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 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.

Both 40k and WFB suffer from extreme bloat in the product range and you'd want to introduce even more separate entities?

Yeah, 12 additional historical/fantasy analogs supported the way that people expect armies to be supported would have been suicide. There's a reason companies don't listen to the internet sometimes.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
I think GW have done very little with the WH setting-having been in since 2nd edition was first released i`m amazed at what they haven`t done over the years. They started with a great spread of races and have constantly contracted them whilst needlessly increasing troop types (most of the troop variants that have popped up over the years could have been represented by equipment and or mount choices without a slew of special rules). Where are the background and armies for Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Steppes, Amazons, Pygmies,Tilea, Kislev, Estalia, Separate lizards and Slann and Norse ?
If i had my way all of these would have been fully explored over the years and the whole setting would have been more "ancients" with magical artifacts replacing the gunpowder technology.

Both 40k and WFB suffer from extreme bloat in the product range and you'd want to introduce even more separate entities?

Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

jprp wrote:
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?

I agree with everyone on this topic so far.

I always said there should be
1 lord choice and you pick if you want a sword a bow or a axe
1 Troops choice you make them range or close combat
2 rare choices a cannon or something really unique like a guy with a flail
and 1 special choice a guy on a horse or wearing armour.

So I agree with whats been said add more armys while cutting more Races. Who wouldn't want arby or amazons like a woman with a sword or a guy in a tophat.... a whole army just like empire but with those features would really add alot.

I am loving end times so far tho I missed my gors/daemons and warriors fighting together for the dark gods. Also lets face it tombkings don't make sence..... in the book they wrapped people up poped organs out and then existed then nagash came along and found out how to raise the dead. Now all of a sudden the tomb king witches/sorcs can raise dead that they never learnt how to do?

OgreChubbs wrote:
I agree with everyone on this topic so far.

I always said there should be
1 lord choice and you pick if you want a sword a bow or a axe
1 Troops choice you make them range or close combat
2 rare choices a cannon or something really unique like a guy with a flail
and 1 special choice a guy on a horse or wearing armour.

So I agree with whats been said add more armys while cutting more Races. Who wouldn't want arby or amazons like a woman with a sword or a guy in a tophat.... a whole army just like empire but with those features would really add alot.

I...can't tell if you are joking or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my end, what GW are currently doing with 40k has brought me back in to the game.
I'm definitely watching the End Times stuff with interest to see where WHFB ends up.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?

I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.

jprp wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?

I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.

That is like the worse business view ever. So they sell you one book and make a unit that if you buy you can use"and will" in every game for years to come... They would be out of business in year 2.

OgreChubbs wrote:

jprp wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?

I don't want them to sell me a new army book every few years period.
I want a decent book and the scope within the basic rules to create my own unique center pieces for friendly games like in early versions of the rules, i don't want to paint a unit only to find it drops out of the next book or needs all the base sizes changing every few years.

That is like the worse business view ever. So they sell you one book and make a unit that if you buy you can use"and will" in every game for years to come... They would be out of business in year 2.

No because players buy more different armies.

I strongly disagree, many races and units would lose so much character if you slimmed it down to the basics. Swordmasters of Hoeth became ''Elf with Great Weapon'' or Waywatchers became ''Scout Elf with Bow''. That is LotR style play and it bores me, armies have less character and it is almost impossible to theme an army. If you want realistic battles between pikemen and muskets i am sure their are different games to play, but Warhammer *Fantasy* Battles doesn't fit the bill.

"Man, playing this Human with Beard and Sword army is getting boring!"

"Why not try playing Human with Ponytail and Spear army!"

"Wow, that does sound pretty great. But does it have more than 3 model types? That would make me nervous."

"No! You can give them Slings instead of Spears and one guy can have a Bigger Hat."

"That sounds amazing! I'll put my Human with Beard and Sword army on e-bay right now!"

 plastictrees wrote:
"Man, playing this Human with Beard and Sword army is getting boring!"

"Why not try playing Human with Ponytail and Spear army!"

"Wow, that does sound pretty great. But does it have more than 3 model types? That would make me nervous."

"No! You can give them Slings instead of Spears and one guy can have a Bigger Hat."

"That sounds amazing! I'll put my Human with Beard and Sword army on e-bay right now!"

lol my point exactly on the people who want araby/amazons/cathy and all the other humans with new weapon and shirts.

I think the problem is with GW, not their design space per se. Some games probably could handle 10-12 races/factions with some good variety in their troops and such. GW is just not them, because they are not good at writing rules. (In the sense of "Wow, this company comes out with some great rules!")

If GW really did just want to produce a lot of models, they might be better off making a very generic game where you can build pretty much whatever you want, and sell you kits to build pretty much whatever you want. Some people want women with swords and I dunno, lizard riders? Cool, we make kits for that, and use these rules. Other people want samurai riding wolves? Cool, we make kits for that, and use pretty much the same rules, just some tweaks. That might be more GW's speed, rules wise. Right now they have the "ALL THE MODELS" thing down, but produce rules that don't seem to be good in any sense but the "makes people buy new stuff randomly" sense. I think making people buy new stuff could be achieved a better way, like new kits that get people excited. No reason all your models have to be for the same army, after all.

Which may be where this is going. Opening up armies to use units from across what had previously been multiple ranges.
Tie that in with the campaign/supplement based releases that GW seem to have started in 40k with the Tyranids/Shield of Baal thing and I think you have a much more dynamic release schedule that could appeal to many players at once.

Really, WHFBs problem is the entry fee is very high. Everyone has differing opinions on the rules. I've seen enough positive commentary to know that the current version isn't dramatically worse or better than any other depending on taste and expectation.

Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.

If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.

If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.

I reallt don't see it that pricey I just picked up glottkin the 3 icepeak guys and 2 boxes of blightknights and a few other models. They are only like 500$, which is really cheap and is no worse then a coffe a day.

... did that 500$ even buy you a usable army? It might have, I really don't know. I am just saying that WHFB seems to have a very steep buy in, especially if you accidentally buy troops that are functionally unusable in the current army book (which is a pretty real thing I think.)

Then again, I need my coffee a day. If you don't down 8-10 cups a day, maybe the math works out differently

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
Yea, that's where my money is too: reduce the factions of races down to a few race centered books that share special rules and have different options, fluff justified by the fact half the world is gone and there is not enough population to support the specialization of before.

If it is tied to a tighter rule set and a lower model count requirement to play I could see it being really successful. Unfortunately, I kind of suspect that those two additional requirements are outside of GW's purview.

I reallt don't see it that pricey I just picked up glottkin the 3 icepeak guys and 2 boxes of blightknights and a few other models. They are only like 500$, which is really cheap and is no worse then a coffe a day.

A coffee a day for a year?

Seriously, I suspect you may have a wildly different ideas of what constitutes cheap from many other posters, and I'd caution you to not frame it as a statement of fact as well, you may find yourself jumped on.

I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.

 plastictrees wrote:
I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.

Yeah, you'd think...

 Azreal13 wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.

Yeah, you'd think...

I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.

Yeah, you'd think...

I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.

agreed. I'm always amazed that people seems to deems miniatures as ridiculously expensive. I wonder in which world they live, cause in mine, whenever i go out to a bar, a freaking beer cost me almost 10$. When I buy clothes, a jeans and a few shirts will cost in the 200$. I'm happy to pay less than 50$ whenever I go in a restaurant.

Sure the price on some of them is absurd (especially the clam pack character) but for most of them, my ratio $/entertainment is higher than on pretty much anything else.

It isn't about price, it's about value.

Agreed £20-30 for a model isn't a lot of money, but frequently with GW that money doesn't seem to offer people the value they are looking for.

But this is OT, and has been done to death in other more appropriate topics.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I think OgreChubbs is working on his sarcasm black belt.
You won't even know he's struck until you nod and your head falls off...metaphorically.

Yeah, you'd think...

I really do not think 300-400$ is a big deal I spend 250$ a month on cable and internet. Then something like 400$ on food atleast "2 boys never stop eating" So spending 200$ or 300$ on some toys doesn't seem that big of a deal. We are in a era where to buy a xbox thingy is close to 550$ then it is 80$ for a game lol. Followed by a 60+ remote. Then you don't even get to play with real friends just internet people.

But now you're comparing part of our hobby to essential goods and an entirely different hobby.

That's not how this works, because compared to the hobby of collecting classic cars GW is cheap. Its also laughably more expensive than bird watching.

No, when comparing a company within a hobby you compare it to other companies within the same hobby, and GW falls flat on its face there. No game out there costs as much to get into as GW games. The example if the nurgle stuff for $500 makes this point very well, that can't possibly be a 2000 point army (average size) but for $500 I could get rules and average sized armies for Kings of War, Infinity and Dystopian Wars, probably with change to spare for an x wing starter too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It isn't about price, it's about value.

Agreed £20-30 for a model isn't a lot of money, but frequently with GW that money doesn't seem to offer people the value they are looking for.

But this is OT, and has been done to death in other more appropriate topics.

Good point, it is OT, and I'll stop talking about it as soon as I say this:
$22 for a plastic character isn't much but it looks terrible alongside a $12 metal character.

To me the problem with Warhammer is the dart board pricing they seem to use for some kits.


Black Ark Corsairs are $29.75 for 10 guys
Gor heard are $29.75 for 10 guys
Ork Boyz are $34.75 for 10 guys
High Elf spearmen are $42 for 16
Long Beards are $60 for 10!
Plastic Core wych elfs for $70 for 10!?!?!??!

And even when it feels like you are getting a good modle to dollar ratio, you need to many for a game it's mind numbing.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Way to take a dump on the whole Darkblade series, GW.

Not to mention that, according to the prophecy, Tyrion can't kill Malekith as he isn't a sorcerer. So Malekith will kill Tyrion then get backstabbed by Teclis, most likely.

Dont jump the gun, you have no idea whats coming.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Right, I'm ready to be shot down for this.

Reminds me how the NJ state government planned to save Atlantic Citys failing casinos by building another casino (hint: it didnt work). Your "solutions" are fine if GW was looking to shake up the storyline, but they arent, theyre trying to consolidate product lines and reduce the scope of the game to make it more manageable and thus more supportable and more profitable. Simply put, Fantasy as it is now isnt making anywhere near as much $ as 40k and they cannot justify the expenditure and resources to support it tye same way, ergo the End Times solution.

Today's message :

"Only the purest of heart will escape the web of fate."

Assuming the "web of fate" is death, thats alot of dead elves!

I know I'm gonna love this book. Dead Elves are my favorite type of elf.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

jprp wrote:
Read it again, i`m saying more "races" less troop types that are just an excuse for special rules.

Multiple unit types over less armies is less bloat than less unit types over more armies. Do you actually want to extend the average update time for an army book to Wood Elf standards?

Nonsense, that depends entirely on how you do it. Given you mention it, getting rid of army books entirely would be a good start; core lists for all the main factions should be part of the rulebook, they should all be written at the same time and balanced against each other as much as possible - trying to make as much money as possible out of the rules which are only supposed to exist as an incentive to get people to purchase models(with much higher margins) is moronic. Issue periodic revisions of the core printed book with FAQ material included, sure, but the goal should be to develop a stable, accessible, basic set of rules and faction lists that provide new players with a reasonably balanced and self-contained starting point, and veteran players & GW as a company with a solid platform on which to expand. Then you keep people invested and buying new products using supplemental material and add-on games - once-yearly big shiny Forgeworld-style campaign books with minority factions or exploring "historical" conflicts, or introducing/expanding new systems like the Strike Forces rules in HH Book 3, with models produced in a low-cost material like spincast resin(not Finecast, evidently - GW need to hire on someone with actual experience), and more frequent bread & butter releases based on the Stormclaw model of a box with existing models, a special character, and a campaign book with variant army lists using existing units with additional flavour in the form of traits/artifacts/magic items etc, bookended with any new plastic models you've developed for the involved factions. Get stuck back in to the community with a Fanatic/Citadel Journal-esque section on the website for fan-created or staff-made-but-unofficial content, and accept the realities of modernity and use them to your advantage; running short of warehousing space/production time? Instead of arbitrarily cutting chunks of your range, talk to the community, tell them that Faction X or the models from Supplement Y aren't selling well and you may have to drop them, then offer to run a Kickstarter to cover the costs of continuing to produce/store them for another year up-front - either it succeeds and you gain goodwill(and sales) from people who liked those models with no risk to your own finances, or you insulate yourself against criticism by making it the community's decision whether the line stays or goes.

GW's current business model is only "required" because of GW's current business model - the choices they have made limit their possible responses to problems. They can make different choices which open up different solutions if they want to, but they don't, they're wedded to a strategy based on extracting as much money as they can based on as little effort as possible.

 reds8n wrote:
Today's message :

"Only the purest of heart will escape the web of fate."

Sounds like Teclis? Tyrion drawing Widowmaker is probably not a pure move, and Malekith is about as far from pure as you can get.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
Today's message :

"Only the purest of heart will escape the web of fate."

Sounds like Teclis? Tyrion drawing Widowmaker is probably not a pure move, and Malekith is about as far from pure as you can get.

No way is it Teclis. He sacrificed Tyrion's daughter to ensure Nagash returned.

I'm thinking it is either the Everqueen or for a longshot, Alith Anar.