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Canadian prices.

The rules alone are $70, then my Guard codex is $60, for $130 total. The rules for WM/H are 29.99, and faction book is the same, only my understanding is that's entirely optional as the rules come with the units.

Which would put it at a $100 difference, at the least. When supplements, dataslates and allies are thrown in, things get out hand pretty quickly.

You forgot to add all the extra daemons for Summoning in that Daemon list. So add probably another $200-300 to that price tag. Beyond that you took a very cheap (without summoning) 40k list and just picked a random WMH list

Also the big difference would be one of those lists is enough to actually play the game.

Lets look at some other top Lists

OrdoSean from 11th company
Flyrant - $53.75
Flyrant - 53.75
8 lictors- 8x24.75 =198
Death Leaper - 24.75
15 Genestealers 30 x 2= 60
3 Mawlocs 3x57.75 = 173.25
14 Sporemines 24.75 x 2
3 Ripper swarms 3x 14 = 42
Baston = 41.25

SO that 1850 list totals at $516.25. Probably a bit cheaper if you can make mines and rippers with bitz from other sprues.

What about the Pacific rim list

3 i Knigts = $420
2 Riptides = $170


SO with no troops and no HQ we are looking at $590

What about AM lists running squadrons of Wyverns and Blobs.

1 squadron of 3 Wyverns is $168

What about Serpents + wraithknights

Farseer $20
25 Dire Avengers = $175
5 Serpents = $222.50
3 Wraithknights= $345


Comes to $762.50.

The general dollar difference is that for 40k 1500 is really the lowest level that seems to get any play. So to get to that you are looking at a decent amount of money, warmachine functions for less.

Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

The WMH faction-specific books provide fluff, art, and the rules for models. However, all of the WMH models come packaged with the rules already. The book isn't necessary to play the game (it is helpful though).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You need to go to just the 1-List version of WMH and use that cost, rather than this combined 2-list thing if your'e trying to create consistent examples, otherwise you're artificially inflating the WMH price by a noticeable margin.

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

 Blacksails wrote:
Canadian prices.

The rules alone are $70, then my Guard codex is $60, for $130 total. The rules for WM/H are 29.99, and faction book is the same, only my understanding is that's entirely optional as the rules come with the units.

Which would put it at a $100 difference, at the least. When supplements, dataslates and allies are thrown in, things get out hand pretty quickly.

All that I am doing is taking a Tournament list for Warmachine vs a Tournament list for 40k. I am not saying that you are going to collect every army out there.

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

And I'm saying the bare minimum rules are a factor in those costs, which amounts to a minimum $100 difference, roughly.

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

No I saw them. Your first one was cheaper.

Incognito15 wrote:


2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.

No, you don't. There are tournaments and leagues that only require 1 playable list.

In Canadian prices, the difference is close to $100, as I explained. Every new codex is $60, and the rulebook sold alone is $70. Using the old Necron book is disengenious.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

No I saw them. Your first one was cheaper. So thats 3 cheaper 3 more.

 deviantduck wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
You didn't add the more than $100 in rulebooks to the GW list while the WM books are free or $25 abouts if you want the fluff.

Invalid for his comparison. But, a valid point if you want to view it from a jumping into the game perspective. You could also factor in accessories, bags, dice, etc. However, I don't think that was the original intention.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, outside of a tournament, I never play 50pt games (others might).

Invalid. He's purely comparing 1850 point 40k tourney list to a 50 point warmahordes tourney list. So... I normally play 2000 point 40k games, and you normally play 30 point warmahordes. Irrelevant to his original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, cheaper entry cost for WM and you can build over time.

Invalid. 40k also offers kill team which you can easily play with a single squad of models. Both games offer entry points and growth opportunities. Not pertinent to the original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Rules are tighter, models not as nice in some cases but WM is more fun to me because I don't have to look through 20 supplements whenever I play someone and argue over poorly written rules.

Invalid. Subjective. Subjective, and Negatively Subjective. I can't remember the last 40k game I played where I got in a rules argument that wasn't settled in 10 seconds and at worst case with a die roll.

All your bases are belong to me? lol. Dude, relax, we're talking about games here not trying to settle the national debt wherein arguments need to be valid or "invalid". I expressed an opinion, you obviously don't agree; I was not inferring my opinion was the gospel of angels or written in magic stone blocks.

1. Sure...ok. Subjective conversation is subjective. The cost of entry into a game helps determine who even picks the game up much less buys a sizable force. I can go out and plunk $500 or $600 down on a 2000 point army but most people buy over time; we'll get to that below in your killzone discussion.

2. Pts values are entirely relevant in that the price of armies is completely determined by how many models you need to play. If you're not a tournament player, both of the lists presented are irrelevant.

3. Kill team is not a "normal" 40k game. Sure, it's a variant that is part of an additional datalsate that you can purchase but is not included in the core rules. Let's tack more money into the equation unless you're like the OP and readily admit to breaking the law for your rules purchases. I fail to see how kill team is relevant to the discussion as it is not part of the core rules set whereas WM is scalable and designed to be such.

4. Kudos to you. I prefer a rules set wherein I simply don't have to have an interpretative discussion or "roll off". I prefer simply enjoying the game and the rare nerd-time I am able to squeeze out of my daily routine. Other have more ample hobby time and seem to enjoy the by-play of lengthy rules discussions (if it takes 10 minutes to arrive at what the blind monkey who banged out the rules meant, that's 10 minutes of buzzkill).

Cheers.

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.

No, you don't. There are tournaments and leagues that only require 1 playable list.

In Canadian prices, the difference is close to $100, as I explained. Every new codex is $60, and the rulebook sold alone is $70. Using the old Necron book is disengenious.

Why is the Necron codex not legal?

I dont live in Canada so my prices are accurate.

And I don't live in the states so mine are too.

The Necron book isn't illegal, its just disingenuous to use as an example of cost difference. You and I both know what the cost of the new hardcover books are, which represents the majority of armies. If you want to be fair, I'd use the cost of rules for most armies and what they will eventually become, which up here in Canuckistan, is $60.

and one $200 + dollars more, the daemons are not really cheaper when summoning is accounted for either, and you still don't account for rules which automatically make all 40k lists more expensive. Also as stated not all Warmachine events are 2 list format.

The Necron book is one of the few remaining soft-cover books. Its price will soon be adjusted to $50 to be consistent with all other hardcovers. Also, Blacksails is Canadian so just be aware that they're may be pricing differences in conversation.

And shipping is different too. There are 100 variables but why bring them all up.

Dont know why you are harping about the Necron codex I posted the price but used the hardcover as my example.

Regardles, the price difference is significant; to the degree that you can buy a playable force and army in another system for the price difference.

Breng77 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

Or you can get Dark Vengeance for $100, which has two (albeit kinda low grade for power) armies at about 1700 points of models, RULESET, templates and some dice.

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Its cheaper to start war machine as well you need to buy is $50 battle box and $8 war room app with your factions deck and a $20ish minirulebook. From there, another $50ish will get you up to 25 points which is a perfectly viable size game and you can grow slowly from there.

In the long run, the costs even out. But 40k requires a large initial investment in a minimum of 2 rulebooks plus several hundred in models to have even a basic 1500 point list, the level where 40k starts functioning. War machine functions just fine between 15 and 100 points.

Incognito15 wrote:
And shipping is different too. There are 100 variables but why bring them all up.

Dont know why you are harping about the Necron codex I posted the price but used the hardcover as my example.

I'm not harping, I was just making sure we were all on the same page about the pricing. I did see you were going off the hardcover pricing and as such priced the 40k rules as $108, while pricing the WMH rules as $30. I also made sure to make mention of the supplements that may be necessary for competitive play with some of these 40k armies (there is not a comparable additional rules cost with WMH).

Well, hang on about them rules.

All you need is one codex plus the paperback mini rulebook, which is either free with Stormclaw or Dark Vengeance, or you can get cheap (or free) from someone in your gaming group. Or Ebay, I suppose. The paperback mini is EXACTLY the same as the big one.

If you're really cheap about it, photocopy the relevant list pages from a friend. Photocopying pages out of a book for personal use is actually legal in North America, and almost every other part of the world. It's surprisingly few pages that you will need, unless you play Space Marines. Ironically, I own almost every 40k hardcover, but for play purposes, I have all of the list pages photocopied and put into one binder. Other than the first time I read through the hardcovers, they stay on a shelf.

Second, DV and Stormclaw are both very good value anyways. No, neither is a complete or optimal force. But it's fun to get into the game with, and in the case of Stormclaw, the models are highly useful.

If you can get someone to take the half of either box you don't need, that's $50 - $70 for a book plus a bunch of models. The Stormclaw models are even fully configurable.

HOWEVER:

The and/but part -- Warmahordes is WAY WAY more forgiving in terms of someone who doesn't know what they're doing, buying stuff, and being able to use it. You buy the wrong stuff in 40k, and everyone does it, and the fix is to buy more stuff. And, if the people you want to play with use monstrous and garguantuan models, flyers or fortifications you better have a way of dealing with it.

Using second hand, discounts, or copying applies equally to both games.

Doesn't matter, Dark Vengance is not playable in a standard point level 40k game, the armies in the set are not even balanced. You cannot take Dark Vengance to a tournament, and would need to spend several hundred $ to get it to a point where you were able in most cases. I'm not arguing $ per model. If we go that route 40k is not a bad deal, the issue is that you need far more models to play the game in general.

Breng77 wrote:
Doesn't matter, Dark Vengance is not playable in a standard point level 40k game, the armies in the set are not even balanced. You cannot take Dark Vengance to a tournament, and would need to spend several hundred $ to get it to a point where you were able in most cases. I'm not arguing $ per model. If we go that route 40k is not a bad deal, the issue is that you need far more models to play the game in general.

Stormclaw gives you better value if you want to build a normal army. However, DV is an exceptional *value* if someone will take the other half of the box, and you need a rulebook. You can buy it for less than $100 from discounters here in Canada (I got one for about $85 USD), which includes plenty of useful models, and a rulebook that's arguably worth $30 or so, and you get some templates, too. If you split the cost with someone DV is the price of 2 large pizzas delivered from a good pizza place.

Ok fine, this is just proof positive that pizza is overpriced now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
Using second hand, discounts, or copying applies equally to both games.

Yes it does, but it has a much smaller impact on Warmahordes for all the legitimate reasons stated. Photocopying is also more "important" in 40k, because there are more than a dozen books, many of which you need only a tiny number of pages from -- assuming you want the stats and special abilities of every unit an opponent can field and their possible specials.

Incognito15 wrote:
So Warmachine is not cheaper. Whats everyone smoking?

when you ragequite and shred up your GW rule books into a doobie and smoke it, it gets you so high that higer prices = lower prices...

price per model higher in WMH? irrelevant!

price per full army higher in WMH? irrelevant!


I mean, you dont even need 1850 pts to play 40k... 500 pts is more then enough to play, but 50 pts is basically mandatory for WMH

plus, 40k makes babies crawl all over your ceiling too

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Kind of irrelevant from a playability standpoint. The cost-per-model is going to be dependent on how many models you need to play a game

A single BSS costs me $80US, plus whatever I need for alternate weapon options, so let's say $82 per BSS.

I can't play a standard game of 40K with just 1 squad of Sisters.

That's ~$8 a model.

I chose another WHM box-of-10 models from a random faction for comparison:

Warmachine: Protectorate - Temple Flameguard Unit Box

... it's normally $49.99, so $4.99 a model, and you can field up to 3 units of these per Warcaster, for a total amount of ~$150US.

I need to field at *least* 3 BSS to have tactical viability in 40K. That's $240 right there, and that's just basic troops!

WHM armies are almost universally smaller than a 40k army, but even if they are not (for sake of argument), this WHM army is going to be roughly half the cost of my Sisters army.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

Or you can get Dark Vengeance for $100, which has two (albeit kinda low grade for power) armies at about 1700 points of models, RULESET, templates and some dice.

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

WM starter kit has two pretty decent exactly balanced against each other armies of 19 pts apiece (equivalent to 1000 pts in 40k. Standard games are 30pts, tournies usually run 40) along with rules, dice, measuring tape, counters, and unit cards for 100 bucks.