Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

foureyes69 wrote:
Okay cool, I'm glad to see positive replies. I really like the idea of WH40k, and I was pretty sure that I was just seeing typical forum venting, just wanted to make sure before I take the plunge and spend ~$120 getting into a new hobby.

So you are not looking for honest opinions you are just looking for those that validate your own?

Go at it then, those 120$ of yours barely cover the cost of the rules let alone get you any playable force, but since you don't even have a group of people to play with the chances of you actually reaching the stage where you are get to play a game are slim to none.

foureyes69 wrote:
Okay cool, I'm glad to see positive replies. I really like the idea of WH40k, and I was pretty sure that I was just seeing typical forum venting, just wanted to make sure before I take the plunge and spend ~$120 getting into a new hobby.

120$ . Even a recast 1500 army costs more. The rulebooks and codex alone are over 150$.

I like the current state of a game. I absolutely love the fluff of my favorite race (orks) and the new codexes have been a bunch of decent books. I'm really glad they've toned down the power creep of mid 6-th.
The latest stuff is pretty well ballanced and maelstorm missions make a game more dinamic, tactical, enjoyable and somewhat ballanced overall.
Dataslates provide new ways to use the units and run your lists bringing variety and breathe life into units that'd not be used otherwise.
Models are mostly awesome.

you should add to this: If stuff is house ruled, people play with random model or bad armies and GK and SW are ignored as 7th ed book , AND no body plays necron or eldar AND nid players aren't using skyblight. There is absolutly nothing that can make a w40k game of normal points dynamic with separat rolls on ton of stuff, constant LoS and range checking and ton of random effects to roll on pre , durning and post game.

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

Before pumping any money into the game, find a local group and ask if you can borrow someone's army for a game. You'll find out if you like the game, and if you get on with the people in the group.

As to if it's as bad as everyone says it is - Does winning games mean anything to you ? If not, then 40k is absolutely fine.
If you do care about winning games, then yes it's terrible.

Bartali wrote:
As to if it's as bad as everyone says it is - Does winning games mean anything to you ? If not, then 40k is absolutely fine.
If you do care about winning games, then yes it's terrible.

I think the problem with this is that a large pile of people might go in not caring about winning, but after maybe 10 or 20 games, winning or losing does start to matter, especially when you've invested so much time and money. Not saying everyone is like that, but I didn't really care about winning or losing or competitiveness when I started. After playing a few games with the same army I did start to care though.

Also I think a lot of the flaws with 40k might not be apparent until you've had a few games under your belt (the only one that might be obvious is how unnecessarily long the rules are ). Indeed it'll probably take you half a dozen games before you even have a grasp on the rules and maybe a dozen or two more before you start to work out the strengths and weaknesses of different armies and depending on how competitive your meta is you might start learning about the lack of balance. When you get to learning about the lack of balance you will be very disappointed if you'd bought a bunch of Pyrovores

Depends on what you want out of it. If you want a solid set of rules where you can build a force that you want, maybe theme it and do well then yes 40k is as bad as everyone says, because it doesn't really have any of that (although the standard line is that it does). The rules are poorly balanced, unclear and often require you to decide with your specific opponent how to handle a given situation, which means that the next opponent might interpret a different way as there are multiple interpretations. There is little or no thought given to balance so you can easily end up spending a lot on units that are subpar and can sway a game against you simply by being chosen over other, better performing units. While it's often espoused as the right way to play it is IMHO dangerous to simply pick units based on looks alone for precisely that reason. Nobody wants to pay hundreds of dollars on miniatures, spend lots of time painting them up and then find out later that you chose all of the "bad" units and are going to lose nearly every game you play due to no fault of your own because they simply aren't that good with the actual rules for the game because the designers don't care about balance or gave it any thought whatsoever.

If you like the figures, the background and either don't plan to play a lot (e.g. you want to collect a small Dark Eldar force to paint up nicely and bring out once in a while) or have a like-minded group that only plays fluffy campaign games, then you will likely get more mileage out of 40k because you can have group rules to cover the cloudy situations and everyone is going to pick units they like versus units that perform well (although one caveat of this approach is that it's easy to have a unit you like that also performs very well and vice versa, so there is still that gross imbalance even in a casual group playing campaign games).

40k is one of, if not the only, game that actually encourages a close-knit "clique" to play it without frustration instead of encouraging a wide range of opponents and a "play anywhere" type of mentality, because you need to decide what is/isn't acceptable (even if it's otherwise legal to play eg. Forge World, LoW, etc.), how to interpret vague rules, what style of game you want, and on top of that it can change from opponent to opponent as Tom might be fine with LoWs because he fields a Knight, but Bob hates them and won't play you if you field that Baneblade even if you legally can and it's not really "OP", and Jim doesn't care either way because he can only get a game in once a month so it really doesn't matter.

All depends on the group. I've found a group I massively enjoy playing with that gives me a hugely varied play experience and a friendly environment, but when I first moved to boston I was on the verge of quitting out of frustration with my old game store.

Basically, before you invest at all, find a group and go see how they play. If they seem friendly and inviting then go for it.

I'm a casual player, try and get a game every Wednesday night with a friend, and I can honestly say I love it. Whether I win or lose I always have a good time.
Trying my new Ork army for the first time tonight and can't wait.

Go to a Games Workshop if possible and have a quick game with one of the staff or if that isn't to easy for you to do watch a battle report on youtube. I recommend MiniWarGaming as they try to explain as much as they can during the games. This wont be the best way to understand the game but it should help in some way.

Your mileage may vary.

As a bunch of people said, it depends on what you want out of the game. There are legitimate issues with rule design and convolution; in conjunction with said cost of the rules, it creates some notable frustration with the game.

However, if you don't have to invest money in the rules and/or don't mind these sorts of issues, and you have a good gaming group, then 40k should be a fun past-time.

1. Find people to play against.
2. Borrow models for a demo game.
3. If/when you're ready to dive in, buy the codex for the army you like.
4. Buy the smallest amount of stuff to play the smallest game they play, and borrow their rules until you can get your own.
5. Expand and enjoy.

The club I play at has around 50 people who come and go. Most move on to other games, but most of them get a game of WH and 40k sometimes anyway. Most weeks there's a game of 40k going. It's been like that for the 4 years I've been going there.

These sort of topics always make me wish GW hadn't axed the Specialist games from their repertoire. It used to be if you were interested in the models and background, you could start with something like Gorkamorka or Necromunda to try the whole thing out. Now you're looking at a minimum of $135 just for a rulebook and codex, and then many hundreds of dollars for a functioning army.

I just feel like it's a huge missed opportunity, as people struggle to make the decision whether to jump in or not with such a hefty investment.

Yes it is worth it. I love the game, I love the fluff, I love painting the models and creating terrain. I love that I spend lot of time at work thinking about how to paint, model or play; this brightens up my workdays a lot.

Those people discontent with 40k are usually from two generic directions:
* Competitive players complaining about armies and games not being 100% fair at a given point value.
* "Casual" players not being imaginative and not setting up games so it is most fun to them and their opponents.

Many people miss that the rulebook asks for you and your opponent to agree on something. So if you don't agree on allowing Lord of Wars or Forgeworld in your game then don't use it. If you would like to include FW, but your opponent doesn't then play against other people with it.

I guess many people expect GW to present something that pleases them and that everyone else has to adhere to. And that's the big mistake. Meet with someone, agree on something you both deem interesting/challenging/fair/whatever and then have a good time. If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea then you will most likely not get happy with any system.

So wait people pay 100+$ for rule sets which to be actualy played have to be modified on a one per person per game ratio? And how big does a community have to be so that both the normal , the casual , the FW , the LoW knight using people get enough opponents to play with. The shop would have to have like 30+people and mulitiple tables for w40k alone for them to get a game in. That is not very realistic.

 Murenius wrote:
Those people discontent with 40k are usually from two generic directions:
* Competitive players complaining about armies and games not being 100% fair at a given point value.
* "Casual" players not being imaginative and not setting up games so it is most fun to them and their opponents.

I feel like this is a rather disingenuous characterization of those making complaints. There are obviously people who won't ever be happy and do enjoy bashing GW, but that is just one far-edge group...the same goes for the opposite end of the spectrum. But I also don't see what's wrong with competitive gamers wanting some balance being added to the game- they certainly have historically supplied a large amount of GW's revenue, and tournaments have been a huge boon for the community. Plus balance isn't something that only competitive players want to have.

As far the casual players not being imaginative enough, I think you need to need to refrain from speaking down about other groups as if they're "bad" at playing the game.

I guess many people expect GW to present something that pleases them and that everyone else has to adhere to. And that's the big mistake. Meet with someone, agree on something you both deem interesting/challenging/fair/whatever and then have a good time. If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea then you will most likely not get happy with any system.

Again, I feel like you're being very narrow-minded. If you like 40k, its style of player interaction and whatnot, then good on you, I'm glad you're enjoying it. But don't pretend it is the *only* system that a person may enjoy.

Yes, it is worth it. I enjoy my hobby a lot. In many respects, things are actually quite good compared to other periods. Keep in mind that some of the most vocal nay-Sayers in this august forum do not play Warhammer!

Makumba wrote:
So wait people pay 100+$ for rule sets which to be actualy played have to be modified on a one per person per game ratio? And how big does a community have to be so that both the normal , the casual , the FW , the LoW knight using people get enough opponents to play with. The shop would have to have like 30+people and mulitiple tables for w40k alone for them to get a game in. That is not very realistic.

Really? We have...let's see...10 tables where I'm at, plus a double sized painting table, maybe 12 regulars and three times as many that show up half to a quarter of the time. There's generally nothing bigger than a WK outside of apoc events, and we've got a couple lander bane blade sized tanks if anyone feels particularly outgunned. And TBH I don't think anyone's had any serious trouble with forgeworld, honestly most of the stuff is quite tame.

WayneTheGame wrote:

....40k is one of, if not the only, game that actually encourages a close-knit "clique" to play it without frustration instead of encouraging a wide range of opponents and a "play anywhere" type of mentality.....

That's Jervis and his 80's D&D obsession for you

Whether it is as bad as "everyone" says it is can be debated, because different people have different standards, but, what can be said without debate is almost 11K people so far have signed this petition,

https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures

Calling for GW to focus less on selling models and more on developing and improving the game (while technically this would apply to WHFB too, it's folly to think that GW and 40K aren't largely synonymous at this point)

Bartali wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

....40k is one of, if not the only, game that actually encourages a close-knit "clique" to play it without frustration instead of encouraging a wide range of opponents and a "play anywhere" type of mentality.....

That's Jervis and his 80's D&D obsession for you

Well, D&D and 40k/FB are the only games of its popularity that have contiguously survived since the 80's, so they're probably doing something right.

Paradigm wrote:As much as the costs can seem high, there are a few good ways to make it seem far less of a burden:

I'd agree with all of that. The one thing I'd add is to "have perspective". 40k looks expensive when you're a teenager, where your hobbies are playing pirated video games and watching TV. When you get a little older, though, 40k is a positively cheap activity to get involved in. A $100 buy-in is nothing compared to a hobby that involves an engine of some sort, or mind-altering chemicals, or where you need to buy serious tools instead of just an xacto knife and a paint brush.

One of the things that makes 40k good is precisely that it's so cheap over time. Heck, in the last five years think I've spent more money on netflix than 40k.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, D&D and 40k/FB are the only games of its popularity that have contiguously survived since the 80's, so they're probably doing something right.

Oh bullgak. Longevity is not an indication of success or of competence. There have been (and still are) plenty of companies that muddle along without going under, but still do things wrong.

I play mostly in a tight-knit group, and I love the game. I don't love the prices.

When i started, there was 40k, fantasy, and flames of war. That was about it. Now you have Warmachine, Malifaux, and Star Wars all coming out with new interesting systems. Then you have probably a dozen other game systems that have not caught on around here but are trying to.

Now, 40k has the best fluff hands down. It is more believable and much broader scoped than any other game out there. But for rules? Its getting pretty awful. I started in 4th, and it was decently convoluted then. 5th simplified and expanded the game with more forgiving transport rules and a good balance between assault and shooting. The codexes were a bit problematic with power creep very apparent, but the base rule system was quite solid. Now its become the game of checkboxes. Do you have enough AT to kill a super heavy. Can you kill fliers, what about FMCs? Can you deal with ignores cover weapons? Can you deal with hordes? The number of different types of units has vastly expanded to the detriment of the game (IMO). A TAC list is not likely going to be able to deal with all comers now. You HAVE to specialize in one strength or another. And dont even get started with unbound lists or allies or multiple detachments. Its honestly the worst mess of rules additions i have ever seen to a game.

If i had to start now, i would pick another game. 40k has just become a too bloated ruleset with too few restrictions to limit TFG and too much room for abuse. The ruleset is just too mixed up between large battles, small skirmishes, and rules that dont translate between them. In a 1500 point game FMCs may be a bit more reasonable, but a 500 point game? Not even close. Same with Titans.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, D&D and 40k/FB are the only games of its popularity that have contiguously survived since the 80's, so they're probably doing something right.

Oh bullgak. Longevity is not an indication of success or of competence. There have been (and still are) plenty of companies that muddle along without going under, but still do things wrong.

Yes but 40k hasn't "muddled' along, it has been and still is successful. By all means discredit the rules, the models but not the success of the company..

foureyes69 wrote:

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

I greatly enjoy it.

Look at any game forum and 90% of what you see is complaining. Video game forums are a perfect example. People just love to whine bitch and moan about stuff.
Think of this as a hobby first, and game second. I get so much more now that I convert and take my time with modeling and painting.

 Alphabet wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, D&D and 40k/FB are the only games of its popularity that have contiguously survived since the 80's, so they're probably doing something right.

Oh bullgak. Longevity is not an indication of success or of competence. There have been (and still are) plenty of companies that muddle along without going under, but still do things wrong.

Yes but 40k hasn't "muddled' along, it has been and still is successful. By all means discredit the rules, the models but not the success of the company..

You mean the company that has dropped entire ranges of games and let competitors move in, allowed competitors to enter the field by virtue of offering cheaper alternatives and balanced rules, and has experienced reduced revenue and lost customers? That is what passes for success nowadays?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

foureyes69 wrote:

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

I greatly enjoy it.

Look at any game forum and 90% of what you see is complaining. Video game forums are a perfect example. People just love to whine bitch and moan about stuff.
Think of this as a hobby first, and game second. I get so much more now that I convert and take my time with modeling and painting.

There you have it, OP: 40k is worth it if you want a hobby and not a game.

 zephoid wrote:

Now, 40k has the best fluff hands down. It is more believable and much broader scoped than any other game out there.

Huh?

What exactly makes 40k fluff more believable than the Iron Kingdoms, Infinity or X-Wing?

OP, 40k is great, we just like to complain.

 Peregrine wrote:

foureyes69 wrote:
it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make

Unfortunately people rarely play at 500 points. A normal game of 40k is at least 1000 points, and usually 1500-2000. Few people will have 500 point armies available for you to play against, and they may or may not have any interest in such a tiny game (I wouldn't). So if you think you're only going to spend that much money you're going to be putting yourself in a situation where the only way to get a game is to beg someone to give you a newbie teaching game. If you want to play normal pickup games at your local store you're going to need at least a 1500 point army.

You're kidding right? My FLGS runs Combat Patrol games every Friday Nights, with the limit of 500 points. 500 point games are quite common, you just have to ask your opponent. Most people can easily whip up a 500 point army in 2 seconds.

OP, best advice I can give:

1) Really look at what your local hobby shop game scene is like. Look for players that you think would be fun to play against and inquire about the games.
2) If 40k still looks like the more interesting game, start looking into what armies best fit your play style and how "competitive" vs. "fluff" you want to play.
3) Get hold of a used 7th edition rulebook and the latest codex(s) of interest.
4) Figure out a force you would like to put together.
5) Look in auctions and inquire with various friends of models for sale, see if any introduction box sets contain some of the force you want.
6) Assemble, prime and start playing as soon as possible.

I have played 40k since the tail end of 2nd edition and I think I would have great difficulty if I was starting out in this edition.
It is so ridiculously open ended you can slip into analysis-paralysis deciding on what to play.
I have so many models now that anything new is not that much of a hardship to update.
It is a great looking game but not as... immediate in feel for tactical play.

I have been playing X-wing a fair bit lately and some Battletech-Alpha-Strike and been very happy with tactical play there.

Look for where the fun is and start with that, 40k is a bit of a long term/haul commitment that should not be entered lightly.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

foureyes69 wrote:
it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make

Unfortunately people rarely play at 500 points. A normal game of 40k is at least 1000 points, and usually 1500-2000. Few people will have 500 point armies available for you to play against, and they may or may not have any interest in such a tiny game (I wouldn't). So if you think you're only going to spend that much money you're going to be putting yourself in a situation where the only way to get a game is to beg someone to give you a newbie teaching game. If you want to play normal pickup games at your local store you're going to need at least a 1500 point army.

You're kidding right? My FLGS runs Combat Patrol games every Friday Nights, with the limit of 500 points. 500 point games are quite common, you just have to ask your opponent. Most people can easily whip up a 500 point army in 2 seconds.

You assume your FLGS is indicative of anything other than your FLGS. In my experience across a few game stores (before I stopped playing and when I was considering starting up again) people will very rarely play small point games unless it's a newbie's first couple of games, barring things like escalation leagues or small point campaign and tournament games.