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Do you give your daemon princes wings?

I mean, just because they're good in the codex, do you go to great lengths to acquire a pair of wings that dont come with the box and glue them onto your model's back, potentially impairing its aesthetic?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Do you give your daemon princes wings?

I mean, just because they're good in the codex, do you go to great lengths to acquire a pair of wings that dont come with the box and glue them onto your model's back, potentially impairing its aesthetic?

Well conversions and kit bashing is part o da hobby

its honestly not that hard.

Ignores cover only matters if they actually can hurt you. An iron Arm and 3+ save takes a lot of teeth out of the wave serpents and similar vehicles.

Also if you maneuver well you should only really eat 1 turn of shooting. However once again that is down to the tournament and their terrain. If they have not provided it then there is not much you can do other than invest in your own terrain.

Diablix wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I always see threads like this where as people are saying that Ignores Cover and any army that has it, pretty much wiped Daemon Princes of Nurgle, or for that matter any model with Cover Saves mechanics, right off the board. But I honestly DO believe that people are forgetting the #1 rule about 40k as a tabletop game. Terrain Terrain Terrain. If you don't have enough of it, your games will stink and all you're doing is walking head first into a woodchipper.

You must consider tournaments, where you do not have control over it

This is a simple problem with a simple fix. Consult your TO and make SURE they are using sufficient Terrain. We dont have this problem within our area, along with our small group of friends who whole heartily agree, Terrain makes the game. Whenever we play tournaments and we see 4-5 pieces of terrain on the entire board, we simply don't enter. It's quite simple. The controlled battle of a table built around buffing shooting armies by disallowing LoS blocking Terrain is, and makes TO.s look, BAD. They get the hint rather quickly if they aren't experienced.

I love the nurgle prince and I have two of them but in a competitive tournament list i would never take a nurgle prince. reason being: if you expect to make it far you need to be ready for tau and eldar and they will not care how awesome you are at jinking. the lash prince can smash everything thats out there (when he has iron arm) and when he doesnt have iron arm, you should have other usefull stuff from biomancy. a 2+ is great but with only 4 wounds it still doesnt take much.

why dont the eldar care how awesome you are at jinking?

 Sir Arun wrote:
why dont the eldar care how awesome you are at jinking?

3+ Armor saves?

 Desubot wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
why dont the eldar care how awesome you are at jinking?

3+ Armor saves?

what has that got to do with anything? Eldar are great at low AP fire. Which makes good jink saves like for the nurgle daemon prince all the more important.

Only tau are a problem as they got low AP fire and can combine it with cover ignoring marker lights

Im thinking i miss read that somewhere.

Diablix wrote:I do think that Tzeentch is by far the best one.

First of all, you didn't consider a very important Pro of Tzeentch, that is the fact that you can take a DP as a Heavy choice with Fateweaver alone. No need for a GUO. Yes, a GUO is a solid choice, but it forces you to have two almost auto-includes (Fateweaver and GUO) and also lacks the mobility of a DP, which in a Flying Circus is really really important.

Actually I did! I didn't specifically mention Fatey, but in the Tzeentch pros I listed that the unlocks for Tzeentch DPs are both FMCs. Even a LoC is arguably better than a GUO or KoS, but I wouldn't underestimate a GUO.

Nurgle's 2+ cover is good, but it's ignored by Eldar, Imperial Guard (orders + cheap psykers) and Tau... which accidentally are the army whose shooting troubles you most.
Against tougher armies (Orks and SWs above all) it offers you no protection in close combat.

True but none of that really helps out a Tzeentch DP either. You can only Grimoire one of them. Granted you CAN Grimoire the most vulnerable one which has its merits.

Finally you are completely dependant on Iron Arm AND Endurance. Without Iron Arm you are just a S6 guy, you will wound most thing that matters on 4s (rerollable for T5 or less), while Tzeentch will wound anything bar WraithKnights or psykers with Iron Arm on 2s.
You'll just glance vehicles with AV12 on 6s, while Tzeentch can have penetrating hits on everything except Land Raiders.
Additionally, even if you get Iron Arm, you have no chance of reaching S10, which helps a lot when you have to take down Knights and Land Raiders

Yes they wound on 4s, but with ID all it takes is one. S10 is definitely a plus to Tzeentch though. Also the fact that the staff doesn't take up a Greater Reward slot. That's actually pretty huge to me when every DP is gunning for survivability from Greater Rewards.

Without Endurance you are just a T5 W4 guy with a 5+ invulnerable save. That is almost exactly the profile of 4 Plague Marines (ignoring ID weapons).... a part the fact that they cost less than one third of your daemon prince (and are already quite expensive by themselves)...

That's also true of Tzeentch DPs in a vacuum, except that Nurgle also has a 2+ jink save.

Of course, you can improve your invulnerable saves as you usually do with Tzeentch Princes, but this has a couple of cons:
- It kind of reduces the usefulness of Shrouded
- You still cannot reroll 1s. Not much of a bonus for 5++, but with 3++ it's already a pretty good boost.

Agreed on the 3++ rerolling 1s. Much more durable than you might think. The infamous 2++ rerollable is always nice too.

GoliothOnline wrote:I always see threads like this where as people are saying that Ignores Cover and any army that has it, pretty much wiped Daemon Princes of Nurgle, or for that matter any model with Cover Saves mechanics, right off the board. But I honestly DO believe that people are forgetting the #1 rule about 40k as a tabletop game. Terrain Terrain Terrain. If you don't have enough of it, your games will stink and all you're doing is walking head first into a woodchipper.

The board is the #1 thing you have to fill out before you even play a game. 5 Terrain pieces throughout the entire board basically guarantees whoever has more Dakka, wins out. I play Tau, I play Eldar, I also play CSM + Daemons. When we play, I make SURE the board is riddled with LoS blocking terrain for both me and my opponents benefit. This means there are more than 7-8 large pieces of LoS blocking terrain on the battlefield per GW brand 4x4 game board piece. There can be Ruins, Trees, Area terrain such as rivers and small rocks + Mountains. We dont sit there turn one and blast each other because we have direct line of sight to everything from our opponents lists right from the get go. Sure you might move 12" and see a unit, but you actually have to present yourself as a target as well.

I have run my Daemon Princes as both Nurgle and Tzeentch. I run Tzeentch as my main Daemon Factory List summoning Hounds and Seekers when needed while trying to maintain a safe distance from my enemies through mountains and LoS blocking Ruins. With Nurgle I do the same, however I am slowly trying to get into charge range with them. The table on which you play dictates the game.

Agreed terrain is huge. My friends and I usually play *fairly* terrain heavy, although it's been hard to convince them to go quite as dense as what I've seen at the BAO consistently and NOVA as of this year. They don't play the absolute most cutthroat Eldar and Tau lists, so I don't mind too much. It's still a pain when there's nowhere to hide something even as small as a Daemon Prince from say a Skyray who is itching to alpha strike your ass.

Why Tzeentch specifically for summoning? Seems like a Nurgle DP could do it just as well.

Sir Arun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
why dont the eldar care how awesome you are at jinking?

3+ Armor saves?

what has that got to do with anything? Eldar are great at low AP fire. Which makes good jink saves like for the nurgle daemon prince all the more important.

Only tau are a problem as they got low AP fire and can combine it with cover ignoring marker lights

Eldar are good at low AP fire but are excellent at volumes of mid S high AP fire, ad it's what most Eldar lists bank on. They don't care about jink because most of alot their dakka comes from the dreaded serpent shields which ignore cover. That and they'll just bury you in saves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good thoughts people, keep 'em comin'!

How many waves does it take to get to the center of a nurgle daemon pop?

Not as many as i'd like

 Desubot wrote:
How many waves does it take to get to the center of a nurgle daemon pop?

Assuming Scatter Laser+Serpent Shield (with an average of 4.5 shots) vs Gliding DPoN

Scatter Laser = 0.395 wounds after 2+ saves
Serpent Shield = 1.11 wounds after 3+ saves

So you only need on average 3 Serpants to kill a whole nurgle prince. This doubles if he got 4+ FNP from a reward or endurance. With Iron Arm, Scatter Laser only does 1/4 of the wounds and Serpent Shield does 2/5 of the wounds.

On a Tzeentch Prince

Scatter Laser = 0.527 wounds
Serpent Shield = 0.74 wounds

So a Tzeentch prince is somewhat more survivable then a nurgle prince against Wave Serpants as you need a 4th Serpent to average more then 4 wounds to kill a DPoT, but being more susceptible to shooting from the rest of the army makes it kind of a moot trade off

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
How many waves does it take to get to the center of a nurgle daemon pop?

3

top lel

@Astro The reason I use Tzeentch to summon is simply because I would rather my Nurgle Princes to roll 3 times on the Biomancy tree seeing as I like the maximum chance for Iron Arm and Endurance. My Tzeentch Princes also have a slightly better chance at surviving perils should they ever happen with their +3 Ld.

That's interesting. I was wondering myself if the the Tzeentch +3 ld modifier had any effect on perils (as I often run two tzeentch heralds w/ screamers to summon/buff). I just wasn't sure if it had any bearing since I'm really not much on rules lawyering. My initial instinct was yes as the Daemon of Tzeentch rules state "have a +3 modifier to leadership when casting psychic powers" but I'm not sure that perils happens specifically "when casting psychic powers." Basically, my question is does the perils happen when casting a psychic power (meaning 3+ ld comes into effect) or does perils happen immediately AFTER casting a psychic power (meaning +3 ld does not come in to effect)

Nurgle.
'coz Nurgle iz green, and green iz the win!
WAAAGH!

Factor in Iron Arm and/or Endurance on at least 2 of the daemon princes with 3 rolls each a 3+ save, and that's BEFORE rewards they will be able to quite easily shrug off wave serpents(that is assuming that many have LOS to them at any given time)

I personally would always play my DP as a Nurgle one (especially if I could get a CSM one). Seeing as most other armies have at least one MC now (eldar, daemons, chaos, tyranids, Grey Knights) or a big killy multi-wound unit or HQ, the ID from a balesword is really good (although I usually get better results with a black mace CSM DP).

but the nurgle one looks hideous so aesthetically speaking you're pretty much sledgehammered into just one kind, aka the bloated pustule riddled kind of chaos