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Hello tactics forum,

I understand that Inqisitor Karamazov is considered a poor choice, not to be used in competitive play. That being said, if you had to use him in a semi-competitive army pulled from the Inquisition and Grey Knight Codices, how would you best use him?

I am much more of a modeler than a gamer and haven’t actually played WH40k since 2nd edition (a shocking 16 years ago!) but I’ve been building a Navigator household that counts as Inquisition/Grey Knights. The head of my household is a perfect counts-as Karamazov, and I’m starting to wonder what the best way of assembling an army around him would be. This is mostly just a theoretical exercise but don’t we all love theoretical exercises?

So some questions.

Karamazov seems pretty incoherent. He is be both rather tough (many wounds, T5, 2+ save) and extremely vulnerable (can’t embark in vehicles or buildings, no invulnerable save). He also is decent in CC and has a powerful close-range, move-and-fire multi-melta, and the extremely long-range, stationary Orbital Strike (if I read the rules correctly and relentless doesn’t apply to the OSR).

So one option is to use a henchmen squad to help him out, and focus on long-range shooting. Something like 2 plasma cannon servitors, 2 jokaero, a psyker (with divination I guess), and a crusader or two. The Jokaero could fire lascannon, combining nicely with plasma cannons and OSR strikes. Jokaero customization could lead to rending or better invulnerable saves, etc. Prescience seems like it would help with re-rolling OSR scatters, and the crusaders could LOS high AP weapons. But not only is that expensive, if I understand majority toughness rules properly, it allows him to be wounded as if he was T3, and doesn’t take advantage of his relentless master-crafted multi-melts. Another downside I think is if Karamazov wanted to fire the OSR at a friendly model the squad of henchmen would be unable to shoot at anything, right?

Am I right in thinking that’s an impressive amount of firepower, wether Karamazov has friendly units to target or not? Would divination be the best discipline on a buffing psyker? Invisibility would obviously be great but seems like a gamble.

Would he better off on his own, relying on his T5 for protection, and leaving the survivor and jokaero squad to another inquisitor (perhaps even Coteaz) to lead? This would allow for maximum flexibility and firing the OSR on friendly models without wasting other shooting, but of course leave him very vulnerable to high AP fire.

Or would he better off instead gearing up for close-range combat with a retinue of multimelta servitors and crusaders? Jokaero could also work here, firing as multi-meltas as well, or heavy flamers as needed.

And as far as I can tell, he can’t be placed on the battlements of a bastion or bunker, so the only ways fortifications could help with survivability is an Aegis defense line or Void Shield generator. I don’t really like the idea of my space-based army using barricades, but it would be fun to build a vertically oriented rocket-ship type landing craft thats counts-as a void shield generator …

Thanks!

I like where your mind is at. I'm an Inquisition player, but I have not played Karamazov either. He does seem to be a bit of an odd bird.

I'm not sure where the rules state that Relentless does not allow him to fire the Orbital Strike Relay. Each shot is either a Heavy, Ordinance, or....I forget what the Psyk-out version is. Relentless should apply unless there is something that I am missing.

1. He's pricy. 200 points is double the price of Coteaz

2. It sucks that his throne is not actually a chariot. He can fire the Multi-melta OR the OSR, but not both.

3. He is designed for close combat...sort of. Master Crafted power sword, high strength, 2+, psyk out grenades AND rad grenades AND frag grenades., but as you said, no invul, and he's a foot slogger...and initiative 4 is not great.

For long range, like you said, Jokaero, HW-Servitors, psyker, crusader 3++ meat wall, but then to move around the table, plasma servitors stop firing (relentless doesn't share), Jokaero snap shoot until you get into HF range. You waste the MM, and all the close combat goodies to be an oversized thunderfire at twice the price.

How about a Karamaz-star? Put him in the center of 6 crusaders, a ministorium priest, a psyker, and 4 DCA? You get enough AP3 to cut through most anything. You get a big enough 3++ meat wall to keep it alive. You can't be swept since he can choose to pass any morale at will. Any vehicles to hard to crack with CC, you MM or OSR on the way in...The only real flaw in it is how slow it moves. Maybe give him the Liber Hereticus and scout the Karamaz-star out mid-table to start?

Foot slogging really sucks...forget ever trying to run down some bikes or 'nids or wolves...although you drop bombs from the sky on them every turn they are not engaged with you...so there's that. They may charge on you just to stop the rain of fire.

Just because "everyone" says it sucks, doesn't mean don't try to play it...hell, I started an Inquisition army specifically BECAUSE no one else in my little tournament circle was playing them.

Good luck. Let me know what you come up with.

Interesting thoughts!

Here's a discussion of relentless and the OSR: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358817.page#2643152

Yeah, being able to fire both weapons woudl really help. I think he used to be an actual monstrous creature which would've allowed the same thing.

I hadn't thought of a Karmazovstar. I like it. I have a similar DCA, Crusader, Psyker and priest unit that I was thinking of putting in a landraider, but htey coudl easily be repurposed. My hunch is that its a bad idea to pile that many points into a single unit, but it could be pretty fun (and woudl look great on the battlefield). Unfortunately I don't think special characters can be given extra wargear, so to get the book for scouting you'd need to attach a second inquisitor. And if you're going that way why not go all out:

Karamazov
Barebones Inq w/ liber heresias and power weapon
GK Librarian w/ mastery level 3 (rolls all powers on telepathy to up chances of invisibility)
2 priests
1 psyker (divination)
3 crusaders
5 death cultists

You could end up with a scouting deathstar w/ invisbility, prescience, ability to reroll wounds and armor saves, etc. Alternatively have the librarian use santic to get Hammerhand which would be very helpful.

Or drop the liber heresias Inquisitor and go all Santic powers on the librarian (even add the relic that allows an extra power), shooting for Gate of Infinity; deepstrike as needed! Fire multi-melta on the way into assault. You could easily end up with a Vortex power too, which would be perfect for my counts-as Navigators.

Could a deathstar like that have any potential? Or would it just get avoided and blown to bits?

Karamazov wants to sit. Give him a pseudo dev squad and point his strike at squads of crusaders.

A fun use for him is to put a bunch of cheap henchmen with him behind an ADL with comms relay. Take the nemesis strike force with a unit of terminators and 2 dreadknights. I DS the termis and jump the dreadknights forward. With the run move for the termis and the large movement of the dreadknights they are usually up close very fast. This allows me to drop orbital strikes on the dreadknights when they get into combats with hordes. It can also be worthwhile to drop the lance AP1 shot when I get close to a vehicle.

I usually use Karamazov in an IG list (or my favorite is a Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade list). His leadership ability is great and IG units are much more expendable.

Karamazov, mephiston, corbulo, inquisitor with psycannon and liber heresius.
Scouts 6" first turn. Still has a majority T6 (or iron arm T9). Negates the standard weakness of the meph star which is lack of shooting. Also gets them that bit closer.

Just as inquisition - you have access to cheap fearless speedbumps. That unit of ork boyz, gaunts or blob guard getting too close? Charge the squad in/recieve the charge. If any survive, paste the offending squad with orbital fury due to the packed nature that the pile in stage causes. Or do the same with crusaders to guarantee survivors.

Having just built a counts as InqK myself, I've had a closer look at the rules, and figured the problem: he's confused.

The OSR is one use only, so once he fires that off he's wasted in a supporting/ranged squad. The rest of his gear wants him up close, in centre of the army to dole out Leadership buffs. But if you throw him forward, you're going to lose a turn of movement at some point to fire the OSR.

I am see him working well with IG where he becomes an AoE Commissar equivalent and possible CC deterrent with the traditional DCA/Crusader/Priest squad, so maybe that's one way to go, and Guard do have plenty of expendable units.

Running off that idea of a CC deterrent, though, in thinking you could almost get more use out of the OSR as a defensive threat. With Priests in IG squads, they aren't getting wiped in a turn, so whoever charges them is getting pasted with various nasty blasted from orbit. Combined with the countercharge of the DCAsaders, it could make a nice threat package, though it is expensive.

 Paradigm wrote:
Having just built a counts as InqK myself, I've had a closer look at the rules, and figured the problem: he's confused.

The OSR is one use only, so once he fires that off he's wasted in a supporting/ranged squad. The rest of his gear wants him up close, in centre of the army to dole out Leadership buffs. But if you throw him forward, you're going to lose a turn of movement at some point to fire the OSR.

I am see him working well with IG where he becomes an AoE Commissar equivalent and possible CC deterrent with the traditional DCA/Crusader/Priest squad, so maybe that's one way to go, and Guard do have plenty of expendable units.

Running off that idea of a CC deterrent, though, in thinking you could almost get more use out of the OSR as a defensive threat. With Priests in IG squads, they aren't getting wiped in a turn, so whoever charges them is getting pasted with various nasty blasted from orbit. Combined with the countercharge of the DCAsaders, it could make a nice threat package, though it is expensive.

I have the Inquisition Codex and reviewed the OSR entry. It does not state the OSR is one-use only. It appears that he can fire it in every shooting phase.

Are you sure? My copy says 'once per game, the bearer can call down an Orbital Strike in his shooting phase. This counts as firing a ranged weapon with one of the profiles below.'

Odd, as I recall the old GK one having no such limits, but that's what it says.

 Paradigm wrote:
Are you sure? My copy says 'once per game, the bearer can call down an Orbital Strike in his shooting phase. This counts as firing a ranged weapon with one of the profiles below.'

Odd, as I recall the old GK one having no such limits, but that's what it says.

ORBITAL STRIKE RELAY

It is rare for the Inquisition to fight without some form of orbital support craft. To ensure accurate orbital barrages, Inquisitors often carry an orbital strike relay to provide the fleet vessels with targeting data.

The bearer can call down an orbital strike in his Shooting phase. This counts as firing a ranged weapon with one of the profiles below. This does not prevent the Warlord and his unit from declaring a charge against the target unit that turn.

Umm. Okay, that's wacky. My version (the newest) doesn't reference one time only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My original answer was going to be 'Holding a shelf down', but now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The warlord trait one still has one use only:

3. Burner of Worlds: None can hide from this Inquisitor’s wrath, even if he must burn an entire world to root out his quarry.

Once per game, your Warlord can call down an orbital attack in his Shooting phase. This counts as firing a ranged weapon with the profile below. This does not prevent the Warlord and his unit from declaring a charge against the target unit that turn.

Orbital: If an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice, an orbital bombardment always scatters the full 2D6" – the Warlord’s Ballistic Skill makes no difference.

Well that's just weird, but if your version is the newest, we'll go with that!

 Paradigm wrote:
Well that's just weird, but if your version is the newest, we'll go with that!

Yep. Just checked the App store to see if I have the latest version and I do. No mention of once per game, so I am going with that :-)

Good to know. I still prefer the idea of having him in a more defensive role, though, as 200 points is damn expensive for just an OSR.

Well, OSR with good bubble for leadership.

 Paradigm wrote:
Good to know. I still prefer the idea of having him in a more defensive role, though, as 200 points is damn expensive for just an OSR.

Yep. Throwing down 5-6 orbital strikes a game will keep them on their toes.

He gets the three different types too. (Barrage, Lance and Psi)

 pretre wrote:
He gets the three different types too. (Barrage, Lance and Psi)

Worth 200 points now? :-)

Almost. You can also target your models and get no scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Multiple barrages still works right? you could put him in a unit that has other barrages and put his on a friendly model, then no scatter the rest on hits.

 cycluv wrote:

 pretre wrote:
He gets the three different types too. (Barrage, Lance and Psi)

Worth 200 points now? :-)

Oh, of course! In sure those 5-6 barrages will do plenty of damage, and his LD buffs will always come in handy. However, I still feel he would potentially be wasting his fairly decent cc stats just hugging the back line. I think I'll try him with 4 Crusaders, 4 DCA and maybe a Priest (320-345 points, not too bad considering the damage potential) in the middle of a Guard horde.

You could attach him to a big blob of guard or conscripts and have him tank wounds.

 Paradigm wrote:

 cycluv wrote:

 pretre wrote:
He gets the three different types too. (Barrage, Lance and Psi)

Worth 200 points now? :-)

Oh, of course! In sure those 5-6 barrages will do plenty of damage, and his LD buffs will always come in handy. However, I still feel he would potentially be wasting his fairly decent cc stats just hugging the back line. I think I'll try him with 4 Crusaders, 4 DCA and maybe a Priest (320-345 points, not too bad considering the damage potential) in the middle of a Guard horde.

He's a walker that cannot get in a transport. May be slow moving to be an offensive CC threat. Maybe backfield CC threat.

He's not really a CC threat even with the Crus, DCA, Priest, etc. He might be an unpleasant surprise for someone who deepstrikes in your backfield, but not a solid CC threat.

I kinda like the idea of sitting him on a TFC or a guard blob.

He's actually an infantry IC, not a walker, so I think attached to a squad with some Crusader 3++ he'll stick around a bit, and as he can still charge what he fires the OSR at, that unit should make a nice 1-2 counter punch unit. Certainly he's not going to be leading any army-wide charges, but he should be able to pull off a decent counter assault.

At S5 and with 4 ap3 attacks on charge, as well as rad grenades, he should be able to tally up a few kills a turn, and also do a lot for the S3 of the DCA and Crusaders.

I'd use him with IG and put im with some bullgryns for laughs. IG also gives you lots of disposable scrubs for his OSR.

Using him with marines would be funny too, put him with some chapter masters and use his no scatter barrage on a callidus infiltrating 1" next to their bet units

 Paradigm wrote:
He's actually an infantry IC, not a walker, so I think attached to a squad with some Crusader 3++ he'll stick around a bit, and as he can still charge what he fires the OSR at, that unit should make a nice 1-2 counter punch unit. Certainly he's not going to be leading any army-wide charges, but he should be able to pull off a decent counter assault.

At S5 and with 4 ap3 attacks on charge, as well as rad grenades, he should be able to tally up a few kills a turn, and also do a lot for the S3 of the DCA and Crusaders.

You are correct. He is not a walker. He just sits on a walker-throne. I was referring to his special rule "throne of judgement", where he cannot embark upon vehicles and buildings. :-~

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'd use him with IG and put im with some bullgryns for laughs. IG also gives you lots of disposable scrubs for his OSR.

Using him with marines would be funny too, put him with some chapter masters and use his no scatter barrage on a callidus infiltrating 1" next to their bet units

Why not both for good measure? Attach said chapter masters and Karamazov to a CCS with master of ordnance for good measure. It's like they're playing 40k, but you decided to play Battlefleet Gothic.

Pretty much

Once took 40 orbital strikes as my half of an apocalypse army->old daemonhunter book

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'd use him with IG and put im with some bullgryns for laughs. IG also gives you lots of disposable scrubs for his OSR.

Using him with marines would be funny too, put him with some chapter masters and use his no scatter barrage on a callidus infiltrating 1" next to their bet units

Why not both for good measure? Attach said chapter masters and Karamazov to a CCS with master of ordnance for good measure. It's like they're playing 40k, but you decided to play Battlefleet Gothic.

Best quote ever!

Exalted!

I like the idea of two Chapter Masters, one Iron Hands and one Raukaan, and then Karamazov to launch strikes at units they cannot finish off accurately. With EW, 3++, and 6+++ along with IWND, the Masters will live more than likely. It's almost foolproof but it's easily half your points without looking at troops or anything.