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JinxDragon wrote: NightHowler,
My post was in direct reply to this:
You're reading the rule and missing the most important part. "a model upgraded to have a thunderwolf mount". Thunderwolf cavalry aren't upgraded. They come with it. This is an important distinction. - NightHowler
If the Rule is only applied when the Unit purchases the Wargear as an upgrade, the section in parathesis makes no sense as it addresses "Standard Wargear" and not purchased upgrades....
Then let's look at some examples of standard wargear. The iron priest comes with a thunderhammer. He's listed as S4. A dreadnought comes with a powerfist and he's listed as S6. A Thunderwolf comes with a thunderwolf mount, but strangely, he's listed as S5... This doesn't seem incongruous to you?
those weapons let you resolve attacks at x2 strength, and have no change on the models strength outside of the assault phase when they are making attacks with those weapons.
If the weapon confers a Strength bonus, the Strength of the weapon’s attacks is equal to that of the user after any such modifiers have been applied.
as the bonus to strength is only conferred during making attacks, they are not shown on the models profile as the modifier is not present at all times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 19:49:22
Gravmyr wrote: Does the iron priest or Dreadnought say the modifier is included?
No. And I'm saying that if it were, and their profiles were listed as S8 and S10, then any modifiers to that stat would use the multiple modifiers rule on S8 and S10, because those would be the characteristics listed in the profile.
JinxDragon wrote: NightHowler,
My post was in direct reply to this:
You're reading the rule and missing the most important part. "a model upgraded to have a thunderwolf mount". Thunderwolf cavalry aren't upgraded. They come with it. This is an important distinction. - NightHowler
If the Rule is only applied when the Unit purchases the Wargear as an upgrade, the section in parathesis makes no sense as it addresses "Standard Wargear" and not purchased upgrades....
Then let's look at some examples of standard wargear. The iron priest comes with a thunderhammer. He's listed as S4. A dreadnought comes with a powerfist and he's listed as S6. A Thunderwolf comes with a thunderwolf mount, but strangely, he's listed as S5... This doesn't seem incongruous to you?
those weapons let you resolve attacks at x2 strength, and have no change on the models strength outside of the assault phase when they are making attacks with those weapons.
How is that relevant?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 19:48:34
since the weapons only modify strength during a certain subphase of a game phase, and not all the time, they are not shown on the models profile.
a s4 model with a powerfist is s4, but their attacks are resolved at (4x2)=8 during the assault phase. as the wargear doesn't modify the models characteristics during other times, its not adjusted in their profile.
if a model is on a bike, it never has the option to not be on the bike, so the modifier for being on a bike will be included in the profile.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 19:51:31
JinxDragon wrote: NightHowler,
My post was in direct reply to this:
You're reading the rule and missing the most important part. "a model upgraded to have a thunderwolf mount". Thunderwolf cavalry aren't upgraded. They come with it. This is an important distinction. - NightHowler
If the Rule is only applied when the Unit purchases the Wargear as an upgrade, the section in parathesis makes no sense as it addresses "Standard Wargear" and not purchased upgrades....
Then let's look at some examples of standard wargear. The iron priest comes with a thunderhammer. He's listed as S4. A dreadnought comes with a powerfist and he's listed as S6. A Thunderwolf comes with a thunderwolf mount, but strangely, he's listed as S5... This doesn't seem incongruous to you?
those weapons let you resolve attacks at x2 strength, and have no change on the models strength outside of the assault phase when they are making attacks with those weapons.
If the weapon confers a Strength bonus, the Strength of the weapon’s attacks is equal to that of the user after any such modifiers have been applied.
as the bonus to strength is only conferred during making attacks, they are not shown on the models profile as the modifier is not present at all times.
And you don't see how this only supports what I'm saying?
It sounds like something that changes the strength permanently is different from a modifier like +1 or x2... but I won't go there because I don't want to get off track.
changing the strength all the time, is still a modifier. its not a change to the base value, and there are no rules for such a thing.
that some things modify strength always, because the model has no option to not use it, and some things modify strength sometimes, are not indicitive of them being different in how they modify things, ie one a modifier and the other not. They are solely indicitive that one is a item that you can use sometimes to modify a stat if you want, and another is an item the model is always using and modifies a stat even if you do not want it to.
given that bikes do the same thing as TWC in regards to "increase a stat by 1"
and are in the core rulebook, and this remains unadressed in the core rulebook as anything different than a modifier, or not a modifier.
Then its obvious that the only way to modify a models stats that we are given rules for, is the modifier system
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/12 19:54:11
The Rule being discussed is not found on Thunder Hammers or on Power Fists. It is, however, found on and specifically mentions Thunderwolves....
Why would any Rule only found on X, and specifically mentioning X, ever be applied to Y?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/12 19:57:01
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
JinxDragon wrote: The Rule being discussed is not found on Thunder Hammers or on Power Fists.
It is, however, found on and specifically mentions Thunderwolves....
Why would any Rule only found on X, and specifically mentioning X, ever be applied to Y?
I wasn't aware that the multiple modifier rule specifically mentions thunderwolf mounts. Does it specifically mention thunderwolf cavalry? Or thunderwolf mounts that might be taken by a wolf lord, wolf guard battle leader, or iron priest? Because for the first, the bonus is included in the profile. In the other three it is added as a modifier.
NightHowler wrote: The difference between the iron priest, the dreadnought, and the thunderwolf cavalry, is that one has his wargear already included in his profile and the first two do not.
I'm saying that this difference is critical in the way that we interpret the multiple modifiers rule.
The problem with your argument is that YOU are saying that this difference is critical.
However, the rules are not saying that this difference is critical.
Nighthowler - not offended, I'm pointing out that your "playfulness" is not apparent, and all it does is suggest your argument is so weak you have to insinuate bias in others, as you cannot critically refute their argument. And as so far you have NOT refuted any argument - as the rules clearly show a BONUS is included, meaning a MODIFIER is included, in the profile of TWC - all thats left is your attempt to pretend the arguemnt against is only born out of bias.
RAW S9 for both. The rules clearly and utterly refute your notion that the modified profile is somehow not modified by the standard wargear, and honestly, I really dont understand the postiion you are in - it is unsupportable. Same as the rules refuted the bizarre concept that "increase by 1" is different to "add 1" or "+1"
Yes they do. They are S4, modified to S5. As the rule for the mount - which they have as wargear, so the rule ABSOLUTELY applies to them - states they have been increased by 1
Do you agree that an increase of 1 to S is the same as +1S?
I'll bite.
Armoured Steed: Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile.
Note that that is an change to the base characteristic, essentially, setting it to a set value of the old value plus one, not a modifier. For support, see Furious Charge:
In a turn in which a model with this special rule charges into combat, it adds +1 to its Strength characteristic until the end of the Assault phase
Furious Charge is clearly a bonus modifier and (at least here) is explicitly a temporary change on top of that.
For another example of how a bonus modifier instead of a base (set to) change, look at a power axe.The Power Axe gives you a +1 to your strength (for attacks), not to your ability to pass a S characteristic test, etc.
By those RAW quotes and the Multiple Modifiers rule, we see that:
RAW S9 T5
RAI S9 T5 - the Lord isn't always on the wolf so it's not as natural for him to swing that way, but the basics of being on an armoured steed makes the "increase Toughness characteristic by 1" more than a +1T modifier.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Note that that is an change to the base characteristic, essentially, setting it to a set value of the old value plus one, not a modifier.
Where does it state it is a change to the base characteristic?
Where in the rulebook does it mention base characteristics and how changes to those are different to modifiers?
A model equipped with a Power fist can have a 2nd weapon. If that weapon is say, a power sword, then you can choose the weapon you want to strike with. If you want to strike at I 4, then use the Sword, if not, wait till I 1 to use the fist. If the Fist changed your Stat line then the sword that strikes at I 4, would hit at Str 8 also.....
The TWC wargear however makes the Power Sword and/ or Fist, hit 1 harder. Str 5 for the Sword, 9 for the Fist.
NightHowler... That you can admit the Wolf Lords are Str 9 with P fists is telling. You KNOW that the TWC are not stronger then their Lord. You know this. I understand you feel they should both be 10 but since you can see how the lord is only 9, maybe just maybe your feeling is wrong.
I agree RAW is S9, but I do feel its incredibly silly the ways its worked out.
I mean, people talk about base values but really if whats in a models profile is not the base or unmodified char what is? 4?8?0? who knows?
The profile should always contain unmodified or 'base' values. I wouldn't be surprised if this was FAQ'd to be 10, in case they meant the 'Increase' to actually increase the base (Which they probably think is the profile...) considering also they could have not 'included' anything in any profile and just a general rule to increase when they have X wargear means if they really did intend for the increase to fall under the modifier rule then they went a very long, illogical and inconsistent route about doing so.
Don't know where I'm going with this other than it really annoys me from a mechanics point of view.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/12 20:47:59
Yes they do. They are S4, modified to S5. As the rule for the mount - which they have as wargear, so the rule ABSOLUTELY applies to them - states they have been increased by 1
Do you agree that an increase of 1 to S is the same as +1S?
I'll bite.
Armoured Steed: Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile.
Note that that is an change to the base characteristic, essentially, setting it to a set value of the old value plus one, not a modifier. For support, see Furious Charge:
All modifiers are a change to the base characteristic.
But it in no way sets a value of the old value plus one. If it did Thunderhammers (on TWC) would strike at Str 5 because you multiply then apply set values.
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It is a modifier, as it falls under the rules for modifiers. It fits the definition of a modifier, so is one unless you can prove otehrwise. Nothing suggested you can prove otherwise
RAW they are T5, but if called upon to make a toughness test *on unmodified toughness* they would test at T4. After all, theyre not always on a TWM.
NightHowler,
The Rule you and I are discussing is this one:
(these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)
Why would a Rule informing us that the bonus granted by a Thunderwolf Mount is already included in the profile be applied to a Thunder Hammer?
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
No. And I'm saying that if it were, and their profiles were listed as S8 and S10, then any modifiers to that stat would use the multiple modifiers rule on S8 and S10, because those would be the characteristics listed in the profile.
We understand what you are saying but it doesn't so bringing them into the picture, when they only affect strength on an attack with the weapons, doesn't provide any support for your stance. In order for us to take them as separate from the rules for modifiers you would need to provide a rule that states so. Without that you are arguing intent. Most people, I believe, agree that is what they intended, S10. Unfortunately they write rules and then playtest them as they think they should be played. This doesn't help us outside of their company. Can you provide such a quote?
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
nvm on my post my brain didn't see the 8 other pages.... How do i delete a post?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/14 03:51:35
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
the biggest problem i see with this whole argument is that a powerfist doesn't modify anyone's profile at all, ever. It uses the model's strength value to determine the strength value of it's own profile.
Powerfist
Strength: User x2
AP: 2
User = 4+1
Modified, increased no one cares, it's going to be 5 and that's never going to be changed, it's going to stay 5, it doesn't get increased by the powerfist, the powerfist just uses it to determine the weapon's own profile.
in this instance Strength = 5x2 = 10
In the same sense that a plasma gun is Strength 7 but your model is Strength 5. It never makes your strength higher. You have a strength 5 model using a weapon with a higher strength characteristic than the model that is wielding it.
Krargan wrote: the biggest problem i see with this whole argument is that a powerfist doesn't modify anyone's profile at all, ever. It uses the model's strength value to determine the strength value of it's own profile.
Powerfist
Strength: User x2
AP: 2
User = 4+1
Modified, increased no one cares, it's going to be 5 and that's never going to be changed, it's going to stay 5, it doesn't get increased by the powerfist, the powerfist just uses it to determine the weapon's own profile.
in this instance Strength = 5x2 = 10
In the same sense that a plasma gun is Strength 7 but your model is Strength 5. It never makes your strength higher. You have a strength 5 model using a weapon with a higher strength characteristic than the model that is wielding it.
Stop being dumb.
I think before calling anyone dumb, you should instead read the applicable rule, which indicates the order modifiers are applied. Your way is simply wrong according to the rules.
Spoiler:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply
any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.
For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its
final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and
‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).
Coming from previous editions we've always assumed this new 'melee weapon' thing was just a fancy way to modify a model's characteristics. But thinking more on it, perhaps Krargan has it right. They don't modify a model's characteristics... they use the model's characteristic to determine the weapon's strength which is separate from the strength of the model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 15:58:39
Zimko wrote: Coming from previous editions we've always assumed this new 'melee weapon' thing was just a fancy way to modify a model's characteristics. But thinking more on it, perhaps Krargan has it right. They don't modify a model's characteristics... they use the model's characteristic to determine the weapon's strength which is separate from the strength of the model.
I take the user strength of 4, double it, then add the 1 from the TWC. Where's the confusion?
When you attack in melee, do you use the model's strength or the strength of his weapon?
The confusion is determining if weapons simply modify a model's strength or if you're supposed to use the weapon's strength (which is dependant on the model's strength but it does not modify the model's strength... it simply uses it to calculate the weapon's strength)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 16:05:40
Zimko wrote: When you attack in melee, do you use the model's strength or the strength of his weapon?
The confusion is determining if weapons simply modify a model's strength or if you're supposed to use the weapon's strength (which is dependant on the model's strength but it does not modify the model's strength... it simply uses it to calculate the weapon's strength)
What do the rules tell us to do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Krargan wrote: The confusion is with you doubling the user's strength for no reason.
What do the rules tell us to do?
Spoiler:
Strength
If the weapon’s Strength is ‘User’, then attacks made with that weapon are resolved at the wielder’s Strength value. If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of attacks made with that weapon. If a weapon has a D instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer weapon. For example, if an Imperial Guardsman (Strength 3) makes a shooting attack with a lasgun (Strength 3), his shots are resolved at Strength 3. If he shoots with a heavy bolter (Strength 5), his shots are resolved at Strength 5.
If the weapon confers a Strength bonus, the Strength of the weapon’s attacks is equal to that of the user after any such modifiers have been applied. For example, if an Imperial Guardsman (Strength 3) attacks with a weapon with Strength ×2, his attack is Strength 6 (3×2). If he attacks with a weapon with Strength +1, his attacks are Strength 4 (3+1).
Spoiler:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply
any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.
For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its
final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and
‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/24 16:11:01
I'm not sure what the rules say without my rulebook but I know where to look. Do we use a model's strength to fight in melee or do we use the weapon's strength?
If the weapon's strength, then when a weapon has a strength of 'user x2' then that weapon does NOT alter the model's strength. It uses the model's strength to calculate the weapon's profile. Thus the multiple modifier rule doesn't come into play.
Zimko wrote: I'm not sure what the rules say without my rulebook but I know where to look. Do we use a model's strength to fight in melee or do we use the weapon's strength?
If the weapon's strength, then when a weapon has a strength of 'user x2' then that weapon does NOT alter the model's strength. It uses the model's strength to calculate the weapon's profile. Thus the multiple modifier rule doesn't come into play.
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