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 Desubot wrote:
The game isnt about getting good with only 1 character

its about switching up things to counter a team comp or a particular style of defense.

I play way too much tracer though :/

like 20hours too much.

I understand that, but if I go into a game and I feel like playing a particular hero that day I don't want to get my head ripped off just because I wanted to play that particular hero that day. It's why I never got into League of Legends or anything like that. I want to play the hero that I want to play without everyone getting mad at me.

Then just play the character. there is no real limit on how many of what characters can be on a team.

but its a team game. at best get a group of your friends together so you can practice a team comp that involves tracer.

I love it with gravaton pulse + pulse bombs though i always manage to stick the rhineheart shield.

I'm sorry, it's just that reading through some of the posts in this thread gave me the distinct impression that if I wasn't careful about my hero choice my team would skin me alive.

I've not had that issue, at all. And it's not so much being careful, as being willing to change if you want to win. There's a lot of fun just learning with a hero or two that you like, getting good with them- the issues come up when the enemy team has heroes that counter your faves, and it ends up not being quite as fun to play them- which is when you switch to a different fave to counter-counter them.


But 'maining' a character is by no means going to get you crucified, especially if you end up getting really good with them- a good Tracer, for example, is both very hard to counter and very dangerous for the enemy (though ironically Winston counters her pretty well)- same with a good Reinhardt or Roadhog tanking it up, and if you're a good Support of any kind your team will love you, and you shall be looked upon with respect from both sides of the battlefield.

 War Kitten wrote:
I'm sorry, it's just that reading through some of the posts in this thread gave me the distinct impression that if I wasn't careful about my hero choice my team would skin me alive.

You'll get some harassment eventually. Mostly when your team isn't doing well, you might be sitting on gold medals but someone is going to argue that you're not doing it right. The game isn't made with a main hero in mind, certain heroes are worse on certain maps or at least part of them. Tracer for instance isn't going to do much in the final segments of payload, those tend to turn into brutal grind with good spots for widowmaker. Tracer and Genji on defending side also aren't that hot, but I've seen some good play from them.

Fortunately there's rich spectre of heroes. Lucio for instance is fast and every map is a test of your parkour skills (Numbani is really your personal playground). Soldier 76 has sprint that makes him fast and really good with repositioning and covering flanks. Still the nature of quick games is that you'll usually play with unoptimised groups, nothing unusual to see two Genjis (gods above and below have mercy, if they're good tho) or two Tracers. Two Pharah can dominate teams in king of the hill scenario, especially, if there's no 76 or Widowmaker on your team to ground them.

The game is definitely fun, especially when you play them with regular people (easier to practice your desired hero too). Even for soloQ, you'll get far less negativity and harassment than in LoL. If it's up to any consolation I think Blizz said that up to a certain level, the matchmaking will try to match you with people that are equally new in his eyes. Note that Blizz kept your time spend in beta and your records (MMR) so more experienced players don't qualify for this.

If you are playing Hanzo and Widowmaker on a payload offence team, your team might not like you. Or Tracer or Geniji on defence when the enemy doesn't have a bastion on a payload.

The team will love you if you play a support or tank well, though. And if you are ridiculously good with a hero, nobody will care what you play.

For the most part folks are too busy shooting things to ride anyone's ass that hard over comp. You'll get that one guy stuck on an offense hero going "We need a healer" "We need a healer" in every 3 matches or so, but even they tend to shut up pretty fast. In general it's far from the best community i've played in but it's also not ultra toxic. When complaining happens it's usually limited to a few words at the very start or end of a game.

Quite. I had some guy spamming "I need healing" and writing in all caps once he died that I should swap to Mercy.

Had one of better games afterwards. Two tanks, two healers and DPS I think. We moved in coordinated force and it was beautiful.

I'm fond of telliing any non-tank who says 'we need a healer' they they're free to swap. Especially if I've healed the last few rounds or I am the tank.

That said, the other day I got stuck in an attacking team who insisted they not only needed a Widowmaker, but TWO Symmetras. It's a bit like list building by committee.

Lucio isn't a real healer. He has the weakest health restoring ability, unless the team groups up.

Certain teams just know how to prioritise and focus down the enemy. Plenty of times I had Genji jumped on me (sometimes with an ult) and I couldn't do anything. Shortly afterwards I get confused chatter: "Where was our healer, we melted in seconds". There's something wrong, if there's a line behind me (don't do that if I hug a corner/cover, chances are that I'm hiding from the sniper) and people are spamming "I need healing".

So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

 Knight wrote:
Lucio isn't a real healer. He has the weakest health restoring ability, unless the team groups up.

Certain teams just know how to prioritise and focus down the enemy. Plenty of times I had Genji jumped on me (sometimes with an ult) and I couldn't do anything. Shortly afterwards I get confused chatter: "Where was our healer, we melted in seconds". There's something wrong, if there's a line behind me (don't do that if I hug a corner/cover, chances are that I'm hiding from the sniper) and people are spamming "I need healing".

Yeah, when I'm playing Mercy I hate the games that basically boil down to, "I make my way back to the fight, one or two enemy players immediately run past my team and kill me."

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

Torbjorn's counter is explosives. Junkrat and Phara don't need "accuracy".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

Torbjorn's counter is explosives. Junkrat and Phara don't need "accuracy".

Junkrat needs SOME accuracy, especially on console where input is far more imprecise, which is the reason for torbi stacks. You don't need to aim, or look around, just sit there and smack every so often with your hammer, and then go collect scrap and drop armor kits and maybe pop an ult every so often.

And for Parah, she definitely needs accuracy, her AoE isn't massive, and does low damage/dps if you don't get direct hits.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

Torbjorn's counter is explosives. Junkrat and Phara don't need "accuracy".

Junkrat needs SOME accuracy, especially on console where input is far more imprecise, which is the reason for torbi stacks. You don't need to aim, or look around, just sit there and smack every so often with your hammer, and then go collect scrap and drop armor kits and maybe pop an ult every so often.

The "input is far more imprecise" is garbage. It's typical PC master race garbage. I play Junkrat just fine on XB1--and if there's one Torbjorn? I can deal with him just fine.

What I can't do is deal with multiple Torbjorns, camped up in corners that the grenades can't be bounced at or where the Rip Tire gets shot to hell before it gets there. That's the issue here; not accuracy or any such nonsense.

The issue is that it is allowed for there to be whole teams of a single character.

And for Parah, she definitely needs accuracy, her AoE isn't massive, and does low damage/dps if you don't get direct hits.

Phara really doesn't need accuracy, she needs LOS.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

Torbjorn's counter is explosives. Junkrat and Phara don't need "accuracy".

Junkrat needs SOME accuracy, especially on console where input is far more imprecise, which is the reason for torbi stacks. You don't need to aim, or look around, just sit there and smack every so often with your hammer, and then go collect scrap and drop armor kits and maybe pop an ult every so often.

The "input is far more imprecise" is garbage. It's typical PC master race garbage. I play Junkrat just fine on XB1--and if there's one Torbjorn? I can deal with him just fine.

What I can't do is deal with multiple Torbjorns, camped up in corners that the grenades can't be bounced at or where the Rip Tire gets shot to hell before it gets there. That's the issue here; not accuracy or any such nonsense.

The issue is that it is allowed for there to be whole teams of a single character.

And for Parah, she definitely needs accuracy, her AoE isn't massive, and does low damage/dps if you don't get direct hits.

Phara really doesn't need accuracy, she needs LOS.

1. Cool, glad you can use it just fine, that doesn't stop a controller being objectively worse for shooters. On PC if there are multiple Torbis, I can deal with them all just fine, be it genji, junkrat, parah, pretty much whatever. (Anecdotal experience is meaningless)

2. right, because hitting anyone with the most basic awareness from across the map is SOOOO easy. Most people move when she lobs rockets across map, (go figure).

3. Again, think the issue might be that torbi is OP so that's why he gets stacked? Because he doesn't need to aim, that makes him more powerful in pubs? This isn't personal experience with him, this is data coming from Blizzard saying "Torbi wins too much, so we're nerfing him." He's got like a 70% win rate on consoles, and a 60% on PC (which is still pretty high)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So they're nerfing Torbjorn on consoles...

I love the people saying that the reason Torbjorn is so dangerous on consoles is because of "inaccuracy for gamepads". Totally not because of stacking Torbjorns.

...which might be the reason people stack torbi.

Torbjorn's counter is explosives. Junkrat and Phara don't need "accuracy".

Junkrat needs SOME accuracy, especially on console where input is far more imprecise, which is the reason for torbi stacks. You don't need to aim, or look around, just sit there and smack every so often with your hammer, and then go collect scrap and drop armor kits and maybe pop an ult every so often.

The "input is far more imprecise" is garbage. It's typical PC master race garbage. I play Junkrat just fine on XB1--and if there's one Torbjorn? I can deal with him just fine.

What I can't do is deal with multiple Torbjorns, camped up in corners that the grenades can't be bounced at or where the Rip Tire gets shot to hell before it gets there. That's the issue here; not accuracy or any such nonsense.

The issue is that it is allowed for there to be whole teams of a single character.

And for Parah, she definitely needs accuracy, her AoE isn't massive, and does low damage/dps if you don't get direct hits.

Phara really doesn't need accuracy, she needs LOS.

1. Cool, glad you can use it just fine, that doesn't stop a controller being objectively worse for shooters. On PC if there are multiple Torbis, I can deal with them all just fine, be it genji, junkrat, parah, pretty much whatever. (Anecdotal experience is meaningless)

So basically your argument is that you can deal with them just fine so it must be because of mouse and keyboard?
Okay there, bud...

2. right, because hitting anyone with the most basic awareness from across the map is SOOOO easy. Most people move when she lobs rockets across map, (go figure).

Yes or No question:
Do turrets move when Phara fires rockets at them?

(the answer is "no"; go figure)

3. Again, think the issue might be that torbi is OP so that's why he gets stacked? Because he doesn't need to aim, that makes him more powerful in pubs? This isn't personal experience with him, this is data coming from Blizzard saying "Torbi wins too much, so we're nerfing him." He's got like a 70% win rate on consoles, and a 60% on PC (which is still pretty high)

I'm not sure what you're getting at beyond simply confirming exactly what I'm saying? The mouse+keyboard argument is garbage.

The reasons Torbjorn gets stacked is:
A) He's super effective, with little to no input from the player.
B) Crummy map design allowing for choke points.
C) People like padding their W/L ratios.
D) He can be stacked.

1. No, I can deal with them just fine because I'm not fighting my input system, and that wasn't even the point. The point was anecdotal experience is meaningless. Just because you can aim fine with a controller doesn't mean everyone else is just as good/bad/average at it as you are.

2. Whoa whoa, we were talking about Parah as a whole here. But for turrets, what if she can't get LoS? or torbi simply smacks it with his hammer a few times to keep it up? Or, what if because it's harder to aim on console you miss more shots. And, even if Parah kills the turret, torbi can get another up pretty quickly. You know what, scratch that this has nothing to do with the problem of torbi, any hero can kill his turrets with varying degrees of success depending on the conditions.

3. Again, you can keep claiming that but his winrate is lower on PC because aiming quickly is a thing. Also, glad you finally understand what I'm getting at. With an inferior control scheme/input method, Torbi is pretty strong because aiming is harder on a console that it is on PC. If KB&M were options for consoles then I think Torbi's win rate would be lower.

You keep saying the KB&M argument is bad, but I've yet to see you give some proof or reasons as to why it is. Removing one of the hardest things on console (aiming/reacting quickly in a fast paced shooter) is why he's so strong.

 Wolfblade wrote:
1. No, I can deal with them just fine because I'm not fighting my input system, and that wasn't even the point. The point was anecdotal experience is meaningless. Just because you can aim fine with a controller doesn't mean everyone else is just as good/bad/average at it as you are.

Which goes to my point of claiming that the input system is the issue is asinine. It's typical Blizzard fanboy logic.

2. Whoa whoa, we were talking about Parah as a whole here. But for turrets, what if she can't get LoS? or torbi simply smacks it with his hammer a few times to keep it up? Or, what if because it's harder to aim on console you miss more shots. And, even if Parah kills the turret, torbi can get another up pretty quickly. You know what, scratch that this has nothing to do with the problem of torbi, any hero can kill his turrets with varying degrees of success depending on the conditions.

If Torbjorn is on the turret hitting it with his hammer to keep it up; he's within splash damage range.

3. Again, you can keep claiming that but his winrate is lower on PC because aiming quickly is a thing. Also, glad you finally understand what I'm getting at. With an inferior control scheme/input method, Torbi is pretty strong because aiming is harder on a console that it is on PC. If KB&M were options for consoles then I think Torbi's win rate would be lower.

I'm not the one making claims about keyboard and mouse being the reason for his lower winrate(10 whole percent, ooh and ahhh). Really not sure where you're getting that crap from.

PS: KB&M are options for consoles. I can run them on my XB1.

You keep saying the KB&M argument is bad, but I've yet to see you give some proof or reasons as to why it is. Removing one of the hardest things on console (aiming/reacting quickly in a fast paced shooter) is why he's so strong.

If the KB&M argument had weight, Torbjorn's win ratio on PC would not be the 60% you posted.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
1. No, I can deal with them just fine because I'm not fighting my input system, and that wasn't even the point. The point was anecdotal experience is meaningless. Just because you can aim fine with a controller doesn't mean everyone else is just as good/bad/average at it as you are.

Which goes to my point of claiming that the input system is the issue is asinine. It's typical Blizzard fanboy logic.

2. Whoa whoa, we were talking about Parah as a whole here. But for turrets, what if she can't get LoS? or torbi simply smacks it with his hammer a few times to keep it up? Or, what if because it's harder to aim on console you miss more shots. And, even if Parah kills the turret, torbi can get another up pretty quickly. You know what, scratch that this has nothing to do with the problem of torbi, any hero can kill his turrets with varying degrees of success depending on the conditions.

If Torbjorn is on the turret hitting it with his hammer to keep it up; he's within splash damage range.

3. Again, you can keep claiming that but his winrate is lower on PC because aiming quickly is a thing. Also, glad you finally understand what I'm getting at. With an inferior control scheme/input method, Torbi is pretty strong because aiming is harder on a console that it is on PC. If KB&M were options for consoles then I think Torbi's win rate would be lower.

I'm not the one making claims about keyboard and mouse being the reason for his lower winrate(10 whole percent, ooh and ahhh). Really not sure where you're getting that crap from.

PS: KB&M are options for consoles. I can run them on my XB1.

You keep saying the KB&M argument is bad, but I've yet to see you give some proof or reasons as to why it is. Removing one of the hardest things on console (aiming/reacting quickly in a fast paced shooter) is why he's so strong.

If the KB&M argument had weight, Torbjorn's win ratio on PC would not be the 60% you posted.

1. Uhhhh, no. What I said was "because I'm not fighting my input system, I can aim better". The only real difference between overwatch on PC and consoles is the input system. Therefore, the problem is probably the input system leading to torbi being so strong. Why do you assume this is somehow supporting you? Let me make it clear: Because I'm not using a gak input method, I can aim better as can everyone else using the same input method, meaning the auto aim torbie's turret has contributes less. AKA one of the major factors of torbie being OP is due to his auto aim while players are using an inferior input system.

2. Not if he's moving in and out of range. Not if he's around a corner.

3. I got figures from http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/pc/global which is one of the things Blizzard tracks. And 10% is a lot, maybe you don't realize it, but the spread is 20% closer to Blizzard's ideal 50% win rate. You are however still claiming that the vastly inferior input system (aka, making it harder to play) has NO factor AT ALL in this, even when you then say exactly something to support my side:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The reasons Torbjorn gets stacked is:
A) He's super effective, with little to no input from the player.

(Little to no input? You mean, like, you don't have to aim with him which is much harder with a controller than a KB&M? Whoa.)

And KB&M are not options, most games (iirc) don't support KB&M, and even if they did on console, you're still going to have people using controllers over KB&M because they don't want to buy a KB&M for one game. I know Blizzard said they don't want KB&M support for overwatch on consoles because it'd give an unfair advantage over those who weren't using KB&M

4. Uhhh, yes, it would be. Faster aiming means better reaction times, which means more near saves than near deaths. Also, notice how it's LOWER on PC than the ~70% that both consoles have? Torbi might still be too strong and get a nerf on PC, but it won't be on the scale of consoles (30% is a pretty huge hit).

Yeah, at this point....
Not interested in discussing anything with you. Have fun with your KB/M.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, at this point....
Not interested in discussing anything with you. Have fun with your KB/M.

I will, I'll also deal with torbis quickly and effectively, and not have to deal with a 6 man stack of torbi.

(I also won't hold my breath as to why you think controllers = KB&M)

 Kanluwen wrote:
IIf the KB&M argument had weight, Torbjorn's win ratio on PC would not be the 60% you posted.

This isn't really sound reasoning. That Torb has win ratio X on PC doesn't really say anything one way or another about the input device issue. What is important is how the win rates contrast with one another. His win rate is 59.89% on PC. His win rate on PS4 is 69.1%, his win rate on XBOX1 is 68.6%. Averaged his win rate on consoles is 68.85%. This is a difference of 8.96% which is huge by any standard. So it's probably safe to say that there is some substantive difference between PCs and Consoles that accounts for that difference. Torb might win a lot of PCs, but by a huge margin he wins even more on Consoles. The only substantive difference between the platforms I can readily think of is in the input devices used.

 Chongara wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
IIf the KB&M argument had weight, Torbjorn's win ratio on PC would not be the 60% you posted.

This isn't really sound reasoning. That Torb has win ratio X on PC doesn't really say anything one way or another about the input device issue. What is important is how the win rates contrast with one another. His win rate is 59.89% on PC. His win rate on PS4 is 69.1%, his win rate on XBOX1 is 68.6%. Averaged his win rate on consoles is 68.85%. This is a difference of 8.96% which is huge by any standard. So it's probably safe to say that there is some substantive difference between PCs and Consoles that accounts for that difference. Torb might win a lot of PCs, but by a huge margin he wins even more on Consoles. The only substantive difference between the platforms I can readily think of is in the input devices used.

Well, you also have to factor in the "style" of player that games like this attracts on consoles.

I've noticed, personally, that Torbjorn tends to attract the players who have tagged themselves under "Pro" when you look at their gamertags on XB1.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
IIf the KB&M argument had weight, Torbjorn's win ratio on PC would not be the 60% you posted.

This isn't really sound reasoning. That Torb has win ratio X on PC doesn't really say anything one way or another about the input device issue. What is important is how the win rates contrast with one another. His win rate is 59.89% on PC. His win rate on PS4 is 69.1%, his win rate on XBOX1 is 68.6%. Averaged his win rate on consoles is 68.85%. This is a difference of 8.96% which is huge by any standard. So it's probably safe to say that there is some substantive difference between PCs and Consoles that accounts for that difference. Torb might win a lot of PCs, but by a huge margin he wins even more on Consoles. The only substantive difference between the platforms I can readily think of is in the input devices used.

Well, you also have to factor in the "style" of player that games like this attracts on consoles.

I've noticed, personally, that Torbjorn tends to attract the players who have tagged themselves under "Pro" when you look at their gamertags on XB1.

Maybe. However, something like that just isn't big enough to account for a massive swing like 8.96% that really points at something much more fundamental in the platform. The input devices might not be night and day but turning is somewhat slower, popping around corners to use high damage damage shots like sniper shots and rockets is a big part of countering him. That is something that will be harder on a controller maybe not a ton, but probably enough. You just can't account for an 9% win difference with simple player habits, it's way way way too huge.

The control differences are the reason why Widowmaker was nerfed on PC but kept her damage potential on consoles.

I mostly try to use range to my advantage, when dealing with turrets (PC). Still rather obnoxious on few maps as you can't deal with them without proper coordination and response from the team. I'd take Torbjorn stacking instead of Genji/Winston diving on my behind or people on my team playing two Hanzos when enemy team is running two Pharah.

In other same old news, I and matchmaking don't get along. :(

Fun facts about Torbi!

One: His turret has a limited range- only about 40 meters or so. So Pharah or Widowmaker or Hanzo or even Bastion (I think?) can take the turrets out from complete safety if far enough away.

Two: I think he's short enough that on Defense point B in Hanamura, he can 'hide' on the point behind the stairs and not be seen from out the door if he crouches. Might be wrong about that. But he's short, so who knows.

Three: He's the closest thing to a "healer' in the Defensive slot- his Armour packs are essentially giving out health packs.

Four: He's actually really effective as a run'n'gun character- his blaster does a ton of damage in either mode, and the drop allows you to do neat indirect-fire things.



The Overlly Defensive Brawl has gotten me really into him, but I play him super-agressively, mostly using the Level 1 turrets as distraction, extra DpS and warning, just plonking them down whenever/wherever. Armour works sorta like Reapers soul-globes to help keep me in the fight as well.

Torby's useful, but not godlike on PC. I've fought 6 or 4 stacks of him, and gotten through just because the team then has some explosives users, and a Reinhart or DVA to tank a few seconds while the turrets are dismantled.

As for playercomp, most characters are usually useful. S76, Reinhart, all the healers, Roadhog, Pharah.. etc.

A few, you really only need one, or are on certain maps. Snipers if you have more than one are pretty bad. Same with flankers (multiple tracers, tracer+genji, etc). As are some turret chars on types of attack maps.

Two tanks, two support, two DPS is my preferred team comp.

I've lost games thanks to two very coordinated Genjis. They knew exactly when to dive, bait and when to disengage. I'm actually expecting a nerf to Genji, because in the right hands he's just pure murder machine.