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That's great, but its largely useless for the purpose of this thread.

If we're going to factor in acquiring rules for free in whatever method, than it would stand equally that we could acquire miniatures for free. At that point, the whole exercise becomes useless.

Hence why retail prices only are used for fair comparison.

The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

The whole premise is flawed when you try to compare 1 40k list to 2 WMH lists and cherry pick the lists. With 40k, most 1850 tournament lists are going to use allies. You're at $60 for the rulebook, $100 for 2 Codex books, and maybe another $30-50 if you're using supplements or data slate characters. As a minimum let's just say $160 for rules. The armies that don't use allies are usually chaos daemons which require $200-300 of summon models and nids which are more expensive as an army anyway. WMH only costs $30 for the rules and you don't need army books. 40k starts at a $130 price disadvantage just based on rules. Before I got into WMH I priced several 50 point tournament lists for each faction. The prices were between $300 and $450 for every list I priced. I thought about starting another 40k army so I priced 1850 tournament lists for several races, they were between $500-700. I don't have the lists handy to copy paste but here's the breakdown I saw.

40k 1850 points
Rules - $130-200
Army - $500-700
Total - $630-900

WMH 50 points
Rules - $30
Army - $300-450
Total - $330-480

Judging by the breakdowns every else has done of actual lists with model prices, I think this is pretty accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think discounts should be applicable here. GWs horrible trade terms and the fact that a lot of their products are direct only are the reason it's difficult to get a good discount on GW products. PP is smart and would rather sell stuff at a lower margin than have it sit on a shelf while their customers go buy competitor's products. I can get anything in the PP catalog at 30% off and free shipping. I can't do the same with GW. The best discount I've seen is 25% and that's only on the 50% of the product line that isn't direct only. If you want Tigurius or a rune priest in TDA, you're paying full retail. I could probably buy 2 WMH 50 point lists with the Mk2 rules for cheaper than just the models for an 1850 40k list.

Blacksails wrote:That's great, but its largely useless for the purpose of this thread.

If we're going to factor in acquiring rules for free in whatever method, than it would stand equally that we could acquire miniatures for free. At that point, the whole exercise becomes useless.

Hence why retail prices only are used for fair comparison.

You're right to a point. The reality is that most players own some rulebooks, but not all of them in 40k, and copies of some materials are pretty common. I think until the mini rulebooks became common, most people at least bought the core rules and 1 codex or two.

It is also factual that bargain hunters can get bigger discounts on GW products than PP products, because GW products have higher gross profit dollars. But all that is neither here nor there. People who play 40k for long enough eventually have a higher median spend than WMH.

WayneTheGame wrote:The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

Yeah, well that's a lost cause. 40k, love it or hate it, is a bigger money sink. WMH thou, is ALSO a large money sink -- just not quite as large.

I don't see that as a problem, frankly, as both would be boring if there was nothing ever new.

Toofast wrote:Also, I think discounts should be applicable here. GWs horrible trade terms and the fact that a lot of their products are direct only are the reason it's difficult to get a good discount on GW products. PP is smart and would rather sell stuff at a lower margin than have it sit on a shelf while their customers go buy competitor's products. I can get anything in the PP catalog at 30% off and free shipping. I can't do the same with GW. The best discount I've seen is 25% and that's only on the 50% of the product line that isn't direct only. If you want Tigurius or a rune priest in TDA, you're paying full retail. I could probably buy 2 WMH 50 point lists with the Mk2 rules for cheaper than just the models for an 1850 40k list.

I get 25% off of all my GW product (no exclusions) and can snag another 5% if I buy a lot of stuff at once (like, $500 will get me that, no problem), or go on a customer appreciation day.

I can get even higher than 30% if I buy some stuff that is finecast that my FLGS doesn't really want to stock.

The margins on both GW and PP products are very good. My FLGS actually leaves out the GW trade order form, so you can see their cost (at least, before any discounts they get).

 Accolade wrote:
Incognito, I'd put something in your original title to make sure your focus is on the stipulation of tournament size armies of 40k vs. WMH, since conversation always trends towards model/dollar comparisons.

The sole comparison of tournament armies is not really fair, since usually one collects much more models and units than those who are taken in a competitive list.
Generally, in WMH it is sufficient to have one unit or Warjack per faction. This does not necessarily hold for solos but those are usually rather cheap.
In 40k the situation is generally much different, where units are often spammed like Serpents or Night Scythes.
This causes a severe cost difference between the systems.

About half the factions often run duplicates of Jacks, Beasts, and certain Solos. Units much more rarely. But jacks, beasts, and solos are the cheapest model type in Warmachine.

In the long run, a complete warmachine collection will easily be as expensive as a 40k collection(single faction of course) but within the system it will be much more flexible. With the warmachine collection you could expect to run just about any of the possible combinations. With 40k, you'd probably only have 3-5 possible lists you'd be able to run(competitively speaking)

You can get the same bargains on PP as you can on GW. Amazon, Miniature Market, etc... regularly have 30% off on everything, WMH and GW products. GW would actually have less access to discounts, we all know GW's extremely restrictive policies on sales and discounts for physical stores.

WayneTheGame wrote:
The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

A five finger discount could apply to models, codexs, rules, etc. I could rob a bank to pay for anything but, it is still theft. Shop smartly and you can get anything. I know it's a few pages late but, telling the community they are smoking something is appallingly rude and this thread is biased. If you are to update this, please put a chart for each army in each game, and compare them fairly.

Anyways, this thread is a mess, and it seems like it was begging for flame wars. Great b8t m8, 11/10.

As an ammendum to the OP, lets also factor in i have bought the 530 dollars worth of armies he mentions.

I will have:
Casters: Krueger 2, Morv2
warbeasts: 2x warpwolf stalkers, ghetorix, gorax
Units: full tharn ravager unit+UA, skinwalkers+UA, 2x stones, bloodtrackers+UA (nuala), Druids+UA
Solos: 2x gallows groves, blackclad wayfarer

Right there, its 85 points worth of stuff, if my math is right in my "sideboard". Right now, i've got all the piece there to field a solid Kromac list, Baldur list, or epic Kaya list that would perform well at any tournament you care to name. If i were to purchase Kromac, epic Kaya, annd Baldur, i could run 2-5 lists at 50points just from that basic sideboard. throw in some shrimps and wolf riders and i've got everything i'd ever need to run any amount of competitive circle builds.

So call it 600 dollars for half a dozen armies worth of different playstyles (control/denial, attrition, alphastrike), different abilities and different synnergies. Seems my money goes further in WMH when you look at it that way OP.

The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

The logic being used to defend 40k is far and away more ridiculous. Look at even just the OP 'let's compare this one cheap 40k tournament army (without factoring price for models that you'd need for summoning) against these two hordes armies which are at the expensive end for a two list format (most two list armies have more crossover than those. One of the great things about WMH is you can buy a 6-7 quid caster and change how your whole army plays, so you can get a large crossover in two lists)'. Oh but what about rules on top of that? 'That's okay you can steal the rules!' Seriously.

Yes, WMH is still expensive. But it's no where near as expensive as 40k to buy in, that's the important thing. Two people can buy a Battlebox for £26 each, and a couple of solos so... £40, and they have a 15pt army. There's no way £40 will get you a 500pt 40k army. Also, OP was ignoring anything like guard, Nid swarms, anything that might have cost more than WMH which I think pretty clearly shows his bias...

Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

And I think this thread highlights the massive difference in the concept of value for money, and price for minatures , that many people trying to defend GW trot out.

As a game system WHFB/40k are the worst value for money, out of all the top 10 table top war games currently available.
And as players think about the whole package, including rules and play style options, tactics, etc, they see better value for money in other game systems.

This does not mean people do not get value from WHFB/40k.
The art and background can inspire people.
And with putting in effort effort to sort out 'issues' with the rules players can enjoy playing their version of the rules .

But that OBJECTIVE comparison to the quality of rules and depth of game play options.Shows WHFB/40k to be lacking compared to other systems.

So collectors , often fail to see the value for money difference that game players see, perhaps?

 Steve steveson wrote:
The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

To be fair, the op was just as guilty of twisting logic Steve- picking and choosing lists, ignoring the book costs etc. And fwiw, folks have put up twin50pt WMH lists costing in the range of two to three hundred dollars. It's a lot less than the op claims?

Now, for what it's worth, repeat this here.

it's generally accepted that WMH is cheaper to start. The buy-in is a lot less, with far less 'front loading' in terms of what you need to spend to get playing.

What people are saying here is that a list for a standard sized game (ie 50pts) will set you back a lot less than for its equivelant in 40k. Then again, there are exceptions. There are expensive WMH lists, and cheap 40k ones. There are cheap WMH ones, and expensive 40k ones.

It's also easier to expand in WMH meaningfully. Change a caster, and your whole army plays differently. You don't need to buy a new army, just a piece or two. Money goes further. More bang fir your buck. Better value. Arguably.

Now I personally don't sell WMH to new gamers on the 'but it's cheaper!' Card. Individual lists might be, but on the whole, I've probably spent more on my WMH 'sideboard' over the last four to five years than I ever have on 40k. It's cheaper to get into yes, it's cheaper to expand your stuff, but at the end of the day, it can be very pricey. But on the oip's narrowly defined topic of twin 50pt lists for tourneys, no, warmAchine can be quite a bit cheaper.

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Also because WMH figures tend to come complete, you feel like you're getting more money. I feel a lot better paying $50 for a box for WMH than I do for 40k. And that's before you get into stuff like clear rules vs. talk with your opponent over how you want to handle things, the constant stream of releases that sell out within hours, etc.

Incognito15 wrote:
I knew it would happen. I chose 2 50pt lists because that is what Warmachine tournaments are played at just like I chose an 1850pt list for 40k because that is the standard tournament. Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Also the first CD list has $200 to spend on summoning units.

Well if were arguing that you can get rulws for free, Im arguing I never buy warmachine at less than a 30% discount (as is the case with many warmachine players), while the best youll see on 40k is 20%. Also, iron manning a tournament is an option, i.e. using 1 list, so its unnecessary and in fact incorrect to use 2 lists to justify your argument, especiqlly ae you can often build a second list using the majority of the same models from your first.

And I mean if you really want to argue, youre getting 2 armies for warmachine vs 1 for 40k, so its not apples to apples. Vs the Necron list you posted, youre getting 2 warmachine armies for less than the price of a single necron army.

Invalid. 40k also offers kill team which you can easily play with a single squad of models. Both games offer entry points and growth opportunities. Not pertinent to the original topic.

There havent been rules for kill team since 4th edition. Wait, they may have released a kill team supplement a few years ago... but if they did its out of print.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

No you dont, I iron manned my first few warmachine tournaments (despite owning enough to run probably 12 different lists without duplicating model) and did reasonably well.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

That is indeed the theme of the OP and his and his supporters follow up posts.

In any case, simply put, WMH is simply a better, more enjoyable, and more interesting ruleset.

Davor wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Just jumping in to point out that Warmachine army books are optional. You can buy the card deck for half the price of a book as I did recently when I considered collecting Cryx. Or if you use the forums to get an idea of what unit does what, you can just buy the models and get the stat cards with them, not needing to buy any books (or DLC rules that were cut from the codex), at all.

Actually if you use the War room App for $6 you get all your armies "crunch" including updates as they add new stuff. For $60 you get ALL the armies rules. War room comes with a list building tool.

What is War Room Uncle Fester?

Davor wrote:
What is War Room Uncle Fester?

It's an app. Please have a look!

Specifically, its an app where you can purchase digital copies of each faction's current cards. It updates whenever a new card for a faction is released so you'll always be up to date.

It also has list building and damage tracking features.

The app is free, but the individual faction decks are roughly $8 each. Or you can buy them in bundles for a discount. You do get some cards for free with the app itself, as well as its rule reference database.

The app is available for Android and Apple products.

Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Actually it works exactly that way near me, I don't know anyone that owns one unit of each type in their faction, I know plenty of people that build a specific army list. Then often later buying a different army (not even always in the same faction).

Davor wrote:Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

The cards come with the models. But the books (there is one for each fiction) are nice to own.

Breng77 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Actually it works exactly that way near me, I don't know anyone that owns one unit of each type in their faction, I know plenty of people that build a specific army list. Then often later buying a different army (not even always in the same faction).

Yeah, I don't know anyone that's gone and only bought one of each type. I don't know many people who haven't bought onto a second faction at some point too.

Davor wrote:
Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

Each model/unit comes with its own card, which is what you will also get on the app. The difference being you can look at stuff you don't own yet.

The 2010 Faction deck isn't a complete set. It only has the cards which had been released as of 2010(when Mk2 came out), its purpose was so everyone at the time the new edition came out could buy it and get the Mk2 versions of all their current stuff. Warroom has all the cards that currently exist, and ever will exist.

Don't buy the faction books unless you want to read the fluff. The only book you need to purchase would be the rulebook, Prime mk2 or Primal mk2(Warmachine and Hordes respectively)

If you buy one rulebook, no need to buy the other one. 95% identical content. You can make do with the free quickstart rules for the opposite magic system if you need to know something.

Davor, if you download the app and purchase the in-app cards, thats all you need to play. The app includes a list building function as well as damage tracking to make games a bit easier on you. FYI, there is a bundle for approx 60 usd that gives you access to every card for every faction, as well as for new factions ad they are released.

To put it in the perspective of 40k vs wmhds, its the equivalent of GW selling you a program for about 80 bucks that contains all the rules needed to play every faction in warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy, including supplemental books, data slates, white dwarf releases, etc. which will update with the errata releases as well as the releases of new factions or what have you.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Davor, if you download the app and purchase the in-app cards, thats all you need to play. The app includes a list building function as well as damage tracking to make games a bit easier on you. FYI, there is a bundle for approx 60 usd that gives you access to every card for every faction, as well as for new factions ad they are released.

To put it in the perspective of 40k vs wmhds, its the equivalent of GW selling you a program for about 80 bucks that contains all the rules needed to play every faction in warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy, including supplemental books, data slates, white dwarf releases, etc. which will update with the errata releases as well as the releases of new factions or what have you.

This is where GW is largely lagging behind.
The prizes of rule book and codex provide a hurdle to get into 40k or Fantasy.
Not sure if they wanna change it in the near future.

I love these comparisons between GW and PPs pricing. I understand that they are the two top alongside x wing for the most popular game and that these kind of comparisons are perfectly valid because of it but it still strikes me funny.
They aren't the only games out there.

I won't get caught up in detailed breakdowns, I consider warmahordes a lot cheaper and nothing I've seen here is likely to convince me otherwise, but I will say this.
I've bought a full 300 point tourney army for infinity, and all the rules needed to play it, for less than I would have to pay for the new slim 40k rulebook and a single codex. GWs prices are INSANE and, speaking as an Australian, there is no defending them.