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Well dang... Riff vs Harvesters would be awesome!

That was my question PsychoticStorm, what the box contents would be if choosing that... for instance, would the Riff come with Berserkers?

That doesn't get me to up my pledge just yet, but it certainly means I'm paying much closer attention!

 cincydooley wrote:
Holy mother of god. This is cool. Did they say what the contents will be for each one? I'm assuming it's a combat starter?

I would imagine that it would be: 1 'leader' character, 1 other character, 1 generic officer, 1 heavy weapon, 10 basic troops & 5 elite troops. The 5 'special' troops (like the Riff Berserkers) and 3 'large' troops (like the Ares Hyperion) would still have to be bought separately. The only exception to this would be the Ares, which only have 10 basic troops in the box set (and is presumably why starter sets including them are cheaper), because they are inherently more elite.

Edit - they actually did give an estimate:

We are still tinkering with it a bit, but you can expect something like the following:
Ares - Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Ares Troopers
Riffs - Fink, Sihlas, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Riff Troopers, Assault Troopers
Sayx - Tarko, Diane, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Sayx Troopers, Assault Troopers
Harvesters - Sphynx, Virus, Cybermasters, Necroslaves, Slave Warriors

-Double Edit - if you are planning on buying all the factions, definitely swap out Ares from the starter. It makes no difference if you get it as one of the $50 faction starters (still get 10 either way), and you get a variant Bitsie to lead them as a Kickstarter freebie anyway. You'll then be able to get 5 extra basic troops for a non-Ares faction for $15 rather than the normal $30.

So, no Berserkers in the Riff box (I guess they're in the standard box so I should have realized this). Who will Shlias Fenn hang out with then?

This one just got a LOT more AWESOME!

Creator SCALE GAMES LLC less than a minute ago

@Alpharius - You can pledge $225 to get one box with Ares vs Riff and one box with Sayx vs Harvesters.

Holy crap... But I still want all the factions...

 Artemis Black wrote:


No idea why it would cause production manager issues, all the minis are already funded/going to be produced. You just make up the core sets, read the order and drop in the two that the customer picked (There's a guy in the KS comments who's been getting some real stick for telling them that I think). Still, they did it so that's the important part.
.

Aside from them either having to make:

A - Multiple boxes for correct packaging, or
B - Making a single generic box.

Either way, neither is probably what they had planned for.

They were planning a 'backers only' core box sleeve (full box?) anyway, it seems like that would be an opportunity to just have all four factions on the 'backers only' sleeve.

If everyone switches to something that isn't Ares/Riff I'd imagine that the retail box might be changed up anyway.

Well the fact I have no money doesn't change but this change means I will be in it for sure and upgrade my pledge later when its possible.

YES FINALLY! This actually makes it easier to talk my friends into playing now. I was actually thinking they would go a different route by creating a new pledge, which gets you a 'customized core box'. It wouldn't be as much as a loss leader than Assault Trooper, but would be halfway between trying to start a complete new faction.... however I am good with this too. Well, we need to get to $85k, but as a stretch goal that is actually a great idea.

Ares vs. Riff (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Sayx (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Harvesters (33 miniatures)
Riffs vs. Sayx (38miniatures, +$15)
Riffs vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
Sayx vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)

We are still tinkering with it a bit, but you can expect something like the following:
Ares - Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Ares Troopers
Riffs - Fink, Sihlas, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Riff Troopers, Assault Troopers
Sayx - Tarko, Diane, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Sayx Troopers, Assault Troopers
Harvesters - Sphynx, Virus, Cybermasters, Necroslaves, Slave Warriors

Given the information, what we currently know about the forces and the break down of the boxes (after all they still want to sell boosters and vehicles) I am fairly certain the breakdown will be similar to below. These are supposed to be starters so I wouldn't expect other boosters because it could risk causing other issues or losing money, although with this change I'm certain it will definitely make their KS better. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the balance of the troopers to figure out which forces need more or less. This is all based on the initial core box, I'm assuming the Ares are the heavies and everything else is about on par (Harvesters given lore might be like Ares). So maybe a break down of something like this:

Ares vs Riff, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Sayx, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Harvesters, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs Sayx, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Sayx vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

There might be some alternations depending on stats of troops, for example Harvesters may include 5 Necroslaves + 10 Slave Warriors or Sayx could be 5 Troopers + 10 Assault troopers instead. Without actual stats, knowing more about the game it is hard to guess what would be a more balanced starter set but it should be the above, give or take here and there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Aside from them either having to make:
A - Multiple boxes for correct packaging, or
B - Making a single generic box.

Either way, neither is probably what they had planned for.

Not really. The Core Box is a KS Exclusive box anyways so it isn't a retail box and is designed only for this KS. The printing is being done in China and the miniature manufacturing done in Spain. I doubt they would send miniatures to China to box up, they will probably have the boxes sent in house and they will package them there. They are already going to have to put the items in the box to seal so they should already have a plan for that. They could outsource the packaging locally (someplace else doesn't make sense) so it really isn't something they have to worry about.

Historically KS have done this to a degree anyways. Set up an assembly line, move the box down and drop the items in. With the way they set up the packages (it isn't complete customization but it is WAY better than before), they could set up 6 rows and move through it fairly quickly.

According to the comments Alpharius your final pledge price is $275 to get the 2 box sets.

 Dark Severance wrote:
Not really. The Core Box is a KS Exclusive box anyways so it isn't a retail box and is designed only for this KS. The printing is being done in China and the miniature manufacturing done in Spain. I doubt they would send miniatures to China to box up, they will probably have the boxes sent in house and they will package them there. They are already going to have to put the items in the box to seal so they should already have a plan for that. They could outsource the packaging locally (someplace else doesn't make sense) so it really isn't something they have to worry about.

I mean, that doesn't really follow. They were planning on doing a KS exclusive cover. Not the full box. Typically the back of your box details the contents. If they're now allowing for customizable ones, it could change the KS exclusive box considerably, meaning more work, meaning more areas something can be screwed up, meaning it's easily something that could stress a PM out.

And that doesn't even consider that, if they do end up doing multiple boxes (6 of them for all possibilities), then that adds more QC work on the back end, where whomever is assembling the boxes has to ensure that the contents match the box. And while getting a package with the wrong back contents on it may not be a problem for you, or your friends, I think we're all realistic to understand that we're a part of a hobby where the demographic can assuredly be anal retentive and neckbeardy about things like that.

My point is that dismissing with a statement like this:

No idea why it would cause production manager issues,

Is ignorant of the process that a PM has to go through to launch a new product CORRECTLY.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
According to the comments Alpharius your final pledge price is $275 to get the 2 box sets.

That is correct. It would break down something like this:

Assault Trooper (Ares/Riff) with shipping to US, $105 + 25 = 130
Assault Trooper (Sayx/Harvesters) with shipping to US, $120 + 25 = 145
$145 + $130 = $275: 71 miniatures in total, $3.87 per miniature is a great value!

Are you guys talking about multiple users or is there a way to buy 2 boxes in one pledge?

Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .

I guess there isn't a shipping hub in the USA?

$50 for shipping would seem high otherwise...

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .

I know, but they're talking about buying 2 starter boxes, so unless I'm missing something that would require two users and two pledges. Would love to be able to do it with only 1 pledge.

 cincydooley wrote:
I mean, that doesn't really follow. They were planning on doing a KS exclusive cover. Not the full box. Typically the back of your box details the contents. If they're now allowing for customizable ones, it could change the KS exclusive box considerably, meaning more work, meaning more areas something can be screwed up, meaning it's easily something that could stress a PM out.

I am not saying it wouldn't stress a PM out, any and all KS stress PMs out completely even when someone else is doing manufacturing. I am a Project Manager for my company, granted its different than a production manager but both positions are stressful in terms of deadlines, changes and delivery.

It does make sense what you mean by the back of the box, since it is a different cover from the commercial version. It depends on what they mean by cover, we haven't seen a real box, just concept and mockups. The cover could simply just be a sleeve, it all depends on what they define as 'cover' since technically a sleeve is a cover The mockup shows an actual cover though so it most likely won't be a sleeve. But I have unfortunately been disappointed by a couple KS that did that for their box. Even at GenCon Upper Deck were selling a GenCon exclusive VS box and it was simply a sleeve on a 800 count card box.

It is also possible the reason for the $85k goal, lets them increase their printing or make suitable changes so they could get multiple multiple box designs done. They could still have the one KS Exclusive cover with multiple different backs, although that would be a nightmare. It would probably be easier to print a separate KS exclusive box, includes back and front cover and then don't' make modifications to their existing retail boxes. A lot depends on what they are showing on the back of the box. Ideally the back lists contents, but some boxes show images of contents on the side (top cover) and have more a generic story or description on the back. It isn't usually ideal but becoming more popular for shelving reasons at a LGS. There are a few options but given the stretch goal I would believe that is covering the extra costs.

I'm still trying to figure out how they are going to MSRP that for retail, given the KS cost, whats in the box, distribution and markup... but that is a different discussion. They could do what some companies have done and simply deal with it all in house through a web-store and not distribute through retail stores.

 cincydooley wrote:
And that doesn't even consider that, if they do end up doing multiple boxes (6 of them for all possibilities), then that adds more QC work on the back end, where whomever is assembling the boxes has to ensure that the contents match the box. And while getting a package with the wrong back contents on it may not be a problem for you, or your friends, I think we're all realistic to understand that we're a part of a hobby where the demographic can assuredly be anal retentive and neckbeardy about things like that.

I am quite sure that there will be some that do get the wrong contents. It has happened to quite a few KS. I missed stuff from Krosmaster, Relic Knights, and Khaosball. They either had something extra or was missing items. In the terms of Krosmaster I ended up with a Miniatures Case that I didn't even order, on the plus side I was told to keep it. Not an ideal situation but that is standard as part of the job whenever you have multiple add-ons. Customization of a core box is really just an extension of that to a degree. It does add extra work and labor hours but there are ways to mitigate it with a good team, assembly line and final check person before sealing the package.

I believe the benefits are definitely going to outweigh the headache and risks. I can agree with your point about the statement being misleading. It probably should at least read something more like, "It shouldn't cause a production manager, much more issues or stress, given an operation where there is multiple distribution, sorting, packaging, planning involved with a KS campaign". KS campaigns at times are dynamic, some try to make plans and have everything set out but a lot of them tend to start to fly by the seat of their pants as modifications through-out the campaign.

You add the total price to the one pledge. so Artemis for example in his one pledge would add $275 even though his pledges is only $130

Think I'm going to drop my pledge even though its great value for money to buy a boxset and just buy a bundle of heroes instead.

Mymearan wrote:

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .

I know, but they're talking about buying 2 starter boxes, so unless I'm missing something that would require two users and two pledges. Would love to be able to do it with only 1 pledge.

No, with one user you buy an assault pledge and raise it up to another assaul pledge. Later in the PM you choose dettails. 1 user 2 pledges (but two shippings)

@Dark - You and I are on the exact same page.

Completely agree that it makes a ton more sense to KISS in regards to the box, but thats another decision that needs to be made, and I know if I was told with only two weeks before the KS ended that there could be a change, I'd be a little stressed about the potential of that additional work and QC risk.

I think the "fly by the seat of their pants attitude" is actually what gets a lot of these projects in trouble. The more rigid ones and the ones with fewer options and a more focused goal almost ALWAYS deliver in a more efficient manner, in regards to both quality and timeliness.

I think i just get a little frustrated sometimes, being, like you, a PM (though I do a fair amount of new product management as well) when people don't understand how small changes really can create that ripple effect across a project plan.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .

It was already asked if someone wanted to purchase an 'Additional Pledge' they would be able to do this. It isn't unheard of in KS. You simply increase your pledge amount by the 'other pledge' cost and shipping and add it to your existing pledge. When the Pledge Manager comes out later you will then be able to choose how it is distributed. You are able to do this even without hitting the $85 goal.

As an example if you were already an Assault Trooper pledge but interested in adding in the Faction pledge, you would just go to "Manage Your Pledge" and increase your pledge by $185 + whatever shipping would be for your region and that pledge. The total pledge without shipping would be $290.

 Alpharius wrote:
I guess there isn't a shipping hub in the USA?

$50 for shipping would seem high otherwise...

I am not sure if they are shipping through a distribution center in the US. I would guess no but $25 for the amount of resin miniatures, boxing, seems about right given where it is coming from. You would be ordering twice the amount. However since I could potentially add a plethora of Add-ons and not have it not increase my shipping, I believe that is helping to offset that otherwise it will end up costing them more money in shipping. Even currently I am going to guess shipping will end up being at least $5k over their estimates.

From the FAQ:

All of the Kickstarter rewards will be shipped directly from our warehouses in Spain and USA, so all of our EU and USA backers will not have to pay import taxes.

Btw are you going to post more pics with the mobile brigada next to the terrain?

Yes but I was talking about the customisation was at 85k hence the extra $15 to change armies.

I am pretty sure its not the box that is the issue, but the planned miniatures production, its different to plan for a lot of Ares and Riff and another to plan for whatever the hell the pledgers choose after the kickstarter ends.

On one hand you have X and on the other hand the process fo calculating what you need to make starts way later, pushing much stuff back.

Yeah, I think shipping has caused a lot of Kickstarters a lot of problems!

Since I'm really NOT that interested in Harvsters, I'm not sure I want to go 'all in' with 2 box sets.

Getting 'everything' for all 4 factions (except vehicles) with a 2 box pledge now would cost me $620.

$100 EB Starter + $120 for the additional starter + (X) for all the boosters and heroes that aren't included + $50 shipping.

Take the Harvesters out completely, and it drops to $470.

For the price you are paying for the mini's surely the Postage isn't that bad. As Dark pointed out "71 miniatures in total, $3.87 per miniature is a great value!"

I'm quite happy with what's been previewed to date.

If the PM extends for some time, I'll be in for just about everything for Ares, Riff and Sayx!

If not, the starter box set will still be very nice!

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the "fly by the seat of their pants attitude" is actually what gets a lot of these projects in trouble. The more rigid ones and the ones with fewer options and a more focused goal almost ALWAYS deliver in a more efficient manner, in regards to both quality and timeliness.

It really does depend on the project. Using FF as an example, to some degree it makes sense to have a Core Box if you base the model of of existing companies. Even Infinity Operation: Icestorm is a great idea even if you aren't interested in Nomads or PanOceania. However it is much cheaper and easier to switch armies in Infinity than it would be in FF. There is a decent secondary market for Infinity that a person could still sell the items off or trade for existing armies. Even by purchasing Icestorm you aren't necessarily locked into those two factions entirely. Dark Vengeance is also another great value with the ability to trade or sell of existing models.

Looking at similar examples they probably assumed that is a good direction. It isn't completely a bad direction but there are a lot of unknowns to take into effect. There isn't an existing customer base, there isn't an existing secondary market yet and it's a complete unknown. To them though they probably thought our universe is centered around the Ares and Riffs conflict, with other factions on the side. They want to share that story with everyone and those in their minds are the most interesting. There are however a ton more gamers and all their views differ, so some might like them and others may prefer other factions. I don't believe they considered how many would want to change factions. They probably thought the answer was the Faction pledge but from marketing it is worse. If me and a friend want to get involved 2 Faction Pledges don't make sense when the Core Box is so much value in it but the unknown if we can offload the other miniatures, incorporate them, etc makes one or both less likely to jump in and wait until retail.

With Video Games and Software project management it is an even bigger nightmare. We design certain aspects believing this is how the end user should use it. It makes complete sense to us, QA and the test groups. Once something goes public and live there will always be one or a group of people who figure out some method to exploit or do something that the team didn't think people would do. Then we have to go make modifications to either prevent or enhance on what they are trying to do.

Now the ones that have absolutely no clue and literally change every time a backer makes a suggestion, yep those are the worst. I tend to not back or at least get a placeholder. Sometimes it just seems like they fly by the seat of the pants but have really have plans set in place, it just doesn't feel like to someone looking in from the outside.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Getting 'everything' for all 4 factions (except vehicles) with a 2 box pledge now would cost me $620.

$100 EB Starter + $120 for the additional starter + (X) for all the boosters and heroes that aren't included + $50 shipping.

Take the Harvesters out completely, and it drops to $470.

How are you getting the $470 or is that not including shipping? Not getting Harvesters I come up with the following options. I did this quickly so I might be missing something or adding something up wrong.

EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Trooper Pledge w/ shipping: $95
5 (7) Heroes Add-ons: $75
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
6 Boosters: $210
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force

$505, without Harvesters and includes shipping.


EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Faction Pledge w/ shipping: $210
4 (6) Heroes Add-ons: $60
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
4 (6) Boosters: $140
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force
1 Vehicle: (free part of pledge)

$535, this is also completely without any Harvesters. It ends up being cheaper, you basically get a free vehicle and you have room to add another Hero if a new one unlocks for one of those 3 factions.


EB Assault Trooper Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Assault Trooper (Riff/Sayx) w/ shipping: $130
5 Heroes Add-ons: $75
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson
- Sayx: Jason Ramires
6 Boosters: $210
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers
- Sayx Vulcans

$540, this completely without any Harvesters and buffing up the Riff army. You could also go Ares/Riff and Ares/Sayx, buffing up the Ares army and take $15 off. Another option is Ares/Riff and Sayx/Harvesters for the same price, but see about selling Harvesters.

I'm going addons and no vehicles.

I don't want any of the vehicles shown so far, so I'm 'saving' money that

Box Set Breakdowns Announced:


Looks spot on to what I predicted... I think (double checking now):

Ares vs Riff, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Sayx, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Harvesters, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs Sayx, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Sayx vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)