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Jump Infantry just aren't priced right for the past few editions' meta. With the focus away from melee, Jump Infantry needs to either change its focus to high-mobility shooters (and compete with bikes), or be better at getting into Assault (which they aren't). A simple change to the rules allowing Jump Infantry to either Battle Focus or gain a move bonus to Charge range would fix the problem with Jump Infantry as Assault Troops. I would even take a charge bonus over Battle Focus, just the let Jet Packs and Eldar keep their specials uniquely their own. Maybe "the total on a 2d6, may re-roll if the unit did not move over 6" in the movement phase this turn" rather than "roll 2d6, take the higher" that everyone else has. Thus would also let Raven Guard keep their Chapter Tactic.

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Torga,

Yes, but your Assault Marines and similar should be pouncing on things like Devastators, Dark Reapers, Tau Gunlines and similar. They aren't made to go toe to to with dedicated melee units. Like it's said, they are assassins. They strike at an unexpected place and time to destroy something of high value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 06:23:16


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Jefffar wrote:
Torga,

Yes, but your Assault Marines and similar should be pouncing on things like Devastators, Dark Reapers, Tau Gunlines and similar. They aren't made to go toe to to with dedicated melee units. Like it's said, they are assassins. They strike at an unexpected place and time to destroy something of high value.


Right, but they should perform better than regular tac marines. Also, I would wager a Tau gunline would waste said Assault Marines. Not in actual CC, but because they would get destroyed before they reach CC.

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The thing with assault marines is that they pay for ability to move over objects. And it's a situational advantage that won't show up in every regular game. It's wonderful for when you actually have some decent ammount of terrain with blos, dangerous and impassable areas well represented - where bikes and transports just can't do the job.

The thing is that generally people stick to "3 ruins, 2 forests, 1 hill - let's play" type of terrain. That's why the usefullness of such specialists is hugely deminished. And also dangerous terrain being not that dangerous any more. Its understandable why would you prefer a jump trooper over a biker that dies 1/6 of the time when moving over a rocky hill. Now it's like 1/18.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 07:21:19


 
   
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koooaei wrote:The thing with assault marines is that they pay for ability to move over objects. And it's a situational advantage that won't show up in every regular game. It's wonderful for when you actually have some decent ammount of terrain with blos, dangerous and impassable areas well represented - where bikes and transports just can't do the job.

The thing is that generally people stick to "3 ruins, 2 forests, 1 hill - let's play" type of terrain. That's why the usefullness of such specialists is hugely deminished.

Exactly.

One of the big draws of heavy support is that they can shoot stuff from far away, but if you regularly played on a board packed with terrain, we'd be having this exact conversation about heavy support choices, rather than fast attack.

Play a game with a real amount of terrain and few enough points that the movement phase actually matters (rather than cramming WAY too many points onto way too small of a table), and suddenly things with better movement become a lot better.

vipoid wrote:Anyway, out of interest, how do you see people misusing or misjudging Elite units? Or, perhaps I should ask, what merits should they be judging them on, other than killing power? If you see what I mean.

People throwing single jump units against their opponents is sort of like people throwing single units of terminators against their opponent. Neither are troops that can absorb a brutal pounding for their points, nor are they heavy support that can put out a lot of damage right away. Instead, they're both versatile units, but that can't just be thrown somewhere thoughtlessly and have them be expected to win.

They are a little different, though, in that elites choices tend to be better at holding ground while FA are better at taking it, and elites tend to bias towards being good against troops while FA are better against HS.

But still "how to fix assault marines" has a great deal of overlap with "how to fix terminators". Especially since they always tend to start with a misunderstanding about what the unit is supposed to do, and continues by trying to make it into something that it isn't.


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I like the after-deep-strike consolidate idea. I find it silly that assault marines land in "group hug for the templates" formation for no reason.

I still want to punch the GW guys who say that assault after deep strike doesn't seem fair, but landing right next to you with split firing battlesuits or combat squaded sternguards with meltas/plasma/flamer is A-okay. My unit is every bit as dead, but at least with the assault, I could've over watched, they might've failed charge range, and I could get to fight back in melee before going down.

And yes t4 3+ armor is laughable now compared to when I started the game. Proliferation of good ap and high str weaponry for "meh" points seems at an all-time high. I used to walk across the board with 2 hive tyrants, 3 carnifexes, and a red terror alongside 2 sets of infiltrating stealers and a couple groups of hormagaunts. Typically only 1 MC would fall before I had walked across the table into assault.

It'd be nice to see jumpers get jink. Usually when you see a jump infantryman played in any online fps style thing, they rely more on being fast and dodgey. Even in space marine!

Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be hoping for 8th edition to fix some of my current woes.

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niv-mizzet wrote:
I like the after-deep-strike consolidate idea. I find it silly that assault marines land in "group hug for the templates" formation for no reason.

I still want to punch the GW guys who say that assault after deep strike doesn't seem fair, but landing right next to you with split firing battlesuits or combat squaded sternguards with meltas/plasma/flamer is A-okay.
That's *always* been like that, I don't think you could do it even in 2nd edition. Assaults do something shooting doesn't, in that if you fail to kill your target with shooting, you don't also get to lock its actions and hide yourself, unlike with CC, and shooting attacks don't get to automatically strike rear vehicle armor, while failing an Ld test to shooting is bad, failing it to CC usually means complete destruction of the unit. On top of that, potentially engaging multiple units in CC would be a lot easier for most DS'ing units if allowed, than most shooting units can.

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But you allready can consolidate after a deepstrike. Run.
   
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I fully agree to the terrain argument. Many people seem to play with only a few craters, woods and ruins. This would explain, of course, why in their games the heavy support and long range dakka dominates the game. I've built a big LOS-blocking mountain, about 30cm/12" high. Most people in our gaming group want to use it since it almost guarantees interesting games. People even started to intentionally place objective markers there to create more conflict for objectives.

But yes, if you just put 2 armies against each other on a flat table and they have a shoot-out... yes, then Jump Infantery need a fix. But for such games the fix is easy: give them big guns, remove the Jump Packs and make them dirt cheap. Only then the Internet will approve.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
This is a huge deal. I feel that bikes have really been overbuffed. They've got incredible speed, reasonable firepower, and amazing resiliency. A fully kitted max sized SM Bike squad with two specials and a heavy weapon toting bike and a powerfist isn't tremendously more than a kitted Tac squad in a Rhino or fully kitted Assault Marine jump squad, but gets to play with even more speed, an on-demand 4+ cover save (which, while reducing their shooting capabilities, does nothing to their assault capabilities, and the TL'd nature of most of their weapons helps with that), much more firepower, and T5 to boot, with some extremely powerful HQ synergies.

I think a big issue here isn't so much with the jump packs, it's that Biker units, often competing for the same slot and often the same role, aren't much more of an investment and are far more capable, resilient, and flexible. Why spend 17pts on an Assault Marine when you can spend 20 and get a Biker? For that matter, why bother with Tac Marines either when a Captain on a Bike will make Bikers troops


Agreed.

Out of interest, what would you suggest to fix bikers? Should they just be more expensive, or should they lose one or more of their rules? e.g. Should Relentless only apply to the bike's in-built weapons?

 Ailaros wrote:

People throwing single jump units against their opponents is sort of like people throwing single units of terminators against their opponent. Neither are troops that can absorb a brutal pounding for their points, nor are they heavy support that can put out a lot of damage right away. Instead, they're both versatile units, but that can't just be thrown somewhere thoughtlessly and have them be expected to win.

They are a little different, though, in that elites choices tend to be better at holding ground while FA are better at taking it, and elites tend to bias towards being good against troops while FA are better against HS.

But still "how to fix assault marines" has a great deal of overlap with "how to fix terminators". Especially since they always tend to start with a misunderstanding about what the unit is supposed to do, and continues by trying to make it into something that it isn't.


Interesting points.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 Murenius wrote:
I fully agree to the terrain argument. Many people seem to play with only a few craters, woods and ruins. This would explain, of course, why in their games the heavy support and long range dakka dominates the game. I've built a big LOS-blocking mountain, about 30cm/12" high. Most people in our gaming group want to use it since it almost guarantees interesting games. People even started to intentionally place objective markers there to create more conflict for objectives.

But yes, if you just put 2 armies against each other on a flat table and they have a shoot-out... yes, then Jump Infantery need a fix. But for such games the fix is easy: give them big guns, remove the Jump Packs and make them dirt cheap. Only then the Internet will approve.


I hear the terrain thing A LOT. We play with rolled density, average 12 pieces, and have lots of large LOS blockers, buildings, and ruins available. Our entire group still runs on the (widely accepted) theory that dedicated assault sucks and needs some update love badly. Some of our games we have problems fitting the density of terrain we rolled on the table.
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 Vaktathi wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote:
I like the after-deep-strike consolidate idea. I find it silly that assault marines land in "group hug for the templates" formation for no reason.

I still want to punch the GW guys who say that assault after deep strike doesn't seem fair, but landing right next to you with split firing battlesuits or combat squaded sternguards with meltas/plasma/flamer is A-okay.
That's *always* been like that, I don't think you could do it even in 2nd edition. Assaults do something shooting doesn't, in that if you fail to kill your target with shooting, you don't also get to lock its actions and hide yourself, unlike with CC, and shooting attacks don't get to automatically strike rear vehicle armor, while failing an Ld test to shooting is bad, failing it to CC usually means complete destruction of the unit. On top of that, potentially engaging multiple units in CC would be a lot easier for most DS'ing units if allowed, than most shooting units can.


Yes yes I know, you either lock them in combat or make them fail leadership. The problem is that you stand around giving them a formal greeting for a turn before that. And then you get shot in the face.

While a shooty deep strike unit can't lock their target down, they can typically just outright kill them. I think I'd prefer dead enemies to living enemies that I'm still trying to take down. Some of the better ones can do this to multiple units.

Multi-assault is hardly a consideration, at least for the assault marines. Even 2 no upgrades fire warriors units cutoff from supporting fire would still kill a couple marines and lose 4 guys themselves. Hardly a crushing loss. Anything tougher than tau in close combat would be a serious risk to disorderly charging marines. Even if Multi-assault was better, I would argue that the enemy general could position his forces better. This could be done WAAAY easier than trying to wrap around important things just to give them a crappy cover save, or wrapping so much that you knock some short range weapons out of range. In the case of farsight or sternguard, you could still just be like "ignore cover lol pointless wrap!"
Meanwhile, there's no way for the assault unit to get to the unit it wants if there's even 3 guys in the way shouting "you shall not pass!"

Yeah, you might get to "hide" in cc, but that would cause more counter-assault choices to be taken, which would bring the game back to a much better place IMO

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/19 11:37:03


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 Murenius wrote:
I fully agree to the terrain argument. Many people seem to play with only a few craters, woods and ruins. This would explain, of course, why in their games the heavy support and long range dakka dominates the game. I've built a big LOS-blocking mountain, about 30cm/12" high. Most people in our gaming group want to use it since it almost guarantees interesting games. People even started to intentionally place objective markers there to create more conflict for objectives.

But yes, if you just put 2 armies against each other on a flat table and they have a shoot-out... yes, then Jump Infantery need a fix. But for such games the fix is easy: give them big guns, remove the Jump Packs and make them dirt cheap. Only then the Internet will approve.


It should be worth noting that many tournaments (nova format for starters) use big LOS blocking terrain. Shooty mobile armies dominate - Wave Serpents, Wraithknights, Riptides, Imperial Knights, Centurions (with Gate), Bikes etc

Stationary gun lines have thankfully long since gone the way of the dodo.
   
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Jefffar wrote:
Torga,

Yes, but your Assault Marines and similar should be pouncing on things like Devastators, Dark Reapers, Tau Gunlines and similar. They aren't made to go toe to to with dedicated melee units. Like it's said, they are assassins. They strike at an unexpected place and time to destroy something of high value.


Okay, I'm seeing a unit of let's say Devastators on the enemy team. I am playing space wolves-awesome, I'm gonna use an assassin unit to take them out.

Skyclaws-I have a chance to mishap upon landing, BS3 if I try shooting upon landing, and they get to shoot me before I get to charge them. And gosh golly do those rocket launchers hurt my exposed marine tuckus

Plasma hunters in a pod- no scatter, I just show up and mofos die. I can even drop into terrain. And oh look objective secured, icing on the cake.

Orks-scattering Stormboyz, or outflanking scorcha/RL buggies which are much much harder to kill? Tough choice.

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Bikes are too good for their points in most cases. This makes it hard to really compare.

Marine assault units are Termies, or massed Tacs. With their current rules, Bikes too. Note that Termies and Tacs need to DS or need a transport to get there. Bikes don't.

ASM aren't so much an 'assault unit' so much as a bully. They won't win the engagement, but they can flank and either tie up or take out Dev-equivelents while your main force (tacs usually) do the real work. Or they can counter assault or assist in the assault of the main force (again, assisting, but not doing the bulk of the work.

Spamming ASM will usually fail miserably, because you're putting everything into low-output skirmishers. One ASM squad (I usually run 6-8 guys) can do some serious mobile support, as the enemy needs to handle them. But an army of them will simply get destroyed by either dedicated melee or dedicated shooting. Cause they're bullies. They can rapidly assist wherever they would best be utilized, but are outclassed by many options.

That said, ASM aren't good right now. Bikes do everything they do (almost) for marginally more cost, but substantially better dakka, mobility, and durability.

Bikes are strong enough to be the core of the army. If they were rebalanced into skirmishers as well, we'd see more ASM, and a lot more forward-pushing tacs.

So a decent bully, but severely outclassed by bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I usually deploy them instead of DS them. Either on the flank with an obvious target, or centrally to assist with Tac charges/countercharges. Sometimes DS is worth it, but usually not for me.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 14:14:28


 
   
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Bartali wrote:

It should be worth noting that many tournaments (nova format for starters) use big LOS blocking terrain. Shooty mobile armies dominate - Wave Serpents, Wraithknights, Riptides, Imperial Knights, Centurions (with Gate), Bikes etc

Stationary gun lines have thankfully long since gone the way of the dodo.


See, I've heard statements like this before and they always puzzle me.

It seems like we're saying "Great news - gun-lines weren't overpowered enough, and have gone extinct! Now we have all the fun of highly-mobile units that still put out as much firepower as a gun-line."

And that's a good thing because...?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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Better options like Vanguard Veterans.

I hope csm chosens could take jump packs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 15:22:44


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To be honest unless you are playing Blood Angels, Raven Guard or White Scars most of us are taking Assault Squads right now because we want to not for the effectiveness.
Don't get me wrong I love my Skyclaws, but when I take them it is as part of a All Blood Claws force including 2 Pack of Blood Claws in Stormwolves, 1 Skyclaw Pack and one Swiftclaw Pack each with a Wolf Priest Attached it is for the fun of the list not to be competitive.

The same with my Chaos Marines, here it is one Squad of Raptors with MoS and Icon of Excess for the FNP and Warp Talons with MoT for the 3+/4++ Save.

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 vipoid wrote:
Bartali wrote:

It should be worth noting that many tournaments (nova format for starters) use big LOS blocking terrain. Shooty mobile armies dominate - Wave Serpents, Wraithknights, Riptides, Imperial Knights, Centurions (with Gate), Bikes etc

Stationary gun lines have thankfully long since gone the way of the dodo.


See, I've heard statements like this before and they always puzzle me.

It seems like we're saying "Great news - gun-lines weren't overpowered enough, and have gone extinct! Now we have all the fun of highly-mobile units that still put out as much firepower as a gun-line."

And that's a good thing because...?


Mobile shooting units are more interesting than static gunlines. They at least do something in the movment phase.
If would of course be better if assault was on an even keel with shooting, but then it's GW we're talking about.
   
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Bartali wrote:
Mobile shooting units are more interesting than static gunlines. They at least do something in the movment phase.


Agree to disagree then, I guess.

I don't find units more interesting just because they move more.

Though, saying that, I'm sure a lot of gun-lines would happily move, if they could do so without sacrificing firepower.

Bartali wrote:
If would of course be better if assault was on an even keel with shooting, but then it's GW we're talking about.


But then, at least assault units can actually catch gun-lines.


In terms of assault vs. shooting, I agree that the core rules do favour shooting. However, a lot of recent codices seem to be getting some damn good assault units, which are definitely closing the gap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/19 15:40:56


 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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I think the core rules for jump packs are OK. Might be nice to be able to use the pack in multiple phases.

I field my assault marines as a bully unit, larking around the backfield picking on things weaker then they are. They do OK for their points. Would bikes work better? Probably. JPs have a smaller footprint then bikes. Easier to hide behind cover and jump out (or over!) Most of the other comparisons are either a wash or in the bike’s favor. Besides cost in $$, which is on the Assault Marine’s side

It used to be that the bikes were the FA pick with slightly better shooting, and the AM were slightly better in assault. But the way the rules have drifted, the bikes just got so much better, and the JPs have only got a few buffs, but mostly got left behind. How much buffing to the JPs would be needed to regain parity? Would that leave the footsloggers completely behind? Or do we need to nerf bikes? A return to relentless for mounted weapons only might help. I forget when they switched it to being the whole model, 4th? Jiggering point values might be the best option, it would probably piss off the fewest people.

   
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the_scotsman wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Torga,

Yes, but your Assault Marines and similar should be pouncing on things like Devastators, Dark Reapers, Tau Gunlines and similar. They aren't made to go toe to to with dedicated melee units. Like it's said, they are assassins. They strike at an unexpected place and time to destroy something of high value.


Okay, I'm seeing a unit of let's say Devastators on the enemy team. I am playing space wolves-awesome, I'm gonna use an assassin unit to take them out.

Skyclaws-I have a chance to mishap upon landing, BS3 if I try shooting upon landing, and they get to shoot me before I get to charge them. And gosh golly do those rocket launchers hurt my exposed marine tuckus

Plasma hunters in a pod- no scatter, I just show up and mofos die. I can even drop into terrain. And oh look objective secured, icing on the cake.

Orks-scattering Stormboyz, or outflanking scorcha/RL buggies which are much much harder to kill? Tough choice.


Well, if you dropped them where a mild scatter puts them out in the open, then yeah, you deserve to have the unit blown away. Maybe I've played xenos a bit much, but I'm under the impression that if you leave a unit exposed, you should expect it to not live very long. The assault threat on a unit of Jump infantry is up to 24 inches, so you can usually find something to hide behind if you aren't playing on planet billiard table.

BS doesn't really matter in a unit armed with bolt pistols, you're probably going to run in most circumstances anyway, which helps deal with blasts as well as positioning issues caused by a bad scatter. About the only jump units that care about BS are Vanguard with Plasma Pistols (costly) and Vespid (Who have marker light help). Everything else has a template or is better off running instead of shooting after a deep strike anyway.

Of course, eating heavy weapons could be what you want, after all if he's smacking the Skyclaws with missile launchers, or plasma cannons or similar, he's not turning them on those precious objective secured troops you mentioned, or those nice and killy Thunderwolves.

Yes, you can make any unit look bad by putting it in isolation and forcing it to work at a disadvantage, but that doesn't make it bad.

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Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

As a question, is deep-striking really the best idea for a melee jump unit in the first place?

I mean, surely the main advantage of having jump packs is that you can get up the field quickly, whilst still using terrain to shield you from enemy fire. Dumping them in the open with a risky deep strike just seems dubious.

I mean, if you're just going to land next to your target, do you even need jump packs? Seems like you may as well just use a drop pod and have some regular marines (or somesuch).

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Alexandria, VA

Ignoring overwatch would be nice.

Ignore ordnance.

6's to hit when jumping?
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 rryannn wrote:
Ignoring overwatch would be nice.


Said every assault unit ever.

 rryannn wrote:

Ignore ordnance.


Why?

 rryannn wrote:

6's to hit when jumping?


Please no. This is a mechanic I really wish the game would grow out of.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Relentless could also help giving them a punch.

For Marines of all colors and flavors [Including Chaos] Letting them take a second Bolt Pistol could also help.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





What, pray tell, does Relentless do for ASMs? Does Sarge really get a combi weapon?
   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

Bharring wrote:
What, pray tell, does Relentless do for ASMs? Does Sarge really get a combi weapon?

Every Assault Squad out there seems to get Access to Plasma Guns, this would help with their punch.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 vipoid wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
This is a huge deal. I feel that bikes have really been overbuffed. They've got incredible speed, reasonable firepower, and amazing resiliency. A fully kitted max sized SM Bike squad with two specials and a heavy weapon toting bike and a powerfist isn't tremendously more than a kitted Tac squad in a Rhino or fully kitted Assault Marine jump squad, but gets to play with even more speed, an on-demand 4+ cover save (which, while reducing their shooting capabilities, does nothing to their assault capabilities, and the TL'd nature of most of their weapons helps with that), much more firepower, and T5 to boot, with some extremely powerful HQ synergies.

I think a big issue here isn't so much with the jump packs, it's that Biker units, often competing for the same slot and often the same role, aren't much more of an investment and are far more capable, resilient, and flexible. Why spend 17pts on an Assault Marine when you can spend 20 and get a Biker? For that matter, why bother with Tac Marines either when a Captain on a Bike will make Bikers troops


Agreed.

Out of interest, what would you suggest to fix bikers? Should they just be more expensive, or should they lose one or more of their rules? e.g. Should Relentless only apply to the bike's in-built weapons?
There's a number of things that could be done. The easiest would just be a price increase, returning them to their more reasonable 5E prices would be more appropriate given their mobility, speed, staying power and versatility.

Personally I think the Jink rule in general is in need of some looking at. A lot of Bikes don't particularly care about the hit to BS (particularly SM bikes that often want to get into an assault or Eldar jetbikes that were just gonna zip around in the first place), and most have a TL'd weapon anyway. Besides that, trying to "jink" on a bike would realistically be a great ticket to crash-ville with a side of serious road-rash, but this is the same mechanic that allows immobilized skimmers to jink and does nothing to harm transported passengers ability to shoot or (in the case of open topped vehicles) assault out of a maniacally maneuvering transport

That said, personally I'm not a fan of how bikes in 40k work generally anyway. They're incredibly unrealistic the the point of absurdity. 40k tries to treat them like mounted cavalry with similar rules to how Fantasy works them, when they really shouldn't be anything alike. Bikes wouldn't do anything to help deflect incoming fire or melee blows really (especially not Eldar/Dark Eldar bikes with their design) and that makes the increased Toughness aspect puzzling, trying to fight from a bike in close combat (as opposed to zipping through and whacking a guy on your way akin to something more like a Vector Strike mechanic, like the opening Biker fight in Akira) would make them very easy to kill (hard to parry, deflect blows, lunge, etc when you're sitting), trying to aim the front mounted fixed guns with any degree of accuracy would be impossible, etc. Though perhaps that's a conversation better suited to its own thread.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Anpu42 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
What, pray tell, does Relentless do for ASMs? Does Sarge really get a combi weapon?

Every Assault Squad out there seems to get Access to Plasma Guns, this would help with their punch.


Vanilla marines just get plasma pistols and flamers.

And the sarge can’t take a combi, just melee options.

So relentless doesn’t do them a whole lot of good.

Other codexes might see some advantages, but not C:SM.

   
Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

 Nevelon wrote:
 Anpu42 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
What, pray tell, does Relentless do for ASMs? Does Sarge really get a combi weapon?

Every Assault Squad out there seems to get Access to Plasma Guns, this would help with their punch.


Vanilla marines just get plasma pistols and flamers.

And the sarge can’t take a combi, just melee options.

So relentless doesn’t do them a whole lot of good.

Other codexes might see some advantages, but not C:SM.

Well that might be my Space Wolf Bias:
Wolf Guard can take Combi-Weapons, and Skyclaws can take Plasma Guns.
Also Chaos Raptors [I am trying to figure out what to do with some given to me with Plasma-Guns]

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
 
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