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At first, I am not very fond of having my opponent showing his army list when he does not seem to have one as I know it is not easy to write it down. There will be a lot of changes from the original thought and scratching all over the place makes it not easy to read for anyone other than the owner. However, 2 things changed my mind: my discovery of Battlescribe, which allows quick and easy army building, and the fact that I have been cheated in points in my most recent game. But still, I don't want to look like That Guy, so should I still ask my opponent to show his army list before the battle?

Thanks for answering.

I think it is good etiquette to show your opponent your army list and expect the same in return.

It is generally accepted that you may ask to see your opponents list(s).

YMMV.

I never have an issue with showing my list. Not because I think they are accusing me of cheating but because its easier and faster to scan the paper than have me explain everything verbally and understand that during the game they may ask questions.Just be prepared to decipher my chicken scratch because I do it by hand and keep the math to the side of the same sheet. I actually like to have the book in hand and do it "manually".

I never bother to look at an opponant's list. If it is a tourney, it was checked before by the TO and in a for fun game, I'm just happy to play and if I beat someone who has gone over, woo hoo. If I lose to them, they wont feel any accomplishment for it. Either way, I win by getting to play a game at all.

If you're worried about the etiquette of asking to see your opponent's list, the answer is simple: "Oh, do you want to look at my list before we start?"

That puts the onus on them to accept or refuse, and the difficult choice of looking like they have something to hide (or are just socially awkward) if they don't offer to return the favour.

To be honest, I never bother with this kind of thing. Pre-battle, both players verbally go through what's what and what each unit is/has. I don't really strust my opponents enough to demand to see their lists, and most of the time, we make up lists on the spot anyway with a calculator.

The one time I did call someone on their list, it was because he was clearly several thousand points over the limit, had multiples of SCs and basically just plopped his whole collection down on the table.

I think it depends entirely on your gaming meta.
At my LGS, almost no one brings army lists for pickup games, and explaining your armies to each other is just part of the expected pre-game set up.

Personally, I find just having the list an no explanation very annoying. I need to familiarize myself with what your army actually is, because the look of what's what can very so wildly in warhamer (especially where heavy conversions are the norm).
Good gaming etiquette is to point to each unit and say "This is X, with Y upgrades". Just looking at a list, I know what chaos spawn are. I don't know what your particular chaos spawn look like though.

If its a matter of policing the point limit of each other's armies, then you've got much larger problems.

Battlescribe is effective. I usually have it for personal use as well as a written down list to keep on the table.

It seems like bad etiquette to ask to see the list before a fight. It means you can list tailor.

Unless of course you mean literally RIGHT before a battle, then I don't see a problem , I mean you should know your list right?

I play Tyranids.
Monobuild FTW.

This is right before the game after youve made your list.

I rarely look at my opponent's list, but we do usually take out our armies and set them on another table before we deploy, so that we can look at what our opponent is bringing. This is also a good opportunity to point out any proxies or non-wysiwyg stuff.

One thing I expect is to have access to all the opponent's rulebooks, so that I can reference stuff during the game (especially any new forgeworld models that I haven't seen before, I expect my opponent to have a printout or at least a PDF on his laptop that I can read). If, say, a Tyranid player shows up with a Dimachaeron, I don't want his description of how cool and powerful it is, I want to read it's rules and decide for myself what it's strengths and weaknesses are.

Now, obviously at a tournament you should have a printed army list to show your opponent. But when I'm just playing pick-up games, I'm not overly concerned with whether my opponent's list is on the up and up.

I typically just print off my list and bring the page to the store with me because I don't tailor/I play what I want for fun, and I prefer that the people I play against also have hard copies of their lists. It's pretty easy to "conveniently" have the perfect upgrade for a given situation otherwise. What am I supposed to do, remember every single aspect of your army from the pre-game explanation? This would already be hard enough without some people also having non-WYSIWYG armies. Unless you're planning on being a list-tailoring spaz then there's no reason not to have a hard copy of your list before you even walk in the door. Of course you can change things up for fun later but in that case writing it down is still a necessity IMO.

If you have a good friend + you know his army and you know that he has integrity, then sure, lists aren't such a huge deal, but it's generally just better form to still have the hard copy, nobody's memory is perfect all the time.

bibotot wrote: I know it is not easy to write it down.

I shudder to think of the state of a player's army if they can't even be bothered to scratch out an army list. If he's gone through the relatively colossal effort of assembling and fully painting an army, then writing down a few numbers really shouldn't seem like too much effort.

bibotot wrote: I don't want to look like That Guy, so should I still ask my opponent to show his army list before the battle?

Would you think it's fair if a person won a game based on the fact that he had some secret upgrade he didn't show you?

I likewise shudder to think of the state of a player's army if he needs that kind of secrecy to win.

- Could you please show me your list?
- Sure, here it is.
- Thanks...oh *points in a random direction* Look, what's there?! *runs away searching for melta*

Whether its 40k or fantasy I always offer to show my list.

I have a folder of lists which I keep with me, so I always have 1 at the points value needed without wasting gaming time.

Normally against people I haven't played before/new people I will give them a choice of 3 list and let them pick which to play.

I have a 1500pt fantasy game this week against a HE player and we are each brining 3 list and picking which one we play against, should be interesting!

I remember when I first started playing, a three player game, the one guy insisted on a written list while the other refused because "he had it memorized" and he used it all the time. After a few minutes of arguing the listless finally relented. Cut to 20 minutes of him scratching his head while trying to put it on paper.

Its better to have a list, then offer your opponent the option of reading it. I don't read them, I prefer having units pointed out to me. But that is with people I know and or trust, I've heard some horrible stories which is weird considering the gaming community for the entire province is like 100 people.

Its all part of the sportsmanship of the game. Shaking hands after, asking before picking up models, not throwing dice around like a madman and so on.

At our friendly tournaments we all have to show our lists and because of that most people just bring a list to the free to play nights at the local.

I keep a copy of my lists (from 1k to 2.5k points) with me on a laminated sheet.
Just makes it quicker and easier as everything is there then.

 Jackal wrote:
I keep a copy of my lists (from 1k to 2.5k points) with me on a laminated sheet.
Just makes it quicker and easier as everything is there then.

not a bad idea and one I might start using myself

I would never consider laying someone without a written list and always offer t show my list. That is sportsmanship 101

Offering an army/force composition list is just good etiquette for any tabletop wargame. The game isn't about guessing your opponent's army composition as it is about guessing your opponent's strategy and out-witting him.

Asking for a list isn't rude either. It's especially helpful in clearing up wargear options that aren't necessarily shown on a model (i.e. artifacts, grenades, etc.).

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:
I remember when I first started playing, a three player game, the one guy insisted on a written list while the other refused because "he had it memorized" and he used it all the time. After a few minutes of arguing the listless finally relented. Cut to 20 minutes of him scratching his head while trying to put it on paper.

That too.

Yes, there are players who are veterans of many years who play more or less the same list one week to the next. It is definitely possible to have a list memorized, and up against those people, I wouldn't straight up make a stink if they didn't have anything written out. Of course, every veteran player I've ever played also always shows up with two copies of their list before the game begins, so I'm more talking about a hypothetical here.

Meanwhile, there's another group of people who don't write down lists - cheaters. Either intentionally or unintentionally, mistakes are a LOT easier to make when you're just sort of trying to remember what's going on, and there's nothing for either you or your opponent to check against. One of my worst games of 40k was with a noob who plonked down his minis and said "its the same list I bring every week" and I, also being new, let it slide. It turned out that he didn't even own a copy of his codex, and had absolutely no idea what cost what, or even what had access to which upgrades, much less what squads had actually purchased them. As the game progressed, things started picking up opportune upgrades (oh, those scouts have meltabombs now, you say?) to the point where, after the game, the person had wound up bringing some 1,500 points to a 1,000 point game.

An easy check at the beginning is to have the player at least recite their list at the beginning, so you have an understanding of what's going on. You should pretty easily be able to tell if the person knows what they're doing or not. When I was playing power blobs, I could rattle off my entire army list in like 15 seconds complete with all the upgrades. If, on the other hand, your opponent is more like "Well, umm... these are my scouts, and they have... sniper rifles and some other stuff", then it's time to get polite but firm.

We wrote:
I would never consider laying someone without a written list and always offer t show my list. That is sportsmanship 101

Safer too.

Generally the winner should leave a copy of the lost with the loser. Actually if you play together regularly that helps the loser next time and evens things up a bit. Neither side can cheat as, if you win, you get found out.

My 2 points worth anyway.

I hope noone ever expects me to read their army list. That said, mine is always available upon request.

Proper WH40K etiquette is to write out an army list each an every time you play a game. I have taught my children to do that very same thing. It is listed in the rules to do as such. Any opponent who does not do as such, is either lazy, cheating or both.

With that being said, your army list can be hand written, from a spread sheet, army builder, battle scribe or any other form of showing what models your army has. What options they are employing. And how many points everything is. If a person has a list that "he plays every week", then they should show the courtesy of having that list pre-printed out from week to week. No excuses!

Once again it comes down to player courtesy. One should come prepared with all materials ready to play a game. That means models, books, dice, measuring device, templates, and army lists.

For tournaments: I always have multiple copies of my army list and expect to be able to read my opponents army list.\

For pick up games: I generally have something scribbled down with like "6 wraiths - 240" kind of thing, where I just know what upgrades equals that points and use the list for reference when running through my army (pointing and talking about each unit) for my opponent. And I am more than happy for my opponent to just do the same, point and talk.

bibotot wrote:
At first, I am not very fond of having my opponent showing his army list when he does not seem to have one as I know it is not easy to write it down. There will be a lot of changes from the original thought and scratching all over the place makes it not easy to read for anyone other than the owner.

Writing down a list that is legible for opponents isn't that hard, and is just common courtesy for a potential opponent.

I used to keep a notebook filled with pre-made lists for every occasion at different point levels.
All neatly done up and sorted and labeled in plastic protesters.
After a while, it felt too much like tailoring for an opponent as I would just pull out the sheet most likely to help me. Note, this was based on the enemies army "type" rather than the actual models they had. Even so, just didnt feel honest so i stopped.

Tourneys... I always bring 4 copies. one to turn in and 3 extras to show/give opponents upon request. Even if I wouldnt have done it anyway, I would due to the fact the TO has that as a requirement for one of the "extra" points that are added to your score.