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Suppose I charge a Dreadknight into a group of Incubi led by an Archon. I declared a challenge which the Archon accepts. However, the Dreadknight immediately kills the Archon with a S6 HoW which his opponent fails his 2+ invul. When the Dreadknight attacks, as in after all the Incubi have done hitting him, do his blows get reallocated to the Incubi or I still have to attack the Archon who is now dead and spillover the wounds?

This does make a difference because Dreadknight will hit Archon on 4+ but Incubi on 3+.

Thank you for answering.

I think excess wounds from a challenge now spill over onto the rest of the unit.

So you're wounding the Archon, but any "extra" wounds are taken from his unit.

I don't think the Archon's unit is allowed to attack your dreadknight since he was in a challenge though.

You still attack the Archon. Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence.

I don't think the Archon's unit is allowed to attack your dreadknight since he was in a challenge though.

The rules disagree with you.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rules disagree with you.

I play by my own rules, baby.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You still attack the Archon. Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence.

I don't think the Archon's unit is allowed to attack your dreadknight since he was in a challenge though.

The rules disagree with you.

You have to be more specific than that. I use the limited edition rulebook.

Why would Limited Edition make a difference? What is on page 102 of the LE rulebook?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why would Limited Edition make a difference? What is on page 102 of the LE rulebook?

Limited edition makes all the difference, baby.

a fat guy wrote:
I play by my own rules, baby.

While this is fine, of course, please refrain from discussing this in YMDC threads, which are focused on RAW or as close as can be achieved. Thanks.

 RiTides wrote:

a fat guy wrote:
I play by my own rules, baby.

While this is fine, of course, please refrain from discussing this in YMDC threads, which are focused on RAW or as close as can be achieved. Thanks.

It was a joke... I would've put an emoticon in there, but couldn't find one with sunglasses. That would have made it more clear.

Since your challenge opponent has been removed from the table by the time it comes to your regular attacks initiative they would be resolved against the WS/T of the squad.

7th Edition allows anyone in the unit to allocate wounds into and out of challenges (if there are no other models that can be allocated those wounds). So your dreadknight would also be swung at by the incubi too.

wtnind wrote:
Since your challenge opponent has been removed from the table by the time it comes to your regular attacks initiative they would be resolved against the WS/T of the squad.

7th Edition allows anyone in the unit to allocate wounds into and out of challenges (if there are no other models that can be allocated those wounds). So your dreadknight would also be swung at by the incubi too.

Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence disagrees with you. You attack the Archon still and over spill wounds hit the squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that the DK cannot attack? Since he instant killed the character, he's still in a challenge, but the guy died before he can strike blows and therefore stands there.
That's how my group interpreted it.

Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

This is so counter intuitive but it really seems to makes perfect sense after taking a look at rules.

The only thing I might say which could counter your interpretation is this line:

When allocating Wounds caused by either of these two models, they must be allocated to their opponent first

Since your opponent doesn't exist to have wounds allocated to first, you can't then move on to allocate to the rest but that is really just looking for problems. (It would mean you would roll to hit and wound but then do nothing)

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other and, when rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent. When allocating Wounds caused by either of these two models, they must be allocated to their opponent first. These Wounds cannot be reallocated by the Look Out, Sir rule.

They always use the WS and T of their opponent for the duration of the challenge.

Combatant Slain

If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat. When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below).

The challenge is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces.

Outside Forces

Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

Which only tells us something about Wound Allocation.


From the point of view of everything else, the challenge ends when one of the participants is slain.

Thus, the DK would then proceed to roll To Hit and To Wound on the rest of the unit, but wounds would be allocated as if the challenge was still ongoing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

But the Archon is already dead at I10. Does that make him WS0?

Did any Rule reduce the Weapon Skill of the Model?

bibotot wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

But the Archon is already dead at I10. Does that make him WS0?

Why would it?

 FlingitNow wrote:

wtnind wrote:
Since your challenge opponent has been removed from the table by the time it comes to your regular attacks initiative they would be resolved against the WS/T of the squad.

7th Edition allows anyone in the unit to allocate wounds into and out of challenges (if there are no other models that can be allocated those wounds). So your dreadknight would also be swung at by the incubi too.

Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence disagrees with you. You attack the Archon still and over spill wounds hit the squad.

"If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat."

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain,regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see opposite)"

Indicates that the event "combatant is slain" happens during an initiative step
Implies that the challenge is over, except for the purposes of Outside Forces (given it's explicitly mentioned)

Given the red text I would argue that the text in violet refers to the wounds in the wound pool at the time the combatant is slain (which happens during a given initiative step). After that initiative step, the dread knight is no longer "involved in a challenge" except for the purposes of outside forces (people striking into the combat).

wtnind wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

wtnind wrote:
Since your challenge opponent has been removed from the table by the time it comes to your regular attacks initiative they would be resolved against the WS/T of the squad.

7th Edition allows anyone in the unit to allocate wounds into and out of challenges (if there are no other models that can be allocated those wounds). So your dreadknight would also be swung at by the incubi too.

Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence disagrees with you. You attack the Archon still and over spill wounds hit the squad.

"If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat."

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain,regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see opposite)"

Indicates that the event "combatant is slain" happens during an initiative step
Implies that the challenge is over, except for the purposes of Outside Forces (given it's explicitly mentioned)

Given the red text I would argue that the text in violet refers to the wounds in the wound pool at the time the combatant is slain (which happens during a given initiative step). After that initiative step, the dread knight is no longer "involved in a challenge" except for the purposes of outside forces (people striking into the combat).

Thanks for adding the colors and improving the clarity

wtnind wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

wtnind wrote:
Since your challenge opponent has been removed from the table by the time it comes to your regular attacks initiative they would be resolved against the WS/T of the squad.

7th Edition allows anyone in the unit to allocate wounds into and out of challenges (if there are no other models that can be allocated those wounds). So your dreadknight would also be swung at by the incubi too.

Page 102 paragraph 3 2nd sentence disagrees with you. You attack the Archon still and over spill wounds hit the squad.

"If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat."

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain,regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see opposite)"

Indicates that the event "combatant is slain" happens during an initiative step
Implies that the challenge is over, except for the purposes of Outside Forces (given it's explicitly mentioned)

Given the red text I would argue that the text in violet refers to the wounds in the wound pool at the time the combatant is slain (which happens during a given initiative step). After that initiative step, the dread knight is no longer "involved in a challenge" except for the purposes of outside forces (people striking into the combat).

You can argue that is what the violet is referring to but it doesn't say that is what it is referring to. It says each wound after he's dead. Also colouring rules in Green doesn't mean they don't apply as you seem to contest.

At I4 when the Knight strikes is he still engaged in a challenge with the Archon? Read the green to find the answer to this.

If he is (like the rules clearly state he is) then you strike against his Ws&T as per the Challenge rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

But the Archon is already dead at I10. Does that make him WS0?

Why would it?

Because the Dreaknight is hitting a corpse. This is similar to Periling to death while shooting Psychic powers. If the psyker dies, the shooting power that does go off will be resolved at BS0, meaning that blasts will scatter full.

What rules say that?

Also Bs0 = automiss not a full scatter. So I have no idea where you are getting these rules from?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What rules say that?

Also Bs0 = automiss not a full scatter. So I have no idea where you are getting these rules from?

Our community agrees that.

While house rules are totally fine, You should let people on the forums know when you are referencing house rules, as stating something like "dead characters are reduced to BS 0/WS 0" will generally make people on this forum have a heart attack.

bibotot wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
What rules say that?

Also Bs0 = automiss not a full scatter. So I have no idea where you are getting these rules from?

Our community agrees that.

They have houseruled then, as nothing int he written rules alters the WS/BS of the model.

Bojazz,
Indeed... we have enough problems trying to get people to realize that Modes which are Removed as Casualties do not suddenly cease to exist as far as the Game is concerned. A few of those Models may still have Special Rules which have an ongoing effect on the game, or can still influence the game even though the Model is 'dead' and nothing prevents these Rules from still being applied. The most common of these are the Special Rules allowing certain Characters to change the Battlefield Role of specific Units, important for calculating Objective Secured which always occurs at the end of the Game.

It is also why Warlord Traits have a clause preventing them being used after death.

 FlingitNow wrote:

At I4 when the Knight strikes is he still engaged in a challenge with the Archon? Read the green to find the answer to this.

That would be 'no' then, as the knight is not 'outside force'.

bibotot wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope he still attacks the Archon's Ws and T as he's still engaged with him therefore still has permission to attack him and nothing in that sentence removes that permission. Excess wounds thus still go onto the squad which means in this case all of them.

But the Archon is already dead at I10. Does that make him WS0?

Why would it?

Because the Dreaknight is hitting a corpse. This is similar to Periling to death while shooting Psychic powers. If the psyker dies, the shooting power that does go off will be resolved at BS0, meaning that blasts will scatter full.

It's not. Read the clarification by wtnind and myself, the rules very clearly say that the challenge ends when one of the participants dies, you don't just get to beat a dead horse.

The way to resolve it following the rules would then be.

HoW is resolved, target is dead and whatever excess wounds remain get allocated.

However the rest of the attacks for the turn cannot be made by the DK.

Essentially HoW is his only attack for the turn.

Or

HoW is resolved as a part of the assault phase. Both sides continue to roll their to-hit and to-wound, etc.

After Initiative 1 attacks are resolved, saves are made FOR ALL. Then as the Initiative 10 attacks are resolved and the DK slays the challengee, the defeated losses all of its attacks after Initiative 10 step; the remaining attacks are still rolled to be saved however any failures are allocated to the unit.

I'm away from the codex so I cannot check, but everything is dependent on whether HoW is resolved before or after the challenge step. I would also have to check the assault section for more clear wording on challenges...