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Unfortunately, this thread was fracked the moment it came into existence. The OP states that he has commissioned a paint project from BTP and will document the process to show that BTP is the great studio he/she believes them to be. The problem then becomes that the results (and perceptions) will be flawed. BTP certainly reads these threads and so the level of service we will be seeing is (most likely) non standard, in that the project will be moved to the head of the queue and most likely given more attention that a project would normally be given. Good for the OP but not great for a non-partial review of BTP. Likewise, the reaction from the readers of this thread will also be skewered in that a)they agree with what I said above or b) they are already set in their idea that BTP is a terrible company and will nit pick every detail of this project. The OP would have done himself a favor and delayed submitting this review thread until after the project was over if he wanted the results to be fairly shown to the community. I also find it strange that a person living in Europe would have an army commissioned in the US when there are AMAZING studios throughout the region that are more affordable and better talented thatn BTP. Just my 2 cents

As far as I read, the OP said they hoped to document an average customer interaction with BTP, I don't think OP ever claimed BTP was great.

We all might have our own impressions of what the OP was trying to achieve; perhaps he was trying to prove BTP are great, perhaps he was trying to give BTP a fair trial instead of a witch hunt. Regardless, it is important we don't mix up our impressions of what the OP was trying to achieve and what he actually stated.

That quibble aside, you make a good criticism; there was a chance BTP would be watching this thread, which means they might be tempted to over serve OP for his money.

The idea that future reviewers should wait until their service is complete is a good one; hopefully the idea that such reviews might happen can only courage services to give their best for the money they are paid.

A quick look at postage costs you're looking at 70-110 quid for post to Poland, whereas 80-90 to USA so they're actually fairly equitable.

I don't think it is so strange that a person living in the UK would commission an army in the USA when they specifically want to review the service of a company based in the US .

From the sounds of it you do get good value from Euro companies.

Something you haven't mentioned; consider the mother tongue of the British is English, an attribute most Americans also have.

When you want to give exacting directions to a painting service you might be reassured you're speaking the same language. I admit this could be a little insulting/ignorant opinion for someone to hold. It's not my opinion and as far as I can tell many hobbyists/services have high standards of English. Regardless, I suspect common language is something many people would consider when looking to make a commission when looking at foreign countries.

nareik wrote:

A quick look at postage costs you're looking at 70-110 quid for post to Poland, whereas 80-90 to USA so they're actually fairly equitable.
.

I paid roughly 25 euros for the shipping to them and their shipping to me is 25$.

Ah fair enough, for some reason I misremembered you as being from the UK as well.... no doubt a compliment on your excellent English!

Your postage was way cheaper to US than it would have been from UK! Perhaps my quick and dirty search didn't find the cheapest UK options, though.

i think the real question here is did this thread change any ones minds about using blue table painting as painting miniatures service ? looks like from the posts that moff is the only one that would use them again and is apparently. alot of people have posted here and tenebrehttp://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/618082.page thread with there views/opinions Have Your Miniatures Painted By Us
"Blue Table Painting is the most prolific and notable Wargame Miniature painting studio in the world. We have blazed a trail in a previously untamed industry. We are a pioneer of the emerging miniatures painting industry, and have brought reliability and professionalism to a service that barely even existed eight years ago. BTP is able to take on projects large and small with unmatched reliability. We are the only studio in the world who can handle epic-level projects with a tight turnaround, professionally handled from start to finish." this is posted under the store page on there site if moff feels like this is the service he got and this statement is true then all thats left too say is enjoy your models .

 Azreal13 wrote:
~$800 IIRC.

Wow, well its a lot of money for a fairly average job, do they have a price list or something as id genuinely like to know how it cost 800 dollars.

Cypher is cool though, not a great paint job but it works

Page 1 original post there is a breakdown of finances.

OP more or less designed the paint jobs. BTP just did the actual brushwork.

 Formosa wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
~$800 IIRC.

Wow, well its a lot of money for a fairly average job, do they have a price list or something as id genuinely like to know how it cost 800 dollars.

Cypher is cool though, not a great paint job but it works

My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

 Absolutionis wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

Well seeing how shipping is 80 dollars one way to the Netherlands, and he said blue table painting was only charging him 30 dollars, we can assume at least a 50 dollar discount.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

Well seeing how shipping is 80 dollars one way to the Netherlands, and he said blue table painting was only charging him 30 dollars, we can assume at least a 50 dollar discount.

They have an excell document they send you with their quote, which you can change things around in (like the level of paintjob and your region of shipping). When changing that shipping region to europe their excell sheet pops up 25$. So I dont think that this is a discount specially for me, its more likely that they have some sort of deal with a certain postal service where they ship in bulk for cheaper I imagine. Oh and by the way, this thread was started AFTER the project had started, because initially I wanted to post the entire process after it was done. However I got pushed into it which I have stated more than enough by now. The thing is, when I first mentioned my project with BTP on Tenebre's thread, they had already quoted me (including the 25$ shipping).

Also @ Absolutions: I have not mentioned the blog to BTP and have not heard anything from BTP about it. They have not asked me to take it down or offered me any discounts.

Do you know who they are using for european shipping as if done right and they label the costs etc wont you get hit with a massive import tax?

Motograter wrote:
Do you know who they are using for european shipping as if done right and they label the costs etc wont you get hit with a massive import tax?

I do not know what company they use. However I made sure to check how importing services works here. And the answer customs gave me was that if I send things like miniatures to be painted then that classifies as services and they cant import tax services. With the new project I set up there might be problems, but for this project in particular I cannot be charged with import taxes.

That sounds alright if customs are to be believed. In the UK we have some companies that hold your stuff to ransom. You lot maybe lucky lol

 tenebre wrote:
for the same price or even a bit less the poland studios could do the same job and way better and it would save on shipping.

Since the OP is from Europe this makes no rational sense on any level. In the states, if the OP is dead set on paying more for shipping there are several other studios that can come close to this price for far better results.

Why would anyone go out of their way to use a service they self admit is not very good?

No rational person would. In other words, either the OP is the opposite or he has other stakes in BTP, a hidden motive for his white knighting, like being paid by BTP for false advertising or perhaps being a relative or something. Either way this thread could never be neutral and the OP's goal is not to present a neutral and normal transaction with BTP, it's soul purpose is to confuse and fool people into using BTP.

nareik wrote:
Winter, you make painting neatly sound so easy; genuinely making mistakes sounds almost inconceivable to you.

He's right, for example compare it to walking or writing. Sure at some point (early in your life) it was hard, you messed up, and you needed to concentrate on it do even something but after enough practice it becomes second nature and most people don't need to think about what they are doing while going somewhere or when writing a shopping list.

That's the skill level of painting we are talking about here (assuming the average painter has not disabilities that make the process hard/impossible), base-coats and simple highlights more or less following the miniatures' form/surface, not extreme freehand examples, tiny textures, or highly specific lighting scenarios. Anybody who paints a lot should get better with a little dedicated practice even while painting an army. I can't understand how they manage to not improve their work when they have so much to do, either their painters don't stay with the company for long or they actively sabotage their own work to some degree.

And with experience comes the second thing; when you do screw up, you know exactly what to do about it, meaning all evidence of said balls-up either disappears or is hidden.

For example the 'cracked' pattern on the titan I won a demon with. Yep, that was a mistake gone too far. Sometimes you just have to run with it. If the client had not requested it or not given me freedom with the scheme I would have had to put it right (which would have involved a minor repaint).

winterdyne wrote:
No; to do something like that (a solid black design) better takes no more time. (Unless they're *really* just bodging it, which given the half-arsed attempt at neatening it up I doubt.) It takes a touch more skill, the right mindset, and possibly a better brush. Mostly it's in the mind. If you're nervous and your hands are shaking because you're under the gun, then you'll feth it up.

I know you're a far better painter than me but really this doesn't make sense to me. It's not like I've never tried freehand before If I care about being precise (straighter lines, more accurate proportions), it will take me longer. If I go crazy and decide I want a really smooth finish of an airbrush, I will mask the area and spray it, which will take even longer again.

I think (and may be wrong) that you have in your mind a minimum standard, and you simply never paint below that. I think everyone kind of does, I would never paint an army as bad as my first army... but I can't deny that I threw that first army together faster than any army since.

My point, and what's aggravating me mostly is that if a job is to be done, it should be done properly, and should be quoted for to do the job properly.

This isn't even a good basic level of work. It's just fething messy. BTP are like an amateur carpet fitter trying to cut the carpet with a chainsaw 'cos it's faster. So what if they're cheap? (for the result, they're NOT).

But who defines what is "proper" and "basic"? The models function as wargaming pieces and will pass any minimum "models must be painted to play" rules that a club/FLGS/tournament might have.

There might be others out there who can paint better for the same or less. I'd love to see more actual comparisons with comparable services instead of just hearing that BTP looks crap.

If someone had posted in the P&M forums with these stating they're wanting to start a commission service, we'd all warn them off it for being gak. I'm not hypocritical enough to say something like this is in any way acceptable just because the studio churning it out has been established for a while.

And if someone posted in P&M doing that I'd warn them off as well... not because it's so crap that it hurts my eyes but rather for their own sake so they don't waste their time trying to earn slave wages. But then at the same time if you're already making money off painting those crap models (and often people who post for commissions in P&M ARE making money from their local communities) then more power to them.


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 tenebre wrote:
for the same price or even a bit less the poland studios could do the same job and way better and it would save on shipping.

Since the OP is from Europe this makes no rational sense on any level. In the states, if the OP is dead set on paying more for shipping there are several other studios that can come close to this price for far better results.

I think people need to stop saying "there are studios that do better" and actually start stating what those studios are with links to comparisons. If we're trying to warn people away from BTP and toward better painting services we need to spend more time stating what those painting services are instead of just stating they exist.

The shipping thing has already been discussed... he's getting pretty cheap rates on shipping. While it might sound suspect (and maybe it is) it's certainly not unheard of for a company to wrangle themselvs some cheap international shipping. On multiple occasions I've been shipped things from overseas to Australia (both from companies and from individuals) that ended up cheaper than it would cost me to ship something within the country.

If there are studios in Poland that will do a better job for less it's worth mentioning them, though at the same time it should be remembered that wages in Poland are far less so I would imagine that they should be cheaper. I don't think a US company should really try to compete with a Polish company on dollars per model for similar quality when you couldn't survive on a Polish wage. There's a reason The Witcher 2 cost less to make than most other AAA video game titles and it mostly comes down to the fact Polish wages are so much lower.

Look at J'santai Khan aka War Paint

http://www.facebook.com/WarPaintMiniatureStudios/

His prices are much less and quality is much better with a similar turn around time.

Blue Table Painting over charges and under delivers... There is a multitude of talented painters on this site alone.

Winterdyn is a great painter as is Spiraling Cadaver... Hell just go to the swap shop and you will see commission services that blow BTP's gak out of the water.

I am happy the OP is happy but I truly believe he cheated himself and wasted his hard earned money.. Good thing options are like a-holes everyone and some just smell like Dakka.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
No; to do something like that (a solid black design) better takes no more time. (Unless they're *really* just bodging it, which given the half-arsed attempt at neatening it up I doubt.) It takes a touch more skill, the right mindset, and possibly a better brush. Mostly it's in the mind. If you're nervous and your hands are shaking because you're under the gun, then you'll feth it up.

I know you're a far better painter than me but really this doesn't make sense to me. It's not like I've never tried freehand before If I care about being precise (straighter lines, more accurate proportions), it will take me longer. If I go crazy and decide I want a really smooth finish of an airbrush, I will mask the area and spray it, which will take even longer again.

I think (and may be wrong) that you have in your mind a minimum standard, and you simply never paint below that. I think everyone kind of does, I would never paint an army as bad as my first army... but I can't deny that I threw that first army together faster than any army since.

My point, and what's aggravating me mostly is that if a job is to be done, it should be done properly, and should be quoted for to do the job properly.

This isn't even a good basic level of work. It's just fething messy. BTP are like an amateur carpet fitter trying to cut the carpet with a chainsaw 'cos it's faster. So what if they're cheap? (for the result, they're NOT).

But who defines what is "proper" and "basic"? The models function as wargaming pieces and will pass any minimum "models must be painted to play" rules that a club/FLGS/tournament might have.

There might be others out there who can paint better for the same or less. I'd love to see more actual comparisons with comparable services instead of just hearing that BTP looks crap.

If someone had posted in the P&M forums with these stating they're wanting to start a commission service, we'd all warn them off it for being gak. I'm not hypocritical enough to say something like this is in any way acceptable just because the studio churning it out has been established for a while.

And if someone posted in P&M doing that I'd warn them off as well... not because it's so crap that it hurts my eyes but rather for their own sake so they don't waste their time trying to earn slave wages. But then at the same time if you're already making money off painting those crap models (and often people who post for commissions in P&M ARE making money from their local communities) then more power to them.


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 tenebre wrote:
for the same price or even a bit less the poland studios could do the same job and way better and it would save on shipping.

Since the OP is from Europe this makes no rational sense on any level. In the states, if the OP is dead set on paying more for shipping there are several other studios that can come close to this price for far better results.

I think people need to stop saying "there are studios that do better" and actually start stating what those studios are with links to comparisons. If we're trying to warn people away from BTP and toward better painting services we need to spend more time stating what those painting services are instead of just stating they exist.

The shipping thing has already been discussed... he's getting pretty cheap rates on shipping. While it might sound suspect (and maybe it is) it's certainly not unheard of for a company to wrangle themselvs some cheap international shipping. On multiple occasions I've been shipped things from overseas to Australia (both from companies and from individuals) that ended up cheaper than it would cost me to ship something within the country.

If there are studios in Poland that will do a better job for less it's worth mentioning them, though at the same time it should be remembered that wages in Poland are far less so I would imagine that they should be cheaper. I don't think a US company should really try to compete with a Polish company on dollars per model for similar quality when you couldn't survive on a Polish wage. There's a reason The Witcher 2 cost less to make than most other AAA video game titles and it mostly comes down to the fact Polish wages are so much lower.

Awaken realms is comparable polish company, money wise. They do tend to favor airbrushes a bit more than I like but they were the first that sprang to mind


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually doing some messing around if he did use awaken realms, he could of had characters at the top level and it would of been cheaper than blue table painting spanish fork utah

Frontline Gaming has comparable prices, turn arounds and better quality in the US.

RollinAllOnes in the US is slightly more but far better quality.

YWPA and Rothhand both out of Poland offer similar pricing with far better quality

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

My point, and what's aggravating me mostly is that if a job is to be done, it should be done properly, and should be quoted for to do the job properly.

This isn't even a good basic level of work. It's just fething messy. BTP are like an amateur carpet fitter trying to cut the carpet with a chainsaw 'cos it's faster. So what if they're cheap? (for the result, they're NOT).

But who defines what is "proper" and "basic"? The models function as wargaming pieces and will pass any minimum "models must be painted to play" rules that a club/FLGS/tournament might have.

There might be others out there who can paint better for the same or less. I'd love to see more actual comparisons with comparable services instead of just hearing that BTP looks crap.

I suppose in some ways that "basic" and "proper" can be subjective, but when you have a models that have areas of missing paint, primer/undercoat showing through, missed detail, and uncorrected brush slips, I think it's fare to say that those are basic things that were not completed. A properly painted miniature, quality and complexity of the paint job notwithstanding, shouldn't have any of those things.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

My point, and what's aggravating me mostly is that if a job is to be done, it should be done properly, and should be quoted for to do the job properly.

This isn't even a good basic level of work. It's just fething messy. BTP are like an amateur carpet fitter trying to cut the carpet with a chainsaw 'cos it's faster. So what if they're cheap? (for the result, they're NOT).

But who defines what is "proper" and "basic"? The models function as wargaming pieces and will pass any minimum "models must be painted to play" rules that a club/FLGS/tournament might have.

There might be others out there who can paint better for the same or less. I'd love to see more actual comparisons with comparable services instead of just hearing that BTP looks crap.

I suppose in some ways that "basic" and "proper" can be subjective, but when you have a models that have areas of missing paint, primer/undercoat showing through, missed detail, and uncorrected brush slips, I think it's fare to say that those are basic things that were not completed. A properly painted miniature, quality and complexity of the paint job notwithstanding, shouldn't have any of those things.

None of these issues are really unique to professional miniature painters though...

I do a good bit of work as an engineering consultant for a variety of industrial applications - one happens to get me into a lot of wood shops around the country. I can't help but be amazed at how much people will pay for what amounts to IKEA furniture - poorly assembled at that. At the same time, I also see traditional wood shops with honest to goodness joiners who wouldn't be lost if they had to spend a week working for Stickley.

What it really comes down to, after all the critical analysis is whether or not the customer is happy with what they get - and of course that the supplier actually fulfills their contract. It might not be up to snuff for me or you - but if the customer is happy, and BTP is providing what they said that would (and by that I don't mean a level of quality...I mean the specific quantities) then there really isn't much left to be said.

It isn't something that I would be satisfied with - either painting for myself, or paying someone to paint for me. However, it isn't me. I am not the customer they needed to please - only the curmudgeon who still has an appreciation for hand cut dovetails, silky smooth colors and true metallics. Not everyone's cup'o'tea - but then again, things would be rather boring if they were.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
None of these issues are really unique to professional miniature painters though...

I agree, but I don't think anyone here has made that claim nor would they disagree with that statement.

What it really comes down to, after all the critical analysis is whether or not the customer is happy with what they get - and of course that the supplier actually fulfills their contract. It might not be up to snuff for me or you - but if the customer is happy, and BTP is providing what they said that would (and by that I don't mean a level of quality...I mean the specific quantities) then there really isn't much left to be said.

No one is doubting that the customer isn't happy with the finished product considering he's stated multiple times that he is completely satisfied with the end result. Did BTP fulfill their end of the contract? Debatable, considering OP had multiple issues with the finished product that they ultimately offered to correct (which seems to be rather rare case according to the many, many people that have had issues with BTP in the past). However, that doesn't change the fact that the job was not done properly for all the reasons myself and others have listed: areas of missing paint, primer/undercoat showing through, missed detail, and uncorrected brush slips.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
None of these issues are really unique to professional miniature painters though...

I agree, but I don't think anyone here has made that claim nor would they disagree with that statement.

What it really comes down to, after all the critical analysis is whether or not the customer is happy with what they get - and of course that the supplier actually fulfills their contract. It might not be up to snuff for me or you - but if the customer is happy, and BTP is providing what they said that would (and by that I don't mean a level of quality...I mean the specific quantities) then there really isn't much left to be said.

No one is doubting that the customer isn't happy with the finished product considering he's stated multiple times that he is completely satisfied with the end result. Did BTP fulfill their end of the contract? Debatable, considering OP had multiple issues with the finished product that they ultimately offered to correct (which seems to be rather rare case according to the many, many people that have had issues with BTP in the past). However, that doesn't change the fact that the job was not done properly for all the reasons myself and others have listed: areas of missing paint, primer/undercoat showing through, missed detail, and uncorrected brush slips.

Very sloppy and poor work in other words. Zero pride in what they do.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I thought dry brushing came after dipping

I've always done dipping last for a couple of reasons - it can help to get rid of the 'powdery' look that heavy dry brushing creates, and also serves as a varnish to protect the paint job underneath. The gobbos attached below are an example of a simple basecoat, drybrush, dip paintjob. I'm in no way saying they stand up to pro jobs such as the ones winter and others would do, but for massed troops, it's a pretty quick way to get units on the table.



The fact that a spiv like me can turn out a unit of 40 gobbos in a few hours makes me wonder why folks use the low end painting services. I can understand if you want a special model or whatever done to a standard you can't achieve yourself, but it's really so easy and quick to use dip, that anyone can get half-decent results.

I'm surprised by how bad the paintjobs actually are; especially on a thread presumably BTP is aware of. I don't see what's Nurgly about Simpsons-hued skin even if it did have more than just one solid, poorly applied layer... but if the client is happy, then I guess that's the important part.

This really was a useful guide to what you can expect from BTP - best case scenario - so thank you to OP in providing a valuable review.

And that is an ideal 'basic' paintjob method. The unit shown is a bit slapdash on the eyes and teeth, and could have been a bit neater here and there, but it shows the method well enough.

 Eggs wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I thought dry brushing came after dipping

I've always done dipping last for a couple of reasons - it can help to get rid of the 'powdery' look that heavy dry brushing creates, and also serves as a varnish to protect the paint job underneath. The gobbos attached below are an example of a simple basecoat, drybrush, dip paintjob. I'm in no way saying they stand up to pro jobs such as the ones winter and others would do, but for massed troops, it's a pretty quick way to get units on the table.



The fact that a spiv like me can turn out a unit of 40 gobbos in a few hours makes me wonder why folks use the low end painting services. I can understand if you want a special model or whatever done to a standard you can't achieve yourself, but it's really so easy and quick to use dip, that anyone can get half-decent results.

Off topic: Damn dude, those look really nice. I don't like most dip jobs i've seen in person, but I would never guess those were dips from that pic. Very nice.

winterdyne wrote:
And with experience comes the second thing; when you do screw up, you know exactly what to do about it, meaning all evidence of said balls-up either disappears or is hidden.

For example the 'cracked' pattern on the titan I won a demon with. Yep, that was a mistake gone too far. Sometimes you just have to run with it. If the client had not requested it or not given me freedom with the scheme I would have had to put it right (which would have involved a minor repaint).

Not to derail this thread but I think I met you winterdyne at FW open day in 2013! Is your Titan the one with some nids and guardsman hanging out on the base? Was admiring you handiwork with some friends.

On topic I have been lurking on this and tenebre's thread. To the OP do you feel your instructions and communication led to getting a better end product? That was one of your points in tens thread that the instructions were not up to scratch and may have been one of the reasons for the complete mess ten ended up with.