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 General Annoyance wrote:
My friend plays Orisa. He's doing extremely well at the moment, apart from some weird positioning on his part.

Well yeah you get gold damage basically every match by just spamming down choke points and onto Reinhardt's shield, but that is not necessarily very useful damage.

From my experience Orisa is pretty damn great.

I was going to write a big rant about this, but instead, I am going to let Blainie, the grand master player who writes the guides on Icy Veins, explain.

Blainie wrote:Orisa is rarely picked at the moment, mainly due to her complete lack of filling a defined role. Currently, tanks fill one of two roles (other than Reinhardt, who fills his own role since nobody can rival his position on the majority of maps) — they can either protect the backline, or they sit on the frontline. Winston and D.Va can both harass the enemy incredibly well, diving deep to ensure that priority targets are killed quickly and efficiently. Zarya and Roadhog both can sit behind a Reinhardt and make sure flankers are dealt with quickly, either by shielding supports (Zarya) or eliminating them with a quick combo (Roadhog).

Orisa is in the unfortunate place currently where she is essentially just a slightly worse Reinhardt. She cannot play in any kind of aggressive team, let alone any form of dive comp. She cannot protect her supports properly because she is countered by flankers herself. This means that Orisa simply serves as the Reinhardt helper, allowing him to just recharge his shield. The unfortunate reality of this, however, is that you already have this available with Mei and Symmetra, both of whom can have a much larger impact on the game.

Heck even d.va does rein helper better while still being a flex pick.

Orisa's interesting, because she's the only Tank that can also shoot at range.

She's a backline tank with frontline effect. None of her abilities require her to be at the front, but all of them can affect the front- her shield is fired, her orb is fired, and she has a ranged weapon that you can fire-for-effect.

Her high health and armour is a bit of a mis-direction. It's not there to let her tank shots and be a target, it's there to let her survive without inconveniencing the other backline folks. She's a bookend- both the foremost and rearmost.

There isn't really any bad characters... just characters that most people are bad with... i.e. Orisa, Hanzo, Genji

I am TERRIBLE at Hanzo, this is very true. It's why I main Mercy, the heal stick doesn't require precise aim.

Ashiraya wrote:Well yeah you get gold damage basically every match by just spamming down choke points and onto Reinhardt's shield, but that is not necessarily very useful damage.

Nah, I still hold onto Gold Damage most of the time, but point taken; however, I would say that among her useful damage, firing after using Halt is one of the nastiest combos in the game outside of Roadhog's Hook/Left Click.

I was going to write a big rant about this, but instead, I am going to let Blainie, the grand master player who writes the guides on Icy Veins, explain.

Blainie wrote:Orisa is rarely picked at the moment, mainly due to her complete lack of filling a defined role. Currently, tanks fill one of two roles (other than Reinhardt, who fills his own role since nobody can rival his position on the majority of maps) — they can either protect the backline, or they sit on the frontline. Winston and D.Va can both harass the enemy incredibly well, diving deep to ensure that priority targets are killed quickly and efficiently. Zarya and Roadhog both can sit behind a Reinhardt and make sure flankers are dealt with quickly, either by shielding supports (Zarya) or eliminating them with a quick combo (Roadhog).

Orisa is in the unfortunate place currently where she is essentially just a slightly worse Reinhardt. She cannot play in any kind of aggressive team, let alone any form of dive comp. She cannot protect her supports properly because she is countered by flankers herself. This means that Orisa simply serves as the Reinhardt helper, allowing him to just recharge his shield. The unfortunate reality of this, however, is that you already have this available with Mei and Symmetra, both of whom can have a much larger impact on the game.

Good food for thought. However, I do notice a lack of mention of Halt; having access to a mini Graviton Surge is an ability that is often overlooked for how powerful it can be in combo with other tanks.

I mean he's not wrong; Orisa is very vulnerable to flanking, and there is no way that she can compare to Reinhardt. Perhaps the success we've had with Orisa has been because I am able to go after flankers with D.Va and cover her with DM when she gets in a tight spot. In return, she brings the enemy team all in one place for me to hit with my Fusion Cannons, while also giving me supporting fire when I charge in.

GodDamUser wrote:There isn't really any bad characters... just characters that most people are bad with... i.e. Orisa, Hanzo, Genji

I feel like this is pretty accurate, although there are a couple of characters who need a little love, such as Reaper.

No character is unplayable, but some require that you up your game more than should be necessary for them because of a power gap, and that needs to be addressed.

There aren't bad characters, just characters whose strengths are difficult to use effectively like Sombra (requires a lot of coordination and game sense) or Tracer (requires a lot of mechanical skill), and characters who need the team comp to build around them and/or the team members to play around them to be effective like Bastion (can be used, but needs support) and Symmetra (not uselful in many team comps). And yes, some heroes need you to up your game because of imbalances (Reaper, Orisa).

Speaking of balance, Reaper and Roadhog step on each other's toes a lot in terms of role, as do Soldier and McCree. I wish they were distinguished better.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
There aren't bad characters

some heroes need you to up your game because of imbalances (Reaper, Orisa).

Haha what.

Reaper requires an odd combination of patience and followthrough. Don't show yourself early (let people forget you're there) and work that positioning so you can get close enough that your shotguns can finish enemies off quickly- but also be willing to dive after a running/low health Support or Tank, using your Wraith form to escape.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Haha what.

That's a nice and mature counter argument....


Overwatch is currently in its best state of in game balance; there's still a long way to go for a couple of characters, Reaper being the primary source of neglect at the moment. Even then, he still has his uses, and I still see plenty of people who play him, and excel.

I think even if Overwatch becomes a perfectly balanced game, there is still going to be neglected characters, because people have the mentality in Overwatch that they should be able to main their character in any situation against any comp, and if they can't, that character is unplayable.

You have two choices in that case - be better than anyone else with that character, or switch to something more appropriate to make up for the skill gap, either in the character itself, or between you and the enemy team.

 General Annoyance wrote:
That's a nice and mature counter argument...

What do you expect me to say? He says 'No characters are bad' and then immediately admits that Orisa and Reaper are significantly weaker than the rest. :S

Is this some game of semantics where we are beating around the bush, desperately trying to avoid saying that any hero in Overwatch is bad?

There's a difference between bad and having significant weakness.

I'm not personally going to object to the fact that Overwatch has quite a few problems when it comes to internal balance, because I'd be lying if I said it was on a level of great balance. Reaper's the primary example of this; Orisa's position is debatable - just because a Grandmaster player said she isn't really meta doesn't suddenly make her a terrible choice. Equally, there are important things that need to be addressed when it comes to Orisa, such as her critbox and perhaps even her cooldown times on both her Ultimate (which charges really slow) and her basic abilities (Halt and Fortify; Protective Barrier is fine where it is really).

She's hardly unplayable - players just need to step up to the mark a bit more, perhaps more than they should be doing. However it is good to bear in mind here that quite a few characters have deliberate skill gaps, either mechanically or in terms of precision. Whether Orisa and Reaper are meant to have that like Widowmaker and McCree do is down to your viewpoint on the situation at this point. I personally think the problems with Reaper, and Orisa's cooldowns, are things that needs to be addressed, for what it's worth.

 General Annoyance wrote:
There's a difference between bad and having significant weakness.

I'm not personally going to object to the fact that Overwatch has quite a few problems when it comes to internal balance, because I'd be lying if I said it was on a level of great balance. Reaper's the primary example of this; Orisa's position is debatable - just because a Grandmaster player said she isn't really meta doesn't suddenly make her a terrible choice. Equally, there are important things that need to be addressed when it comes to Orisa, such as her critbox and perhaps even her cooldown times on both her Ultimate (which charges really slow) and her basic abilities (Halt and Fortify; Protective Barrier is fine where it is really).

She's hardly unplayable - players just need to step up to the mark a bit more, perhaps more than they should be doing. However it is good to bear in mind here that quite a few characters have deliberate skill gaps, either mechanically or in terms of precision. Whether Orisa and Reaper are meant to have that like Widowmaker and McCree do is down to your viewpoint on the situation at this point. I personally think the problems with Reaper, and Orisa's cooldowns, are things that needs to be addressed, for what it's worth.

I mean, if I am not supposed to listen to a grandmaster player, why should I listen to you? Are you top 500 or something?

GM players tend to know their game because, you know, if they didn't they wouldn't be GM.

But go on, what is the difference between being bad and having significant weakness? You say there is a difference, then go on to mention a few of the reasons Orisa is bad, and... Why does that make her not bad?

If you think the whole game acts in the same way as Grandmaster tier, then you most certainly haven't reached Grandmaster or have tried to get close. That or you are in Grandmaster and you have been there for so long that you have no idea how the rest of the Competitive Ladder is playing their games.

The meta argument does not work outside of Grandmaster/Top 500, because at every other tier the skill gap between players is more likely to determine the outcome of the match rather than meta picks. At Grandmaster +, levels of skill between players are going to very tight, so meta picks start to play a huge part in the game. Luckily the meta has broadened over the Seasons, but there are still plenty of gaps where heroes don't seem very viable at all.

Even then, I've seen quite a few pro players playing characters who are considered off meta, Sombra being the biggest one.

Bad in your eyes means they are unplayable, or objectively inferior to another pick; I could list something "bad" for quite a few heroes in the roster, but that doesn't make them a poor choice. A significant weakness is something that I believe needs to be addressed, but not something that renders the character useless. That's the difference.

Bad in your eyes means they are unplayable

Go ahead. Quote where I have said they are unplayable or useless.

They are playable. They are just bad. Claiming things are entirely different outside of GM ranks is false (even a mediocre Genji or Tracer completely shreds Orisa and that will only increase as the players get bettter).

Admitting the problem is step one of fixing it.

objectively inferior to another pick

As far as I can tell, Blainie's point that Orisa is just a worse Reinhardt seems about right and I have seen nothing that would tell me otherwise.

'B-but I have seen Orisa kick ass!'

Yeah I have seen that too... And many times more often I see Reinhardts on rampage shredding the enemy team, while also doing the job of, you know, tanking better than Orisa can because her shield is small and immobile.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Go ahead. Quote where I have said they are unplayable or useless.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I visit the forums for an explanation and it turns out Orisa is really bad. Not only that, Blizzard decides to nerf her. What on earth.

Looks like I am going on another break. I guess I return when she is buffed... assuming she is not made fotm. *Peers at Ana*

Sounded to me like she's unplayable for you, since you're not coming back to the game until she's been buffed. I'm sure you'll deny the meaning of that, but that's what I got from it.

Claiming things are entirely different outside of GM ranks is false

It's not; people like to think they're good enough that meta applies to them, but really your skill in the tiers lower than GM is what matters far more than if your character is in meta or not; as long as your comp is balanced/organised, you only really have yourself to blame if things go wrong, and if you insist on keeping with that character if you're simply being hard countered.

(even a mediocre Genji or Tracer completely shreds Orisa and that will only increase as the players get better).

Not true. They'll have the objective advantage as a counter character, but Overwatch is hardly a game of rock paper scissors.

Admitting the problem is step one of fixing it.

Again, not denying that Orisa needs some tweaking to bring her back in line. Honestly a critbox reduction similar to Winston's reduction would be a pretty good start.

As far as I can tell, Blainie's point that Orisa is just a worse Reinhardt seems about right and I have seen nothing that would tell me otherwise.

Apart from the fact that she puts out far more damage than Reinhardt. This line of argument is practically the same as labelling D.Va as just a worse version of Reinhardt.

Yeah I have seen that too... And many times more often I see Reinhardts on rampage shredding the enemy team, while also doing the job of, you know, tanking better than Orisa can because her shield is small and immobile.

I haven't really seen that, but then again, I've done a lot of practice to ensure I can shutdown Reinhardts quickly, since every second they're alive is a big problem when I play D.Va.

I don't think Orisa was ever meant to be a better anchor Tank than Reinhardt; he will always be the definitive anchor Tank, and I'm willing to put money on that never changing. Orisa can be best described as a weaker anchor, but with much better damage output and crowd control abilities (outside of Earthshatter, of course).

Does she need work? Yes, as I've suggested before. I don't think it's fair to call her a weaker Reinhardt though

 General Annoyance wrote:


Sounded to me like she's unplayable for you, since you're not coming back to the game until she's been buffed. I'm sure you'll deny the meaning of that, but that's what I got from it.

She is so weak she isn't very fun to play. You can infer what you want from that but that is all there is to it.

I've had my POTG rampages on her and they are fun when they happen but it's too easy for most heroes to delete her. She does not feel rewarding enough.

Not true. They'll have the objective advantage as a counter character, but Overwatch is hardly a game of rock paper scissors.

And gretchin can kill avatars in overwatch too. I've seen it happen. I am trying to be realistic here. As Orisa, if I am killing a genji 1v1 then that is because that genji ing sucks. Which also is why your 'but it's GM' argument is bonkers. You should balance the game around the players being of equal skill. The fact that in QM they often aren't is no reason to not do it.

Apart from the fact that she puts out far more damage than Reinhardt

But not useful damage. Her shot travel time means she cannot reliably focus down targets, and she's mostly dumping shots into turrets and barriers. At least Dva has her diver role she excels at.

 Ashiraya wrote:
She is so weak she isn't very fun to play. You can infer what you want from that but that is all there is to it.

Well, fair enough, to an extent. I think she becomes too weak when her abilities are all on cooldown, especially so without Fortify. A change to her cooldown times or her critbox would be a good step in fixing a lot of issues she has when she has to go face to face with other heroes.

I've had my POTG rampages on her and they are fun when they happen but it's too easy for most heroes to delete her. She does not feel rewarding enough.

I feel like you could say this about a lot of heroes though; McCree's a good example, as is Winston. Doesn't stop those heroes from being absolute punishers a lot of the time.

And gretchin can kill avatars in overwatch too. I've seen it happen. I am trying to be realistic here. As Orisa, if I am killing a genji 1v1 then that is because that genji ing sucks

Or you're better than that Genji. Do you really think that you climb the competitive ladder just because you've picked the right character for the scenario, or you drop down because they've countered you?

Which also is why your 'but it's GM' argument is bonkers. You should balance the game around the players being of equal skill. The fact that in QM they often aren't is no reason to not do it.

I think the fact that you think that everyone in each tier will be of equal skill is bonkers. Everyone may as well be playing in Grandmaster if that was the case, since the deciding factor of games where everyone is equally skilled would just be your composition, much like it is a lot of the time in GM because the skill gap between most players is fractional.

Think of it this way - people who have the skill to be at the top of the ladder still have to climb the ladder, and that means fighting people in the lower ranks, some of whom may also deserve to move up, and some who fit best in that bracket. That's how competitive play works, and always will, because naturally you have to start from somewhere, and not everyone belongs where they are. This goes both ways, by the way, as some people might do really well in their placements and end up in Diamond, before being kicked out of Diamond because they don't actually have the skill to stay in that bracket.

However, once people reach Grandmaster rank, and place firmly within the tier, there isn't much to separate them skill wise as there is in the lower levels; there's no new tier to move up to other than Top 500 (which you can actually be in regardless of your tier, and also is such an exclusive club of players even for GM players), so there isn't much that players can separate themselves by as they are all very good players playing at the top of their league

No, the game should be balanced more internally to reflect how each character should operate, as well as putting them in a place where they cannot be objectively worse in most scenarios than another character. Balancing them based on how players will apply their own skill to them will not work.

But not useful damage. Her shot travel time means she cannot reliably focus down targets, and she's mostly dumping shots into turrets and barriers. At least Dva has her diver role she excels at.

Lead your shots more then?

If there's a barrier problem, you can always use Halt to move a pesky Reinhardt out the way, or get your teammates to move him for you. There are a few ways in which Orisa can be combined with other heroes; I strongly recommend getting a friend who's good with D.Va to play with you, as that combination has worked really well with my friend and I as we iron out each other's weaknesses. I think the problem is that Orisa doesn't combine incredibly well with Reinhardt, or even the other 3 tanks to a certain degree, hence why we see a lot of people complaining. I honestly don't know what to do about that - I think Blizzard just need to revise her cooldowns on Fortify and Halt as well as reducing her critbox, as she is on D.Va levels of critbox size/placement.

You found another friend General?
*Sad Mercy*

it's okay, Kit; you're still my #1 Mercy friend <3

I should probably get you a mug with that on it

You should.

I also really should have gotten the "why do I bother?" voiceline

I'm surprised you didn't

I was busy being bitter about my lootbox RNG. The one legendary item I got was coins

I didn't even get legendary coins...

I've been peer pressured into playing Heroes of the Storm. I finally got through to the point where I got my 10 Overwatch lootboxes.


The results of note from those 10 lootboxes? The Bastion 'woodbot' skin.

The results of note from playing the Uprising Event a few weeks back?

The Bastion uprising skin.

How often do I play Bastion?
Um... Since the Beta... Never.

I think the fact that you think that everyone in each tier will be of equal skill is bonkers.

They won't be, but it doesn't matter. It's what you should balance the heroes after anyway.

Lead your shots more then?

If they are moving that predictably the team's hanzo or WM or McCree will have killed them already.

 Compel wrote:

How often do I play Bastion?
Um... Since the Beta... Never.

I think I have almost all Genji skins and seasonal emotes/intros, with 0 hours playtime.

That's like me and Hanzo. I have so many items for him, and I have less than an hour of play time with him.

Went into a tourney match as a substitute player (Playing in a online tourney). Ended up carrying the game and get a D.VA team whipe.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They won't be, but it doesn't matter. It's what you should balance the heroes after anyway.

Except it isn't. Balancing a hero based on what a pro player says is not the way to properly balance a game; Blizzard certainly have work to do, but thank god they haven't gone down that route.

If they are moving that predictably the team's hanzo or WM or McCree will have killed them already.

Or you could just move closer so the projectile has less distance to travel...

Anyways, seems like the meat of the argument has concluded.

 Compel wrote:
I've been peer pressured into playing Heroes of the Storm. I finally got through to the point where I got my 10 Overwatch lootboxes.


The results of note from those 10 lootboxes? The Bastion 'woodbot' skin.

The results of note from playing the Uprising Event a few weeks back?

The Bastion uprising skin.

How often do I play Bastion?
Um... Since the Beta... Never.

Yeah, I have this problem too. However, I'm pretty glad Overwatch made me play HotS for loot, because honestly it's not bad at all. I even bought D.Va with the pile of gems they give you and have been having massive fun using her. Top marks for the fun you can have in HotS, although QP is a little baffling since you can't organise a comp before playing, meaning you often end up with no support heroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought I'd add this, directed at nobody in particular; we can debate till the sun goes down on hero balance, but this still has to be the biggest problem with Overwatch: