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I apologize in advance. This started as simple post and as I began to write more it slowly turned into an essay.

I have been reading a lot of fluff lately and I have come to a conundrum. We are given the idea that the Emperor of mankind is a super evolved being made up of the gestalt consciousness of hundreds of prehistoric shaman psykers, whose entire goal was to protect humanity from external threats, namely Chaos. Propaganda about his divinity aside, he was an incredibly powerful being who used his near limitless power to affect the outcomes and destinies of countless trillions of people, and it could be said that his precognitive abilities and super human intellect gave him something akin to divine omnipotence through the manipulation of probable futures. However I see how he handled some things in the story line that suggests he was not benevolent or pseudo-divine, but like every other tyrannical despot in human history. The two major contentions have developed as I have learned more about the fluff that have led me to see the Emperor as an overgrown, petulant, child who views humanity and the galaxy at large as his plaything.
The first is the whole concept of the space marine and Primarch project and all of the devices and events he used to launch his Great Crusade. He claims to want to protect mankind and lead it into a glorious future. But his initial approach to this was to create an entirely new species of human that is superior in most aspects, and use them to either dictate his will or forcibly make all of humanity follow him. He assumes his vision is what is best for humanity and doesn't take into account the will of humanity at large. He claims to want what is best for humanity but almost removes actual humans from the equation. The relationship would be more akin to zoo keeper and animal than leader and constituency. Each nation in our current planet has unique issues and problems that require different solutions. I can only imagine that this necessary differentiation only goes up by several orders of magnitude when taken to a pan galactic scale. He didn’t ask anyone if they wanted to join his empire. He basically said join or die. And by attempting to conquer humanity and impose a flawed system on those he conquered because the thought it was best and failing, due mainly to hubris, that most human of flaws, he expanded both despair and chaos to many worlds that didn’t have it. That just makes him the latest in a long line of tyrannical despots, and arguably the worst thing to ever happen to humanity. If he hadn’t gone on his Great Crusade or attempted to unify humanity, it, in its isolated pockets, would probably have eventually regained the technology of the past, and regained some semblance of order and prosperity. Without the Great Crusade, every major event and problem mankind faces such as: Chaos incursions, due to the fact that without marines, the forces of chaos could only manifest as daemon incursions which are exceedingly rare; Tyranids, being brought to our galaxy by the Astronomicon; and Necrons, which wouldn’t have started waking up if the Imperium hadn’t stumbled upon them. These would not be threats at all or at least would be threats isolated to specific regions and wouldn’t threaten humanity as a whole. The worlds around the Tau would benefit from their technology and shared vision of brotherhood. The elder would treat ever world of humanity differently. The biggest threat would come from Orks and humanity had been fighting them with mixed results for several thousand years already. That is the Macroscopic view I have come to about the emperor, my second complaint is more microscopic in nature.
Despite publicly censuring several of his Primarchs and their legions, which I don’t think he recognized as anything more than the toys of each of his Primarchs, by destroying cities and killing anywhere from thousands to millions of his subjects just to punish his sons, the one event that shows his gross negligence is the case of the Thousand Sons. The flesh change was upon them and, despite the Emperor being the greatest psyker in humanity ever; he basically throws his hands up in resignation and doesn’t even try to fix it. He give the legion to Magnus after he is found and instead of helping his son fix his legion he basically drops them off like misbehaving dogs at the sitter on Prospero and says “good luck with this one son” and leaves. He knows the dangers of delving into psychic sorcery and knows that it the only thing his son knows and would resort to fix his legion. When Magnus emerges several years later, having fixed the issue and missing an eye it is almost like the Emperor said “good job son, but don’t tell me how you did it wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more” I understand that he had more pressing issues with the Great Crusade, but if he saw sorcery as a big enough deal to pause parts of the Crusade to call the council of Nikea, (I see what they did there, with their historical allegory and what not), why would he just ignore this potentially huge problem? In his seemingly infinite wisdom and his ability to see things as they are in other people, why could he not see that his own hubris would lead to the downfall of the race he wanted to protect, and how could he not see that Humanity’s greatest chance for survival would be small pockets of diverse worlds rather than one huge conglomerate that is shackled to the well being of its individual constituent plants and systems?
I guess my question is this: Was the Emperor humanity’s greatest enemy from the start? The galaxy was seeded with humanity during the Dark Age of Technology, and tens of thousands of worlds were existing just fine in their own individual ways at different developmental stages across the galaxy. Terra and Mars were experiencing something akin to the state of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, and all the emperor did during his great crusade was to bring the dysfunctional and eternally oppressive bureaucracy and the problems of Terra to other worlds.

No he wasn't.

Humanity would be gone if he hadn't formed or guided it. He was reluctant to lead, which is why he changed things from the background but eventually had to step forward after the collapse to reunite and defend those humans separated and divided after the birth of Slaanesh.

Humanity would be gone if he hadn't formed or guided it.

I would argue that the Imperium of man would be gone without him, but humanity would survive on all of the pre-imperium worlds. The Imperium of Man and humanity are not the same thing.

Without the Imperium, how would any human world hold up to any of the major threats in the setting? Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and so on.

 curran12 wrote:
Without the Imperium, how would any human world hold up to any of the major threats in the setting? Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and so on.

I addressed these issues in my original post. They would deal with them on an individual basis, and crons and tyranids wouldn't be a threat because their emergence or reemergence are a direct result of the expansion and trappings of the imperium of man.

You do know Humans wouldn't be able travel without the Astronomican correct?
You think they could measure to a single race in 40K without viable interstellar travel?
You think disunited Humanity could stand up to 40k's threats which are barely contained by a United Humanity?

Besides the Tyranids following the Astronomican was never established as fact.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Without the Imperium, how would any human world hold up to any of the major threats in the setting? Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and so on.

I addressed these issues in my original post. They would deal with them on an individual basis, and crons and tyranids wouldn't be a threat because their emergence or reemergence are a direct result of the expansion and trappings of the imperium of man.

The Necron Empire was forged long before mankind even existed, human settlements being formed on the ruins of the slumbering machines within, and the Tyranids are from a galaxy far far away. They are a threat to what ever gets in their path. The Necrons were bound to wake up sooner or later and it has nothing to do with the expansion. Necrons weren't a problem 10,000 years ago during the crusade, a time when things were quite a bit more happening shall we say.

The Imperium as a whole struggles to deal with any major incursion from these threats, so a single planet of humans wouldn't likely fair too well.

I might have missed some of the points in your huge block of text, it's awfully difficult to read like that.

You're flat out incorrect on the subject of Necrons. And "they'll deal with them on an individual basis" is very, very flippant and handwavey without any kind of solid basis in the setting.

Several things to consider:

The premise of the OP assumes the Necrons weren't eventually going to wake up without the IoM. Has it been established that it's anything particular about the Imperium that is causing the Necrons to return or are they finally awakening because they're just awakening? If it's human exploration then clearly an individual or small human empire or even random other Xenos like the Orks or Tau could have just as easily stumbled on a tomb world and woke it up.

It also assumes that the Tyranid were never just going to stumble across the galaxy by accident. It's been said that they've consumed who knows how many other worlds or galaxies, so something draws them to each place. Maybe they showed up a bit sooner than they otherwise would have, but if humanity was still a fragmented patchwork of independent systems and petty empires etc... then each one would easily become lunch for a Tyranid fleet and they'd devour humanity piecemeal.

If the Orks happened to put together an empire the size of Ullanor or an Armageddon or Beast-sized Waaaaggghhh I doubt splintered human worlds could withstand it. (Whether those Waaaagggghhhs would form without an IoM to draw their attention is certainly debatable).

Chaos existed with or without the IoM and would have continued to do Chaosy things. Lots of human and xenos worlds were tainted by Chaos prior to the IoM, like the Laer or the bunch on Colchis where Lorgar ended up. Frankly it might well have happened that Chaos may have found some sort of champion to "unite" a shattered humanity following the Age of Strife which probably wouldn't have ended well for most of the galaxy.

Eldar might deal with every human world differently...but, since they're Eldar and can be complete jerks, maybe they'd have decided to nip potential trouble in the bud and just wipe out humanity before it had a chance to grow. Can't always trust those Sphess Elves to be benevolent.

Dark Eldar and Tau are still out there plus the innumerable other Xenos species that populated the galaxy and would have been a strong threat to a splintered humanity.

Without a united humanity, there was probably zero chance of long-term survival in this rough-and-tumble galaxy.

Now none of this means that the uber-Utilitarian approach to the galaxy that the Emperor took was the perfect one, nor that he handled it's execution particularly well, which is an understatement if there ever was one. His reactions to many of the Primarchs problems and feelings is really inexplicable in many cases and probably isn't really ever going to be explained to any satisfaction in the fluff (how could it?) but to call him Humanity's Greatest Enemy isn't really correct.

That 40K title is better reserved for Tom Kirby.

Khonsu wrote:
You do know Humans wouldn't be able travel without the Astronomican correct?
You think they could measure to a single race in 40K without viable interstellar travel?
You think disunited Humanity could stand up to 40k's threats which are barely contained by a United Humanity?

Short FTL travel is possible without the astronomicon. but it is limited to small jumps at a time. it is how humanity progressed before the age of imperium.

I'm not saying that ll of the worlds would survive but small regional empire would crop up, much as they had during the age of strife. and those empire would probably be able to defend against all but the largest incursions of Orks. As far as crons are concerned, i don't think the current Imperium is handling them well, and ultimately they wont be able to hold them back when the entire cron race comes out of slumber. if they still have access to tech form the war in heaven, then everyone who isnt eldar is screwed. So to hold up the necron threat as a reason that the Imperium of man puts humanity in an better spot than if each system were independent is invalid, in my opinion.

the crux of my argument is that the "unity" of humanity under the imperium is a major contributor to the problems faced by humanity. Some systems would fall to threats but others would prosper undisturbed in the vastness of the galaxy.

I must say that humanities greatest enemy in the 40k setting isn't the Emperor. He is the sustaining force for the Imperium and most of the problems that occur are due to the IoM and the current management. The Imperium could be run better but without the Emperor there would be no humanity left. As it has been said the IoM has barely survived. A splintered humanity would be totally crushed. The Imperium isn't perfect but 40k is grimdark and so it is better than total destruction planet by planet. Contrast an Imperium held planet or sector with how the squats fared.

 Coldstream wrote:
Frankly it might well have happened that Chaos may have found some sort of champion to "unite" a shattered humanity following the Age of Strife which probably wouldn't have ended well for most of the galaxy.

According to Chaos, they DID find some sort of champion to unite a shattered humanity. You might know him today as the Emperor.

.....needless to say, that didn't really go as well as Chaos had hoped.

(for those who don't get it, Chaos claims that they made a deal with the Emperor but he betrayed them)

 GKTiberius wrote:

the crux of my argument is that the "unity" of humanity under the imperium is a major contributor to the problems faced by humanity. Some systems would fall to threats but others would prosper undisturbed in the vastness of the galaxy.

That's hilariously like arguing that the United States would be better off without the interstate road system.

There wouldn't be very many "small regional empires" because the various minor, trivial alien races that the Emperor's crusades took out would be developing into things like the Tau empire.

Lol Considering 30k Orks like the "Primork"(I think I just invented that name, Might call him the Emperork of Ullanor) which almost killed the Emperor by his own, I don't think disunited Humanity would have a shred of a chance of surviving past 30k without the Emperor.

Nope. The way he dealt with his sons was.

I would argue that the Emperor never did overcome his original Purpose or programming as a reincarnation of all the old shamans. All his attempts through the ages to try and encourage "harmony" for humanity failed because humanity had developed and advanced beyond the simple paleolithic or neolithic society of the shamans. Humanity was not so easily controlled anymore and the Emperor's attempts at just influencing either did not have enough effect, or grew out of his control into things he did not want.

The Great Crusade and the Emperor coming out as a warlord and leader can be seen as an act of desperation or impatience after thousands of years of failure. With events and humanity spiralling out of control and humanity spread across the galaxy, things were slipping further and faster beyond the Emperor's grasp and ability to influence on any large scale. The Crusade was one drastic attempt to control all of humanity. However part of the reason for its failure was the fact it was an externally imposed form of political control on the masses, with little change on their internal natures. In the short term though the Emperor sees massive success in conquering much of the galaxy in a short period of time, and I would argue it is the very speed and ease of his success that blinds the Emperor to the looming threat of Horus and the other unresolved flaws and fault lines in the Imperium and among the Primarchs.

It wasn't an attempt to control humanity. It was an attempt to protect it. Unlike most, the Empetor had an idea of the horrors of the universe and knew humanity stood no chance alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It wasn't an attempt to control humanity. It was an attempt to protect it. Unlike most, the Empetor had an idea of the horrors of the universe and knew humanity stood no chance alone.

Makes me curious as to how the Interex and the Auretian Technocracy would have grown by the 40th Millenium especially considering how the Interex were devoted to combating Chaos and were technologically superior to the Imperium (though not devoted to conquest at the time) while the Auretian Technocracy had access to at least power armor.

 King Pariah wrote:
Makes me curious as to how the Interex and the Auretian Technocracy would have grown by the 40th Millenium especially considering how the Interex were devoted to combating Chaos and were technologically superior to the Imperium (though not devoted to conquest at the time) while the Auretian Technocracy had access to at least power armor.

Both were too peaceful to thrive in 40th Millenium, They wouldn't have had the manpower, I doubt they'd survive that long.

Khonsu wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
Makes me curious as to how the Interex and the Auretian Technocracy would have grown by the 40th Millenium especially considering how the Interex were devoted to combating Chaos and were technologically superior to the Imperium (though not devoted to conquest at the time) while the Auretian Technocracy had access to at least power armor.

Both were too peaceful to thrive in 40th Millenium, They wouldn't have had the manpower, I doubt they'd survive that long.

Well, if you toss out of the setting the presence of the Emperor, the Primarchs are probably going to be outside of the picture as well. The Interex, the Auretian Technocracy and possibly the Ultramar region of space would have been the best bets for mankind's resurgence as a galactic presence. I don't see an Empire arising from Terra with the techno-barbaric warlords, perhaps something coming out of Mars lest Terra and Mars wipe each other out.

So perhaps those regions of mankind are too peaceful in the 30th Millenium. Would it really take that much for them to wisen up? Otherwise, there probably wouldn't be mankind by the 40th Millenium. The Interex were already aware of and fighting Chaos, probably wouldn't have the issue of having super soldiers turning against their Empire. If mankind has a chance to survive as a mostly unified force in the 40th Millenium - as slim as it is - I'd put my money on the Interex. Auretian Technocracy would be pretty badass. Military filled with humans in power armor... Starcraft anyone? lol

 King Pariah wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
Makes me curious as to how the Interex and the Auretian Technocracy would have grown by the 40th Millenium especially considering how the Interex were devoted to combating Chaos and were technologically superior to the Imperium (though not devoted to conquest at the time) while the Auretian Technocracy had access to at least power armor.

Both were too peaceful to thrive in 40th Millenium, They wouldn't have had the manpower, I doubt they'd survive that long.

Well, if you toss out of the setting the presence of the Emperor, the Primarchs are probably going to be outside of the picture as well. The Interex, the Auretian Technocracy and possibly the Ultramar region of space would have been the best bets for mankind's resurgence as a galactic presence. I don't see an Empire arising from Terra with the techno-barbaric warlords, perhaps something coming out of Mars lest Terra and Mars wipe each other out.

So perhaps those regions of mankind are too peaceful in the 30th Millenium. Would it really take that much for them to wisen up? Otherwise, there probably wouldn't be mankind by the 40th Millenium. The Interex were already aware of and fighting Chaos, probably wouldn't have the issue of having super soldiers turning against their Empire. If mankind has a chance to survive as a mostly unified force in the 40th Millenium - as slim as it is - I'd put my money on the Interex. Auretian Technocracy would be pretty badass. Military filled with humans in power armor... Starcraft anyone? lol

They are too small, Besides Ultramar?
Without Roboute Ultramar wouldn't be half it was, Auretians and Interex are peaceniks, And without a united humanity Chaos would triumph as Chaos already had thrall Empires of its own.
Without the Emperor humanity wouldn't stand a chance at all, Without the Emperor's mistakes humanity would have thrived.

In a galaxy without the Imperium, Interex's peaceful nature means Chaos probably would have just enveloped the surrounding systems and then, with all that might, smoosh the Interex. Really, if Horus's current army at the area (which was no where near the totality of all the legions involved in the Great Crusade) could crush it, I imagine Chaos could have done the same after corrupting a few neighbors.

No. The Arch traitor Horus was the greatest enemy of humanity. No doubt humanity would have had it better if the Emperor wasn't a rotting corpse.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
No. The Arch traitor Horus was the greatest enemy of humanity. No doubt humanity would have had it better if the Emperor wasn't a rotting corpse.

"Because I said so!"
That's the vibe your post gives.

Uhm, okay? Should I put ''IMO'' in my every post now? I speak for myself, and don't claim my words to be fact. Relax.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Uhm, okay? Should I put ''IMO'' in my every post now? I speak for myself, and don't claim my words to be fact. Relax.

I actually read that as the Emperor being humanity's enemy, Apologies.

Most definately not.
Humanity would have been like the lights burning out on a Christmas tree one at a time as the human worlds were extinguished one at a time. Not that mankind is not fighting a losing battle now of course, but without him mankind would have already been wiped out altogether by ravaging orks, bugs (they were coming regardless), the crons (on the worlds where humans were they were gonna wake up regardless), Chaos would take root and corrupt/wipe out human planets (or at least turn them into gibbering mutants that no longer bear the name humanity) and so forth.

Then I guess, the follow up question is, if humanity would have been doomed without him, but his actions led directly to the rapidly declining, unsustainable situation mankind finds itself in now, was humanity worth trying to save? And if so, how could anyone, the emperor included, done a better job against such odds?

 GKTiberius wrote:
Then I guess, the follow up question is, if humanity would have been doomed without him, but his actions led directly to the rapidly declining, unsustainable situation mankind finds itself in now, was humanity worth trying to save? And if so, how could anyone, the emperor included, done a better job against such odds?

Long-story-short, the Emperor's vast well of experience and extreme intelligence was what brought about what happened.

He was ancient beyond belief, and while extremely intelligent, had become completely detached from what it meant to be human or to really empathize with others. Subsequently his treatment of his "sons" was... off, in many ways. This led to schisms which Chaos was allowed to take root in, widening them into cracks. From there, the Horus Heresy bloomed.

It's not quite that simple though, for too many reasons to go over. I'll touch upon a few quickly:
1: What happened was not even what Chaos intended to happen, at least not at first. They wanted Magnus to be the first to fall - yet Magnus only fell because of what Horus had the Space Wolves do to his legion and homeworld. The point here is that, no matter what the Emperor did or how he treated his sons, odds are the heresy would have happened regardless.
2: This is, honestly, the most important one. Despite being disconnected from humanity and 'normal' emotions, Empy did love the feth out of his kids. When he confronted Horus, he could've out-right slain him (obliterated his soul even) immediately if he wanted to, but he did not. He loved his son enough that, even though he knew better, he drew things out to try and redeem him. Only upon watching his corrupted son brutally murder his other one, and then subsequently being mortally wounded while he was distracted, did the Emperor finally manage to overcome his love and obliterate Horus. Basically, despite not being a 'good father', the Emperor really did care for his children. He essentially sacrificed all of humanities progress and future just so he could try and redeem one of his children.

I see where you are going with that, like a Dr. Manhattan feel from Watchmen. If the flaw in his plans were his sons, and his compassion for them above all else, why didn't he either create new Primarchs or clones of the existing Primarchs. If the Emperor knew they had been taken by chaos, wouldn't it stand to reason that at least some of them, *cough* Loregar *cough*, could have been tainted by chaos?Also he could have change his military structure model after the Primarchs were stolen. That seems like a pretty big hole in his plan