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Two questions.


1: Can Nagash, with enough counters, summon another Nagash?

2: Can you: Use a wizard with Forbidden rod for power dice (He's paid for in your list.), use those powerdice to cast Ryze from Lore of Undeath, and summon another wizard with a Forbidden Rod and use it again?

Cant have duplicate named characters or magic items in the same army.

Hmmm i feel this is something that falls into the cracks here. Yes Nagash is unique and a special character but RAW the rule is "Special Characters are exceptional individuals but, more importantly for our army selection purposes, they are unique - each can be inclided in an army only once."

With summoning being a new thing I'd see it as sure you can have Nagash summon another nagash but you will need..... (depending on how Kandorak works out on if a character is also a monster but thats another YMDC thread) you will need 27 Raise the dead counters or 14 Raise the Dead counters if you are going the sneaky (and questionable route) of summoning a monster (which is nagash).

So Nagash CAN summon himself with enough counters but in no way practical a realistic game, or even really doable normally.

As for the items deal no clue.

No to items, they are also unique. I've played about 10 games using Nagash, most Raise the Dead Tokens I've had is 6. Once you get about 4-5 you can get a seriously filthy Vampire lord. 11 will get you Vlad if you really want filth.

So, to be clear.


Scenario 1: Forbidden Rod is a part of my list. I use it, and that wizard dies. Because my list had "Forbidden Rod" in it, I can't summon a second one on a character.

Scenario 2: I do not have a "Forbidden Rod" in my army list. I summon a character with one. Does that make Forbidden Rod part of my army? Part of my list? When that summoned character dies, can I summon another with the item since it wasn't on my army list?

Are the units summoned controlled by you or your opponent?
They are controlled by you, and part of your army.

Since you lack an exception about duplicate items and multiples of the same special character, you cannot have 2 of either, regardless of how the 2nd one came to be in your army.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Are the units summoned controlled by you or your opponent?
They are controlled by you, and part of your army.

Since you lack an exception about duplicate items and multiples of the same special character, you cannot have 2 of either, regardless of how the 2nd one came to be in your army.

-Matt

Under Control and in during your list building are two different things. Under special characters we are told "Special Characters are exceptional individuals but, more importantly for our army selection purposes, they are unique - each can be included in an army only once."

They are unique only for picking your army, not for summoning unless there is an FAQ that I have missed. You can't include more than one certain named Special Character when building your army list. As for magic items I am unsure since the wording is different then Special Characters.

Oberron wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Are the units summoned controlled by you or your opponent?
They are controlled by you, and part of your army.

Since you lack an exception about duplicate items and multiples of the same special character, you cannot have 2 of either, regardless of how the 2nd one came to be in your army.

-Matt

Under Control and in during your list building are two different things. Under special characters we are told "Special Characters are exceptional individuals but, more importantly for our army selection purposes, they are unique - each can be included in an army only once."

They are unique only for picking your army, not for summoning unless there is an FAQ that I have missed. You can't include more than one certain named Special Character when building your army list. As for magic items I am unsure since the wording is different then Special Characters.

Nagash has magic items. They cannot be duplicated.
You cannot have 2 Nagash's unless you can find permission to duplicate magic items.

That is his wargear. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at could you explain it in another way or add in some rules to get your point across? I'm unable to locate anything in the magic item section of the BrB that says you can't summon something that has magic items. You aren't summoning the items you are summoning Nagash who always has those items.

Oberron wrote:
That is his wargear. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at could you explain it in another way or add in some rules to get your point across? I'm unable to locate anything in the magic item section of the BrB that says you can't summon something that has magic items. You aren't summoning the items you are summoning Nagash who always has those items.

The rule book says you cannot duplicate magic items.
His wargear is listed as magic items. His wargear is 4 magic items, and they are specifically listed by what type if magic item it is.

The Nine Books of Nagash: Arcane Item. Nagash knows 9 spells. The first of these is Ryze, the other 8....

The same rule that prevents you from repeatedly summoning a necromancer with a dispel scroll is the same rule that prevents you from summoning more than one model with the 9 books of nagash.
Special characters may have a loophole that you're trying to exploit about only for army creation, but the restriction on magic items is more broad.
You may not duplicate magic items in an army. Summoned units are in your army.

In order to have 2 of any magic item in your army, you need to find permission to duplicate them. Because every Undead Legion character has magic items, without permission to duplicate items, you cannot summon duplicates.

Can you give a rule quote for summoned units being part of one's army because I am unable to find one. Only thing I got is "Summoning spells are a type of spell that enables the caster to place a new unit under the owning player's command onto the battlefield." nagash book pg 14. Also in a related note of duplicate choices if my army has 3 units of black knights does this mean I can never summon another unit of black knights because of "An army cannot contain more than 3 Special choices of the same type and 2 Rarechoices of the same type" pg 135 of BRB Further more there is this as part of the summoning spells pg 14 in the nagash book "Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, bust must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal." We have special permission here to be able to upgrade summoned units with ANY option listed. This means I can summon a Grave Guard unit with the magic standard Banner of the Barrows since under GraveGuard it says they can take a magic standard worth up to 50pts.

Also the rule isn't you can't duplicate magic items it is "Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules" Please find me a rules quote that states Summoned units count as part of your army.

"The same rule that prevents you from repeatedly summoning a necromancer with a dispel scroll is the same rule that prevents you from summoning more than one model with the 9 books of nagash. " What is this rule quote page and paragraph please.

Oberron wrote:
Can you give a rule quote for summoned units being part of one's army because I am unable to find one. Only thing I got is "Summoning spells are a type of spell that enables the caster to place a new unit under the owning player's command onto the battlefield." nagash book pg 14. Also in a related note of duplicate choices if my army has 3 units of black knights does this mean I can never summon another unit of black knights because of "An army cannot contain more than 3 Special choices of the same type and 2 Rarechoices of the same type" pg 135 of BRB Further more there is this as part of the summoning spells pg 14 in the nagash book "Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, bust must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal." We have special permission here to be able to upgrade summoned units with ANY option listed. This means I can summon a Grave Guard unit with the magic standard Banner of the Barrows since under GraveGuard it says they can take a magic standard worth up to 50pts.

Also the rule isn't you can't duplicate magic items it is "Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules" Please find me a rules quote that states Summoned units count as part of your army.

"The same rule that prevents you from repeatedly summoning a necromancer with a dispel scroll is the same rule that prevents you from summoning more than one model with the 9 books of nagash. " What is this rule quote page and paragraph please.

"Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules"
Is the summoned unit in your army?
The restriction isn't that you cannot have duplicate items in your army list, or during time of army creation.

Furthermore, being able to upgrade with any option isn't specific permission, it's general permission. You can buy barding, lances, a unit champion, upgrade a standard to a magical standard. You lack specific permission to break the rules for magic items.
Are you saying I can summon a single necromancer lord with 4 dispel scrolls? No, because it breaks the rules for magic items.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:


"Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules"
Is the summoned unit in your army?
The restriction isn't that you cannot have duplicate items in your army list, or during time of army creation.

Furthermore, being able to upgrade with any option isn't specific permission, it's general permission. You can buy barding, lances, a unit champion, upgrade a standard to a magical standard. You lack specific permission to break the rules for magic items.
Are you saying I can summon a single necromancer lord with 4 dispel scrolls? No, because it breaks the rules for magic items.

Yes the restriction is in your army as i have bolded, underlined, and italicised the parts that say army. As for the Single master necromancer with 4 dispel scrolls that is another rule under Balance of power pg500 "Each model can only carry one of each type of magic item"


I am still waiting for a quote that says a summoned unit counts as part of a person army. If you can prove that you can prove the Lore of Undeath is worthless since it increases one's army list points, as well as, if not summoning core, go above the 25% on special and rare choices or if one is playing an undead army and tries to summon a unit that they already have three of they can't, because all those things I just listed are rules that would be broken as well that we don't have permission to break.

Oberron wrote:

I am still waiting for a quote that says a summoned unit counts as part of a person army. If you can prove that you can prove the Lore of Undeath is worthless since it increases one's army list points, as well as, if not summoning core, go above the 25% on special and rare choices or if one is playing an undead army and tries to summon a unit that they already have three of they can't, because all those things I just listed are rules that would be broken as well that we don't have permission to break.

Find a quote that they aren't part of your army.
Find a quote that you can move, shoot, charge, and attack with units that aren't in your army.

They have to be in your army, or most of the game breaks.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
So, to be clear.


Scenario 1: Forbidden Rod is a part of my list. I use it, and that wizard dies. Because my list had "Forbidden Rod" in it, I can't summon a second one on a character.

Scenario 2: I do not have a "Forbidden Rod" in my army list. I summon a character with one. Does that make Forbidden Rod part of my army? Part of my list? When that summoned character dies, can I summon another with the item since it wasn't on my army list?

I would go with scenario 1 as being RAI. I'm not sure its supported anywhere though. This is how I've seen it most commonly ruled also.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:


Find a quote that they aren't part of your army.
Find a quote that you can move, shoot, charge, and attack with units that aren't in your army.

They have to be in your army, or most of the game breaks.

This is called burden of proof reversal and a logical fallacy. It is the same as person A "prove to me there is a god" and the only response person B has is "prove to me that there isn't a god." Does this mean you are unable to prove that summoned units count as in one's army? You made the claim that they are in one's army please provide proof, book, page, paragraph, and quote.

Oberron -

The definition of army is what allows you to perform any action with the models.

Your contention is that the summoned models are not part of your army. this means you have no permission to perform any action with them.

If you disagree, please provide a page and graph showing there is permission to perform actions with models not part of your army.

Note: this is not "proove there is a God" - you have stated you have permission to do something, we are putting you to proof that permission exists. The default is that no permission exists.

I actually agree with you, Oberon.

Hawaii has restated his position, but has nothing to prove that he is correct. Nosferatu seems to have missed the point. Of course you can perform actions with summoned models. If you couldn't, VC wouldn't have Raise Dead and such spells.

If you summon infantry, they follow the rules for infantry. If you summon cavalry, they follow the rules for cavalry. Infantry and cavalry are allowed to march, charge, flee, etc as listed for the general flow of the game. I think the spells even give us specific control in their text, "..under your control"...

The question about summoning with Nagash, because he is the first time we have had this kind of option in the game before, is if summoned units are part of army list creation. To imply so means that one could not summon certain types of units, such as artillery and special/rare choices, because of unit caps.

I think Hawaii's main reaction, and probably that of most arguments, comes from a place of sheer "Wtf! That would be broken!" - which has no place on this board. Unless someone can show where summoning a unit makes it part of your army list, I see no reason why you could not duplicate magic items carried only by summoned characters and were not in your printed list.

That does not mean I think you could have say, two summoned characters with a dispel scroll at once, as I imagine a summoned character is probably "in your army", until he is dead, at which point he isn't part of it anymore. That is a contrast to a character bought from points allotment, who was a part of your army and likely counts as such even after death, because he sits plainly within your army list.

Which also leads me to an answer for my first question: You cannot have more than one Nagash, because you cannot have duplicate magic items in your army. I also do not believe that "wargear" is exempt from counting as magical items within specific categories, because if so special characters would be immune to stuff like Arcane Unforging that specifically targets magic items.That rule would be broken by two living Nagash, even if one was summoned, as I believe a unit that is summoned is indeed part of your army, but only while it's alive, since it isn't on your list.

So you're making up a distinction between in your army, and in your army list? Page and graph please.

I agree nosferatu..........in the rulebooks it clearly states that you can only ever have 1 of any item or special character in an army. An army does include what is summoned btw. Show us where it specifically states that those rules can be ignored.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oberron -

The definition of army is what allows you to perform any action with the models.

Your contention is that the summoned models are not part of your army. this means you have no permission to perform any action with them.

If you disagree, please provide a page and graph showing there is permission to perform actions with models not part of your army.

Note: this is not "proove there is a God" - you have stated you have permission to do something, we are putting you to proof that permission exists. The default is that no permission exists.

I've already shown one who summons units control them. Nagash book pg 14 "Summoning spells are a type of spell that enables the caster to place a new unit under the owning player's command onto the battlefield."

As for what allows the summoned units to do anything BRB pg 12 The Turn 2nd paragraph "During his turn, a player can usually move and fight will(I think it means with here) all of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player's turn into four main phases: Movement, Magic, Shooting and Close combat" Next paragraph "This means you move any models you want to first, then cast spells, then shoot and finally resolve any close combats."

Also under turn summary same page "1. Movement phase Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the Movement rules on page 13 for more details of how to do this..." This goes on with magic phase shooting phase and close combat phase using the same or similar wording in the shooting phase and magic phase.

Further more to go into even more detail with such processes pg 16 BRB 2.Charge "In this sub-phase, you'll choose one of your units and declare the charge you want to make...." Next paragraph "Once the charge reaction has been resolved, you can nominate another of your units to declare a charge, and so on, until all of your charges have been declared and reacted to - then you get to make your charge rolls and resolve the charges"
Under declare charge same page (16) "The player picks one of his units and announces which enemy unit it will charge. The enemy must make its charges reaction before another charge can be declared." I can quote more but I'll be quoting a big chunk of the rulebook which is a no-no and I think I'm already on the edge of that as is. And I have already shown that the unit belongs to the player who summoned the unit by the first quote. Edit added: There is nothing in any of the turns that says the unit must be in the player's army list, just that it is their unit, and that it can be ANY unit of theirs. And I just found this tidbit under Overview of the game pg 2 "4. Deply armies: The two armies are deployed facing each other across the battlefield, ready to fight. Details on how to deploy can be found in the Fighting a Warhammer Battle chapter on page 140."

Where is my quote saying that summoned units count as being in the army? If there is no distinction between in your army, and in your army list as nosferratu questions then summoned units can't be part of the army since they are not in the army list. Unless I have misunderstood your comment then please correct me if I have. I'm on the side of there is no distinction between one's army and in their army list as the only thing I have to go on is pgs 132 Choosing your army and 134 The army list, and that is all there is for one's army.

Edit: Removing a duplicate sentence.
Edit#2: As for having multiple dispell scrolls Via summoning sure you can have as many as you want that way but you still only get 1 use from it doesn't matter how many copies you have because it only says "One use only." and not "one use only per army" Since i see this is cropping up.
Edit#3 and final(I mean it this time): I have provided many many quotes for my side of the argument but still have not seen anyone quote in the brb or the nagash book that summoned units count as part of one's army, only that people are saying that they do with no proof.

So what you're saying is a unit that is defined as your unit under your command is not in your army because it doesn't specifically say so?

Honestly you can try to pull that gak & be a total knob if you want. I'd pack up and refuse to ever play you again & every TO I know would rule against you and if you kept arguing just toss you out.

GW doesn't make super iron clad rules. You have to use your brain & common sense.

Your argument reeks of the "I don't have to pay my taxes argument".

The US Tax Code goes into an excruciating amount of detail about what is taxable, what is not, who must pay, what doesn’t count, etc. etc. etc. It says what the taxes are, how they’re calculated, and the like, it never specifically says you have to pay them. However, good luck arguing that from a prison cell.


EDIT: to clarify I'm not trying to be personally insulting. I'm saying that anyone playing a GW game needs to use common sense at some point. GW rules are not iron clad. While technically there is no 100% perfectly specific instance. It seems pretty clear GW did not intend you to be able to summon a new dispell scroll every turn. This is why limits on magic items exist, to limit them 1 per army. I would say any player trying to pull the "Summoned units arent in my army because it's not explicitly stated they are" is being a knob. And it's not im picking up my toys & leaving because you found a loop hole. It's that I do not wish to play people who look for rules loopholes & loose wording to exploit.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
So what you're saying is a unit that is defined as your unit under your command is not in your army because it doesn't specifically say so?

Honestly you can try to pull that gak & be a total knob if you want. I'd pack up and refuse to ever play you again & every TO I know would rule against you and if you kept arguing just toss you out.

GW doesn't make super iron clad rules. You have to use your brain & common sense.

Your argument reeks of the "I don't have to pay my taxes argument".

The US Tax Code goes into an excruciating amount of detail about what is taxable, what is not, who must pay, what doesn’t count, etc. etc. etc. It says what the taxes are, how they’re calculated, and the like, it never specifically says you have to pay them. However, good luck arguing that from a prison cell.

Why does it always devolve into a childish fit in which someone packs up their toys and goes home? Do you think you are getting cheated? The only real question here, before the asanine question of "Show me how you can tell your units to do anything" popped up, was whether or not a summoned character with an item prevents you from summoning another one after he dies.

So far, no one has shown you can't. I'll look at my book, but I'm pretty sure its going to be impossible to show you can as well. I have a specific line telling me I can pick anything within the points value with any option. I agree I probably can't have dupe items out at once, but after a guy dies, why shouldn't I be able to summon another? My book says I can and that item isn't on the field or in my list anymore. There's nothing anywhere that says summoned units are anything to consider after they are wiped out, period.

But rather than work through it, donkey-caves come in here and start making character judgments, requesting ridiculous burdens of proof like "Show me in the rulebook where it says Nagash's summoned units can do things." (REALLY?), and claiming that stating your position to a TO would get you banned, implying asshattery. If you aren't adding to the conversation, quit trolling.

Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Take it down a few notches, guys. Thanks.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

So far, no one has shown you can't. I'll look at my book, but I'm pretty sure its going to be impossible to show you can as well. I have a specific line telling me I can pick anything within the points value with any option. I agree I probably can't have dupe items out at once, but after a guy dies, why shouldn't I be able to summon another? My book says I can and that item isn't on the field or in my list anymore. There's nothing anywhere that says summoned units are anything to consider after they are wiped out, period.

You have 2 major points I see here. 1 I agree with and that is summoned units are nothing to be considered once they are wiped out. That I would agree with you on but

2 If your army list had started with an item or unique character and that character was to die and be removed from the game as a casulty that character and item are still part of your list. At no point is anything in your orginal list never not part of your list. When it comes to items I would say no way on bringing them back on a character even if they were lost due to a character being killed, ect. Now resurrecting a special character that died is where I could see both sides of the argument. I would say he is still part of your list but then if he is dead and comes back from ryze you still only have one.......

In general I would rule it if I was a TO
1) special characters can be resurrected once dead but you can never have more then one on the table
2) items that you began with OR summoned during the course of the game once gone by whatever reason are gone for the entire game and may not be summoned on a character. It would be considered to be part of your army until the end of the game regardless if it was summoned on a character. Summoning it on a character would only change things by not rewarding victory points for that item should it be lost by a character or unit dying.

 namiel wrote:


You have 2 major points I see here. 1 I agree with and that is summoned units are nothing to be considered once they are wiped out. That I would agree with you on but

2 If your army list had started with an item or unique character and that character was to die and be removed from the game as a casulty that character and item are still part of your list. At no point is anything in your orginal list never not part of your list. When it comes to items I would say no way on bringing them back on a character even if they were lost due to a character being killed, ect. Now resurrecting a special character that died is where I could see both sides of the argument. I would say he is still part of your list but then if he is dead and comes back from ryze you still only have one.......

In general I would rule it if I was a TO
1) special characters can be resurrected once dead but you can never have more then one on the table
2) items that you began with OR summoned during the course of the game once gone by whatever reason are gone for the entire game and may not be summoned on a character. It would be considered to be part of your army until the end of the game regardless if it was summoned on a character. Summoning it on a character would only change things by not rewarding victory points for that item should it be lost by a character or unit dying.

Now we are getting somewhere. As for "1 I agree with and that is summoned units are nothing to be considered once they are wiped out. " and "At no point is anything in your orginal list never not part of your list." Do summoned units count as part of your list? This is the biggest question for pretty much this entire argument.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I'm saying that anyone playing a GW game needs to use common sense at some point. GW rules are not iron clad. While technically there is no 100% perfectly specific instance. It seems pretty clear GW did not intend you to be able to summon a new dispell scroll every turn. This is why limits on magic items exist, to limit them 1 per army. I would say any player trying to pull the "Summoned units arent in my army because it's not explicitly stated they are" is being a knob. And it's not im picking up my toys & leaving because you found a loop hole. It's that I do not wish to play people who look for rules loopholes & loose wording to exploit.

Just because someone summoned an extra dispell scroll doesn't mean they are able to use it. They will need to find a way around the "One Use only" text which I don't think anyone will since it is a simple check of "Has a dispell scroll been used? Yes? Can't use the item 'dispell scroll' anymore." Since one use only doesn't remove the item from your list.

"I would say any player trying to pull the "Summoned units arent in my army because it's not explicitly stated they are" is being a knob." You're welcomed to your opinion but "I would say any player trying to pull the "And it's not im picking up my toys & leaving because you found a loop hole. It's that I do not wish to play people who look for rules loopholes & loose wording to exploit." it isn't loose wording, it is a lack of wording that they count as part of one's army, and if summoned units do count as part of one's army that breaks a lot more rules then saying they don't as so far them not counting as part of one's army doesn't break any rules (that I am aware of) since so far anyone's attempt to say it breaks as been clearly foiled. All it takes to end this argument is to provide a rule stating that summoned units count as part of one's army, then the game breaks.

Oberron wrote:

 namiel wrote:


You have 2 major points I see here. 1 I agree with and that is summoned units are nothing to be considered once they are wiped out. That I would agree with you on but

2 If your army list had started with an item or unique character and that character was to die and be removed from the game as a casulty that character and item are still part of your list. At no point is anything in your orginal list never not part of your list. When it comes to items I would say no way on bringing them back on a character even if they were lost due to a character being killed, ect. Now resurrecting a special character that died is where I could see both sides of the argument. I would say he is still part of your list but then if he is dead and comes back from ryze you still only have one.......

In general I would rule it if I was a TO
1) special characters can be resurrected once dead but you can never have more then one on the table
2) items that you began with OR summoned during the course of the game once gone by whatever reason are gone for the entire game and may not be summoned on a character. It would be considered to be part of your army until the end of the game regardless if it was summoned on a character. Summoning it on a character would only change things by not rewarding victory points for that item should it be lost by a character or unit dying.

Now we are getting somewhere. As for "1 I agree with and that is summoned units are nothing to be considered once they are wiped out. " and "At no point is anything in your orginal list never not part of your list." Do summoned units count as part of your list? This is the biggest question for pretty much this entire argument.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I'm saying that anyone playing a GW game needs to use common sense at some point. GW rules are not iron clad. While technically there is no 100% perfectly specific instance. It seems pretty clear GW did not intend you to be able to summon a new dispell scroll every turn. This is why limits on magic items exist, to limit them 1 per army. I would say any player trying to pull the "Summoned units arent in my army because it's not explicitly stated they are" is being a knob. And it's not im picking up my toys & leaving because you found a loop hole. It's that I do not wish to play people who look for rules loopholes & loose wording to exploit.

Just because someone summoned an extra dispell scroll doesn't mean they are able to use it. They will need to find a way around the "One Use only" text which I don't think anyone will since it is a simple check of "Has a dispell scroll been used? Yes? Can't use the item 'dispell scroll' anymore." Since one use only doesn't remove the item from your list.

"I would say any player trying to pull the "Summoned units arent in my army because it's not explicitly stated they are" is being a knob." You're welcomed to your opinion but "I would say any player trying to pull the "And it's not im picking up my toys & leaving because you found a loop hole. It's that I do not wish to play people who look for rules loopholes & loose wording to exploit." it isn't loose wording, it is a lack of wording that they count as part of one's army, and if summoned units do count as part of one's army that breaks a lot more rules then saying they don't as so far them not counting as part of one's army doesn't break any rules (that I am aware of) since so far anyone's attempt to say it breaks as been clearly foiled. All it takes to end this argument is to provide a rule stating that summoned units count as part of one's army, then the game breaks.

While a unit you control is on the table summoned or not it is part of your army thus being on your "list". The difference between summoned and what you began play with is, once a summoned unit is gone it is gone as if it were never there.

This seems most logical to me. To say that anything you control is not part of your army or does not count towards normal restrictions, ect is pushing the limits. Unless clearly stated in the brb or in the armybook that a unit is specifically allowed to break a specific restriction then no matter how that unit came into play it MUST abide by those restrictions. Permission to ignore that has to be explicitly stated and it must say exactly what restrictions it may ignore thus adhering to every other restriction that may apply.

Specific Permission: Summon a character worth X points. You may purchase any options, equipment, or magical items that character would normally be allotted.

Thus:

1. I have a summoned wizard with the Great McGuffin.

2. He died.

3. I summon another wizard. I look around the table and check to make sure... lo and behold, there are no characters I control holding the Great McGuffin....

Up to this point, 0 controversy.

I don't see why the summoned and now destroyed Great McGuffin still counts against me. It was never part of my army list and since the unit that it was in was summoned and destroyed, I think I would be fine summoning another character holding a Great McGuffin.

And keep in mind, this doesn't break the dupe magic items rule, which states you cannot have more than 1 copy of an item in your army. Since the other died, its not in your army anymore, nor was it purchased during the "Selecting your army" portion of the game.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Specific Permission: Summon a character worth X points. You may purchase any options, equipment, or magical items that character would normally be allotted.

Thus:

1. I have a summoned wizard with the Great McGuffin.

2. He died.

3. I summon another wizard. I look around the table and check to make sure... lo and behold, there are no characters I control holding the Great McGuffin....

Up to this point, 0 controversy.

I don't see why the summoned and now destroyed Great McGuffin still counts against me. It was never part of my army list and since the unit that it was in was summoned and destroyed, I think I would be fine summoning another character holding a Great McGuffin.

And keep in mind, this doesn't break the dupe magic items rule, which states you cannot have more than 1 copy of an item in your army. Since the other died, its not in your army anymore, nor was it purchased during the "Selecting your army" portion of the game.

Single magic items are exactly that, singular. Once youve had it, youve had it. Just because that character died doesnt mean that it can magically reappear again. You had the item, you lost it, its gone. It is not a character that can be resurrected. This is my opinion and how I see it.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Specific Permission: Summon a character worth X points. You may purchase any options, equipment, or magical items that character would normally be allotted.

Thus:

1. I have a summoned wizard with the Great McGuffin.

2. He died.

3. I summon another wizard. I look around the table and check to make sure... lo and behold, there are no characters I control holding the Great McGuffin....

Up to this point, 0 controversy.

I don't see why the summoned and now destroyed Great McGuffin still counts against me. It was never part of my army list and since the unit that it was in was summoned and destroyed, I think I would be fine summoning another character holding a Great McGuffin.

And keep in mind, this doesn't break the dupe magic items rule, which states you cannot have more than 1 copy of an item in your army. Since the other died, its not in your army anymore, nor was it purchased during the "Selecting your army" portion of the game.

When he dies, does the Great McGuffin disappear from your army list?