about the HH. Basically portraying the good guys as the biggest Gary-Stus ever (what's new?)

People celebrate Sanguinala and the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, and the Emperor's sacrifice at the hands of Horus forms the foundation of the Imperial Cult.

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

That's a pretty interesting point of view you have there. Especially considering, and we know this for a fact, knowledge of Chaos is suppressed on an absolutely massive scale.

Yeah, I'm not contradicting that view. Critical knowledge about Chaos, including how to "get in touch" with the Gods, conducting Chaos rituals and receiving Chaos powers is outright suppressed. This knowledge is definitely very dangerous.

The masses are definitely aware of Chaos, but what they see is just an image or notion crafted by the propaganda department. So the masses only see whatever the government wants them to see.

The masses view Chaos as an "archenemy" that they must unite to defeat, but they don't really know much about or understand it. You don't really need to understand the enemy, all you need to do is to demonize and hate them.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Yeah, I'm not contradicting that view. Critical knowledge about Chaos, including how to "get in touch" with the Gods, conducting Chaos rituals and receiving Chaos powers is outright suppressed. This knowledge is definitely very dangerous.

The masses are definitely aware of Chaos, but what they see is just an image or notion crafted by the propaganda department. So the masses only see whatever the government wants them to see.

The masses view Chaos as an "archenemy" that they must unite to defeat, but they don't really know much about or understand it. You don't really need to understand the enemy, all you need to do is to demonize and hate them.

Ah, no, that's not how the suppression worked. How it used to work was the "No witnesses, no crime scene, nothing happened here, and you're not going to survive to ask questions" approach.

In other words, that wasn't a chaos cult, that was just some random terrorist organization. Aliens are real, there's no such thing as Chaos.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Oh man, some of these replies appear to have been spat out without much consideration.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I believe that the Horus Heresy forms an integral part of Imperial culture.

The authorities will devote a lot of resources to propaganda stories and legends about the HH. Basically portraying the good guys as the biggest Gary-Stus ever (what's new?)

People celebrate Sanguinala and the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, and the Emperor's sacrifice at the hands of Horus forms the foundation of the Imperial Cult.

People are probably given a brief explanation of how Chaos corrupted once good men, and are hence compelled to hate heretics, deviants and be intolerant. And also to listen to authority.

That's a pretty interesting point of view you have there. Especially considering, and we know this for a fact, knowledge of Chaos is suppressed on an absolutely
massive scale.

Look no further than the kinds of pointless threads that poster starts on a regular basis.

First of all, how does that answer morganfreeman's question?

I do have a lot of threads that are just straightforward enquiry rather then encouraging brainstorming, but they often cover topics that are more obscure, kind of like trivia tidbits.

I know you're still butthurt over me calling you an Ultramarines fanboy, but that was just a joke.


Now I'm speaking in general, not directed solely at you:

Many people idolize political figures (which I think is unnecessary anyway), but since Guilliman is no historical figure, there really is no reason to idolize him.

This applies both ways too, there's no reason to love or hate any of[u] the primarchs. What they did is entirely fictional and of no real world consequence at all.

Of course, I acknowledge that it is quite easy for people get caught up and absorbed in a fictional setting, til the point where they start discussing about it as though it was history. We should not fall into that trap, that way of thinking.


So how we should approach discussion of the Primarchs? The key is the author.

Every author wishes to portray his characters in a particular way. So any analysis of a Primarch would be a literary analysis of the novel (or any other piece of writing) he appears in. We should examine the author's intentions.

We must also make room for the fact that the HH series is handled by many different authors and that they are not always consistent.

I have digressed quite a bit but I felt that it would be good time to provide my two cents.

 solkan wrote:

Ah, no, that's not how the suppression worked. How it used to work was the "No witnesses, no crime scene, nothing happened here, and you're not going to survive to ask questions" approach.

In other words, that wasn't a chaos cult, that was just some random terrorist organization. Aliens are real, there's no such thing as Chaos.

TiamatRoar wrote:
That the Emperor's mortal body died and he ascended to god hood (or some variant on that) is a typical mainstay of the Imperial Creed, isn't it? That combined with Sanguinus' holiday makes me pretty darn sure the Horus Heresy is common knowledge (well, common as it can be, at least. Random underhive gangster #23413412531235 that only lives day by day surviving on eating rats might not have heard or cared about it, of course)

I imagine the whole "Chaos" part of the Horus Heresy is covered up, though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

I think the thing to realise here is that there's a difference between Chaos, which is suppressed and knowledge kept from the people, and the Horus Heresy.

Knowledge of Horus' rebellion may well be available - as Max said, Sanguinius' sacrifice, the Emperor's Ascension, these are common knowledge because they're a core part of the Church of the Saviour Emperor's teachings, and were probably adopted by the Convocation of Light after Thor became Ecclesiarch.

However, the stories will be something along the lines of "And while Horus recovered from his wounds, he grew disquiet, and jealousy allowed evil into his heart."

Yeah, I get what you guys are saying. Fair enough, but I wonder what is GW's position on this now. Abaddon has been launching many Black Crusades, it is quite the challenge to suppress total knowledge of the existence of Chaos. Plus every Cadian knows something about Chaos.

Commissars also have to know something to watch out for corruption, and a large number of Guardsmen (many of them conscripts) might also learn something about Chaos along the way.

I definitely could imagine Chaos being used as a propaganda tool, and the Commissars being lowly educated on Chaos, cos the signs of corruption are not that important, all they need to do is to watch out for "disloyal" activities, since from their point of view, heretic = traitor




Though consider it like this, is it really that necessary to deny all existence of Chaos?

Pious Christian parents in middle America don't mind their kids knowing about the existence of the devil.

However, they don't want their kids to dabble in devilish stuff. Tarot cards, Anton LaVey, satanic rituals involving virgin girls being sacrificed, Dungeons & Dragons, Harry Potter and Pokemon.

Telling people that Chaos makes good girls go bad might not make them go bad as well. For instance, I might tell someone about how tarot cards are evil and ban all tarot cards. I will never give them a pack to play with and experiment. I will also tell them to immediately snitch on anyone they see playing the cards.

Like you'll never hide the existence of weed from your kids, you'll just tell them how bad (and never how good) it is. And you might propagate myths that suit your propaganda purpose, like "weed is a gateway drug". And no, I'm not pro-weed or anything, just using it as an example

Maximus Bitch wrote:

First of all, how does that answer morganfreeman's question?

I do have a lot of threads that are just straightforward enquiry rather then encouraging brainstorming, but they often cover topics that are more obscure, kind of like trivia tidbits.

I know you're still butthurt over me calling you an Ultramarines fanboy, but that was just a joke.

I honestly have no recollection of that. It would hopefully have been a joke because if it was serious, it's only a mark against your powers of observation.

I was just pointing out that you have a marked tendency to clutter up the forum with threads of little value. Such as the amazing Why do Space Marines wear stilts? where you asked a question laced with an unuibstantiated claim, and then never returned to your own thread.

Basically, if there was a Least Valuable Poster award on this forum, you'd be in clear contention. Probably only rivaled by LightKing. You bring no knowledge to act as an expert to resolve the questions of others on the background, and enthusiastically and voluminously provide incorrect or misleading ideas. One in five of your posts is a new topic, meaning you're not even here for discussion. You're just here to feed some kind of strange Internet desire to be the center of attention.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Though consider it like this, is it really that necessary to deny all existence of Chaos?

Pious Christian parents in middle America don't mind their kids knowing about the existence of the devil.

However, they don't want their kids to dabble in devilish stuff. Tarot cards, Anton LaVey, satanic rituals involving virgin girls being sacrificed, Dungeons & Dragons, Harry Potter and Pokemon.

Telling people that Chaos makes good girls go bad might not make them go bad as well. For instance, I might tell someone about how tarot cards are evil and ban all tarot cards. I will never give them a pack to play with and experiment. I will also tell them to immediately snitch on anyone they see playing the cards.

Like you'll never hide the existence of weed from your kids, you'll just tell them how bad (and never how good) it is. And you might propagate myths that suit your propaganda purpose, like "weed is a gateway drug". And no, I'm not pro-weed or anything, just using it as an example

I get that, that's a reasonable way to think about how the Imperium could treat Chaos. I would expect this level of niño ledge in worlds that are quite advanced, generally free, and unlike the majority of worlds in the imperium.

I personally prefer a vision of the Imperium that is more intolerant and harsher on its subjects. I think that sort of dystopia makes for a more interesting universe to play in.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Yeah, I get what you guys are saying. Fair enough, but I wonder what is GW's position on this now. Abaddon has been launching many Black Crusades, it is quite the challenge to suppress total knowledge of the existence of Chaos. Plus every Cadian knows something about Chaos.

Commissars also have to know something to watch out for corruption, and a large number of Guardsmen (many of them conscripts) might also learn something about Chaos along the way.

I definitely could imagine Chaos being used as a propaganda tool, and the Commissars being lowly educated on Chaos, cos the signs of corruption are not that important, all they need to do is to watch out for "disloyal" activities, since from their point of view, heretic = traitor

It's just Imperial citizens where Chaos is censored.

The Imperial Guard knows about it. I'm pretty sure that's explicitly stated somewhere that they at least get the bare bones knowledge of it (the guardsmen that were executed for contact with demons like the Unlucky 13's and the IG on Armageddon were killed not because of the knowledge of chaos, but because of the risk of being tainted after touching it)

EVERY member of Cadian's civilian population is also Imperial Guard (they conscript at a 1 to 1 rate). So technically, every Cadian is "authorized" to know about Chaos, although I dunno if GW ever explicitly stated that.

Planetary Governors also know. There are several short stories from Planetary Governors' perspectives that shows this. It's part of their job to monitor the planet for Chaos corruption, after all.

Arbiters know, too (really, anyone who comes from the schola does. The Imperium can generally trust those people). Again, it's their job in part to search for Chaos. Several short stories mention arbiter reports of "chaos cult activity", etc.

The ecclesiarchy also knows. Part of their job is to take chaos-worshipping humans on new planets who aren't too far gone and gradually bend their religions to the Emperor, and to guard against Chaos doing the same thing (which Chaos tries to do often. Quite a few stories about people who started worshipping the Emperor but "the Emperor" was subtlely changed to Chaos over time)

Of course, the greatest of Chaos' secrets are just for the Ordos Malleus and Grey Knights, but general information about it is known by all Imperial Organizations that need it.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

[color=orange]Though consider it like this, is it really that necessary to deny all existence of Chaos?

Pious Christian parents in middle America don't mind their kids knowing about the existence of the devil.

However, they don't want their kids to dabble in devilish stuff. Tarot cards, Anton LaVey, satanic rituals involving virgin girls being sacrificed, Dungeons & Dragons, Harry Potter and Pokemon.

You seem to be mistaking the world background material describes for one where the devil doesn't exist. And you're also providing the basic reason why the knowledge is suppressed: "Innocent" or "ignorant" psykers experimenting with "Chaos" causing a demonic invasion in Hive Planet X23019 [[Record of planet and invasion purged]].

Heresy is heresy. That's all anyone needs to know. The space marines can do a fine job of protecting people from heretics by killing the heretics, same with the guard, and the commoners can admire them for doing so, while never learning any of the details, and without "Chaos" existing in the common knowledge.

Holy sons of the Emperor who fought against vile xenos. Simple. How did they die? Well, that's where I'm lost.

The existence of non-loyalist Primarchs is hidden from the Imperium at large. i.e. the traitor Primarch statues were taken down around the Imperial palaces

Chaos is not hidden from normal citizens... In the infantry mens uplifting Prime there are alot of Passages about chaos

 winterwind85 wrote:
Chaos is not hidden from normal citizens... In the infantry mens uplifting Prime there are alot of Passages about chaos

The soldiery is different from ye average citizen of the Imperium. Despite how massive the armies of the Imperium are, the civilian population is much larger.

The church doubtlessly speaks of evil, corrupting heretics, and the demons luring the righteous from the path of the Emporer's Light.. But just in abstracts and watered down. Mention of the warp, Chaos itself, Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, ect is not going to be even remotely present - because it would make some curious.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Holy sons of the Emperor who fought against vile xenos. Simple. How did they die? Well, that's where I'm lost.

How did they die?

In heroic sacrifice for the Imperium. They are the greatest of men because they make that great sacrifice in His name, and because they served knowing that one day they would be called upon to do so.