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Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

Yes it is worth it, it has up times and down times depending on your schedule. Hop in, find a local group and have fun

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

Your gaming group will make more difference than anything else in all honesty. Online forums like this is also where people come to vent. You can have fun with 40k, but it does have its issues, there's a reason you see the complaints.

Yes!! I wouldn't trade it for any other game (and I've tried a few). Just get used to the idea that it is NOT balanced and can be frustrating to play in a super competitive environment.
A few games of 40K is a great way to kill an afternoon with some friends.

It's not worth it. An occasional game of 40k with the right people can be fun if you've already got all of the models, but I wouldn't even consider investing in it as a new player. Get one of the other games that are much more fun and cost a lot less money.

Okay cool, I'm glad to see positive replies. I really like the idea of WH40k, and I was pretty sure that I was just seeing typical forum venting, just wanted to make sure before I take the plunge and spend ~$120 getting into a new hobby.

It's not a terrible game. I think the frustration stems from the fact that the game could be so much better with a modicum of effort from the company.

Most of the complainers (myself included) love the game, love the models, and love the universe. We just want it to be better, and we can see so clearly how it could be improved/fixed/restored to greatness without any cataclysmic shift in the industry.

A LOT of what gets complained about doesn't show up in actual play, or only shows up in actual play at tournaments, or when playing a douchebag (not that tournament players are douchebags, but brutal lists are expected in competition--and douchey when someone is trying to just play casually). A more responsive company would fix the system so that you wouldn't need to watch out for the occasional ringer with killer combos or broken units, but you can avoid that problem by playing with good blokes who aren't trying to smash you apart with the latest hotness in each match.

An analogy:
If someone makes terrible pizza and burns the hell out of it every time, you don't eat there. That place sucks.

If a pizza joint makes great pizza, but occasionally slaps unrequested anchovies on your pie, you will complain about it. You want to eat there, but WTF?

GW has a lot of greatness, and too many WTF moments.

I like the models and the fluff but honestly the rules are just terrible and a pain in the ass

have a look around at some other game systems and try before you buy

Personally i love flames of war, bolt action and am keen to try out battlegroup one day

Once you step out of the 40k only its quite a relief and you open yourself up to all the other stuff out there

If you can pull it off for $120, nice. Might be worth it then.

The thing is, 40K works best when you have a bunch of close knit, similar minded friends. If you're just going down to a store, unless they have a bunch of standard house rules and an unusually unified mindset, there will be arguments and character clashes that will spoil a lot of the fun.

If you've got that friend group though, go for it.

foureyes69 wrote:
Okay cool, I'm glad to see positive replies. I really like the idea of WH40k, and I was pretty sure that I was just seeing typical forum venting, just wanted to make sure before I take the plunge and spend ~$120 getting into a new hobby.

It's going to be way more than that. $120 barely covers the rulebooks, you can expect to spend $500-1000 or more before you'll have enough models to make a full army.

And no, it isn't just the normal forum venting that every game has. Compared to other games 40k's rules are just shamefully bad, and the negative opinions are way more common than with other games. You can still play the game if you really want to, but just be aware that the rules suck and you really need to love the fluff and models to push through that sucking and find a bit of fun in the game. If you aren't already invested in the 40k IP or care more about on-table gameplay than the background stories you should find a different game that can provide enjoyable fluff and models while also being fun to play.

I like the current state of a game. I absolutely love the fluff of my favorite race (orks) and the new codexes have been a bunch of decent books. I'm really glad they've toned down the power creep of mid 6-th.
The latest stuff is pretty well ballanced and maelstorm missions make a game more dinamic, tactical, enjoyable and somewhat ballanced overall.
Dataslates provide new ways to use the units and run your lists bringing variety and breathe life into units that'd not be used otherwise.
Models are mostly awesome.
If you don't mind buying second-hand stuff, WH40k is a rather popular hobby (for tabletop games ofc) so it won't be hard to find stuff way cheaper than retail.
There's just a ton of background material. With a decent ammount of truly awesome stuff.

All in all, the game is great to play. However, there are not only goods but also bads.
Games Workshop - the company running 40k - has a policy of not FAQ-ing stuff that's not a misprint. So, there is a number of rules that can't be interpreted in one way. You need to decide it with your own gaming group.
Dataslates cost extra, so if you're not pirating, you got to spend money on it.
Books and models are not cheap for tabletop standards. Well, not the most expensive game either but definitely not cheap. And the money required to actually start playing even at low point games - around 500-750 are significant enough to buy you a brand new bike if you buy directly from GW. However, you can just buy a bunch of models for like 30-50 bux and play tiny Killteam games. It's a lot of fun actually.
There are some obviously overpowered and underpowered models. That's not unique and is met in any tabletop and not only tabletop game. But the most negative comes from this direction.

All in all, for me it's a worthy money/time investment. I'd recommend you seeing your local gaming group first, however.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
If you can pull it off for $120, nice. Might be worth it then.

The thing is, 40K works best when you have a bunch of close knit, similar minded friends. If you're just going down to a store, unless they have a bunch of standard house rules and an unusually unified mindset, there will be arguments and character clashes that will spoil a lot of the fun.

If you've got that friend group though, go for it.

$120 is the price of me getting all the modeling supplies I'd want + a couple units to paint, I did some googling and it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make, plus or minus a few dollars depending on how good the deals I can get on ebay are. So really the total investment I'd have to make to be able to field an army would be about $220; $80 for supplies and ~$140 for the models. I don't have the friend group for it yet, but I live in a decent sized city and I'm fairly easy to get along with haha. $120 is more the cost for me to get supplies + models to see if I enjoy the painting/modeling side of things. I already have the 40k 7th Ed rulebook/DE Codex so that's not factored into the entry price.

foureyes69 wrote:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
If you can pull it off for $120, nice. Might be worth it then.

The thing is, 40K works best when you have a bunch of close knit, similar minded friends. If you're just going down to a store, unless they have a bunch of standard house rules and an unusually unified mindset, there will be arguments and character clashes that will spoil a lot of the fun.

If you've got that friend group though, go for it.

$120 is the price of me getting all the modeling supplies I'd want + a couple units to paint, I did some googling and it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make, plus or minus a few dollars depending on how good the deals I can get on ebay are. So really the total investment I'd have to make to be able to field an army would be about $220; $80 for supplies and ~$140 for the models. I don't have the friend group for it yet, but I live in a decent sized city and I'm fairly easy to get along with haha. $120 is more the cost for me to get supplies + models to see if I enjoy the painting/modeling side of things. I already have the 40k 7th Ed rulebook/DE Codex so that's not factored into the entry price.

Than you can discount one drawback of it being expensive

Have you watched actual games?

Honestly, your local gaming scene will have the largest effect on how much you play and how much fun you may be able to get out of it. That being said, i love 40k. It's one of the funnest hobbies I've ever had and so creative and unique.

The biggest hurdle to get over is definitely the amount of people who may or may not play in your area and the price point. Luckily, the price point can be mitigated some by eBay and sites like Craigslist, where you can pick up secondhand models and rulebooks cheaper than new.

Also, don't blow all your money on top of the line paints. I've gotten great results with $.77 paint bottles and cheap brushes, building up my skill. Best of luck man!

Oh, don't forget you can make models yourself! Though, it won't be easy to create a dark eldar model, it's not that hard to make the equipment you want. Like a rifle, a sword or something.

foureyes69 wrote:
it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make

Unfortunately people rarely play at 500 points. A normal game of 40k is at least 1000 points, and usually 1500-2000. Few people will have 500 point armies available for you to play against, and they may or may not have any interest in such a tiny game (I wouldn't). So if you think you're only going to spend that much money you're going to be putting yourself in a situation where the only way to get a game is to beg someone to give you a newbie teaching game. If you want to play normal pickup games at your local store you're going to need at least a 1500 point army.

40k rules are pretty terrible. They're poorly written, excessively long, unbalanced and GW don't do a good job of fixing mistakes or clearing up rules so you're left to house rule a bunch of stuff that should be black and white but isn't.

The value of 40k lies in the expansive universe and cool** aesthetic and expansive range of armies and miniatures for those armies.

The other value of 40k lies in whether or not you have a good local group of people who play it. Although I rarely play 40k any more, it's the only game I have consistently maintained over the past 18 or so years because when it comes to other games there's just not the community involved to keep playing it. Of course that's relative to your specific location and friends. The 40k community out this way is a shadow of what it used to be... but it's still stronger than a lot of other games.

**cool is obviously a subjective term.

Well, the game is not bad. In fact, the 7th ed is quite good.

However, getting into the game requires some money to spend, like 500 to 1000 Euro.
Moreover, it will make no sense if you don't have a gaming group somewhere.

Here's the problem though. Folk come here to have a right old moan; get issues off their chests. The VAST majority don't. Just because one or two say that the rule book is rubbish does not mean that it is. Some folk exist purely to support the little companies whilst, at the same time, bashing the big guys.

GW is a big guy. As a part of that their sales are massive with a huge fanbase which also includes a very large amount of history and stories thrown in. Many of the smaller ones can't even fill one chapter of the codex in terms of pages of race history for their whole range.

Go for it, start with 500 points, you can always get more later. As you've seen ebay is great for such things; buying something that has been painted with a yard brush by a five year old can be bought, stripped and painted new for the price of a coffee. Not a bad way to start at all.

Good luck, you'll love it.

foureyes69 wrote:What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game

Yes.

People who don't like the game complain about the game, but people who don't like anything complain about it. Of course, what you're also seeing is people disliking 40k religiously as well - with a firm, emotional attachment to the idea that a game they may or may not even play is unholy and that the apocalypse is nigh where the devil (GW) will finally be destroyed in the final battle of the end times.

You don't have to buy into the cult in order to buy into 40k. In fact, you'll like it a lot more if you limit exposure to people who apparently have a part-time job of bashing GW and its games on internet forums. Thankfully, dakka has this neat little ignore button that helps you do just that.

A lot of the complaining is from the vocal minority. A small number of people yelling the loudest so all you here are the complaints.

But a lot of people still enjoy the game. Even with its balance issues its a lot of fun to build, paint, and play and has a great setting with lots of room for customization.

 Elmodiddly wrote:
Here's the problem though. Folk come here to have a right old moan; get issues off their chests. The VAST majority don't.

The vast majority just quit when they figure out how bad it is. I don't think I'm wrong in saying...

They're poorly written, excessively long, unbalanced and GW don't do a good job of fixing mistakes or clearing up rules so you're left to house rule a bunch of stuff that should be black and white but isn't.

...that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game or that it's necessarily a bad game to start, but I think people should be aware of the issues before getting in to it.

I think that assumption isn't exactly true Skink.

If the vast majority really does leave GW why are they still in business and why do I know many, many folk who are almost mid life yet still playing? The latest MK club meet as well as the Derby meet GW players were mainly old fogies like myself. Still happy and still perfectly capable of accepting the changes and the new rules without going over how the good old days were better.

The lists are not as unbalanced as folk think and it is easy to criticise but very hard to justify the claims. GW have been doing this for decades now, I think they know what they're doing.

Sorry I worded that badly, I didn't mean "the vast majority quit", I more meant "the vast majority who start to dislike it quit rather than hanging around to complain about it".

The former can't really be said because we really have no idea of retention numbers for gamers. I can say that I know more people who have played and quit than are still playing, but that's obviously only anecdotal evidence and I have been around for about 18-19 years so it's no surprise I know so many people who have quit.

If I were to have a guess, I'd say 40k has low retention numbers, but obviously that's just a guess. I think most people quit when they realise how fething mind numbing and time consuming painting a whole army can actually be.

My point was more that talking about a "vocal minority" as if most people are happy and only a minority are unhappy is a bit incorrect when you consider most people who get unhappy with 40k just quit and don't hang around the forums to talk about it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Of course, what you're also seeing is people disliking 40k religiously as well - with a firm, emotional attachment to the idea that a game they may or may not even play is unholy and that the apocalypse is nigh where the devil (GW) will finally be destroyed in the final battle of the end times.

Yeah, it's all just an anti-GW cult. It couldn't possibly be the case that GW publishes a horrible product, and there certainly isn't any rational reason to think that 40k is a shameful mess that no self-respecting game designer would want their name attached to. Just keep wearing that GW™ FineFoil™ tinfoil hat.

I say go for it!

In all honesty, the one thing to bear in mind above all else is that 40k is what you make it. If you go looking for an ultra-competitive tactical excercise you won't enjoy it, if you want an excuse to hang out with some like-minded people, throw a few dice and tell a good story with nicely painted models, you'll love it! Communication is the key, but the same could be said for any game or sport involving more than 1 person.

As much as the costs can seem high, there are a few good ways to make it seem far less of a burden:

1) When buying supplies, get only what you need. If you have no intention of having something bright blue in your army, there's no need to get a blue paint. Sounds obvious, but while the savings on 'starter bundles' of paints and brushes may look tempting, consider if you'll actually use everything in there.

2) Learn to mix paint. Again, sounds obvious, but where GW will sell you 2-3 paints to get a colour in various shades, but the same effect can be had just by having a white (or light grey and cream for different tones) and black (or again, a dark brown and dark grey for variety) on hand with your main colours. It might seem complicated at first, and takes a while to get right, but it's as simple as adding white to get a highlight and black to shade. Setting up a wet pallete can also help your paint go further, take a look up in the P&M section for some good tutorials on how to make one.

3) Spread the cost: An army for 40k might seem expensive, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're obliged to build it in one go. You're on the right lines of buying a box at a time, rather than thinking 'I need 1500 points NOW!!', and when you're buying just a box of minis every 3-4 weeks, the cost is far less overwhelming. I'm going to be hypocriticaland suggest you stick to a policy of not buying anything more until you've painted your last purchase; not only will this spread the cost, it will also motivate you to paint!

4) As said, buy second hand, or from online retailers that offer discount, and where possible, go for sets that give some kind of saving. I think there's a bundle at the moment of a Kabalite/Wych Squad and a Raider for significantly cheaper than buying both separately, that might be worth looking into.

5) Convert EVERYTHING! Don't buy an Archon, you can build a good one from the Kabalite parts and any spare weapons you have. Look into Plasicard and Green Stuff modelling when you feel ready to, and you can do all sorts. Build some plasticard Skyboards and turn Wyches into Hellions. Sculpt some capes and turn Warriors into Trueborn. It can be daunting, but it's a good skill to have!

Hope that helps, and that you have a good time getting into 40k!

Give it a try, many people are satisfied with it. And hey, if you don't like it, you can always 'quit' yet remain on 40k messageboards incessantly voicing your malcontent with a game you apparently no longer play!

win/win!!!1

There is no other miniatures game I enjoyed as much and as often for as long a time.

I've tried many others, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Mantic Games, etc..., and they all have their charms, but all of them grew stale after a few months.

40K I keep coming back to again and again, even if I take the occasional hiatus. Looking back over the number of games I played in recent years, I certainly got a hell of a lot more bang for the buck from 40K than I got for my non-GW minis, which tend to be relegated to collecting dust in their boxes a lot quicker.

There's always a lot of whining and griping about "unbalanced this" and "powercreep" there, but in a perverse sort of way, it also ensures that 40K is always a "new game" to discover over and over again, when you've stepped out of it for a few months and then step back in.

I find it fun to write up lists and play out battles using my Blood Angels, which is like playing 40k hard mode at the moment.

Guy 1 that I got into the game loves finding random objects to fit onto his ork models.

Guy 2 that I got into the game has since made his own fandex and actually made his own models for some unique infantry units. One of his hq's has a scratch-made battle-axe, and is resting his other hand on a shaved-down nemesis greatsword sticking out of his base. Awesome looking model.

And so on. Just the section of our group that comes over to play in my game room is 8-9 people. We do custom scenarios, narrative games, teams, free for alls, etc. New models coming out, or our latest purchases or projects, or just the most recent game is enough to give us a good amount of fun conversation at work or on the road.

Long story short, I have fun with the game mainly because I have a group that has fun with the game. I wouldn't have ever picked up models if I didn't think I would get some people to play with.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Of course, what you're also seeing is people disliking 40k religiously as well - with a firm, emotional attachment to the idea that a game they may or may not even play is unholy and that the apocalypse is nigh where the devil (GW) will finally be destroyed in the final battle of the end times.

Yeah, it's all just an anti-GW cult. It couldn't possibly be the case that GW publishes a horrible product, and there certainly isn't any rational reason to think that 40k is a shameful mess that no self-respecting game designer would want their name attached to. Just keep wearing that GW™ FineFoil™ tinfoil hat.

The way you keep loudly shouting and ramming your opinion down our throats with the implication we'd be idiots to disagree with you is why you would be identified as an anti GW "cultist", though honestly its just an analogy.

I just want to also point out the irony and hypocrisy of stereotyping Ailaros as though he's a pro GW "cultist". The rules at the end of the day work and provide enjoyment for Ailaros, myself, others in this thread and other people who play 40k, the cost is acceptable no matter how grudgingly, and we're not ignorant or blind or dumb as your tinfoil hat analogy implies because or in part due to that. We like the game as it is so we're going to tell others we enjoy it and dismiss extreme views to the contrary as you'd expect.