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 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a number of things that could be done. The easiest would just be a price increase, returning them to their more reasonable 5E prices would be more appropriate given their mobility, speed, staying power and versatility.

Personally I think the Jink rule in general is in need of some looking at. A lot of Bikes don't particularly care about the hit to BS (particularly SM bikes that often want to get into an assault or Eldar jetbikes that were just gonna zip around in the first place), and most have a TL'd weapon anyway. Besides that, trying to "jink" on a bike would realistically be a great ticket to crash-ville with a side of serious road-rash, but this is the same mechanic that allows immobilized skimmers to jink and does nothing to harm transported passengers ability to shoot or (in the case of open topped vehicles) assault out of a maniacally maneuvering transport

I have to say, I really dislike the current Jink rules. I much preferred it when vehicles had to flat-out to get the save in their subsequent turn (and Jink was only 5+).

The current rules just seem really wonky. Especially for a game that uses IGOUGO and TLoS. So, we're supposed to abstract that the bike/skimmer is weaving wildly while remaining totally still, yet we can't possibly envision a guardsman ducking behind a window?

 Vaktathi wrote:

That said, personally I'm not a fan of how bikes in 40k work generally anyway. They're incredibly unrealistic the the point of absurdity. 40k tries to treat them like mounted cavalry with similar rules to how Fantasy works them, when they really shouldn't be anything alike. Bikes wouldn't do anything to help deflect incoming fire or melee blows really (especially not Eldar/Dark Eldar bikes with their design) and that makes the increased Toughness aspect puzzling, trying to fight from a bike in close combat (as opposed to zipping through and whacking a guy on your way akin to something more like a Vector Strike mechanic, like the opening Biker fight in Akira) would make them very easy to kill (hard to parry, deflect blows, lunge, etc when you're sitting), trying to aim the front mounted fixed guns with any degree of accuracy would be impossible, etc. Though perhaps that's a conversation better suited to its own thread.

You make a lot of good points.

Hit & Run as standard

I'd like more emphasis on the 'jump' aspect to differentiate the from bikes eg

Extended Burn mode - The unit moves 18" in the movement phase, and their guns gain skyfire. In your opponents turn your opponent can only hit the unit with snapshots unless they have skyfire.
Using this mode forgoes an assault or run move in the turn you used it.

Make bikers unable to climb ruins and flatout in DT like before. Bikes are still far superior in the open but you can't make an all-bike army to handle everything. Just as intended.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 reiner wrote:
I would be fine with Jink, as it seemed to really help gliding FMCs in the same manner I would expect it to help normal Jump Infantry in regards to surviving until assault.

Warptalons are a a whole other animal and need some major rethinking.

Honestly, deep striking in CSM needs rethinking in general. You have beings that flicker in and out, and while they have jump packs Talons are said to appear and reappear from the warp itself as daemons..

Sounds like they should have the same movement as Warp Spiders.

Defo think that they need some lovin. Was trying to bulk out my NightLords army, but just not getting much use out of them tbh. Partly down to not having decent cover and not being backed up by some of the choicer CSM stuff (Fluff restrictions tbh).

But I'd like to see Jink, an always on HoW, being able to use jump packs in movement AND charging, otherwise what's the point in having a unit of 20pt pistol and knife guys, with little upgradability being minced down by reams of bolter fire by turn 3.

For Nightlords, they are specifically tailored towards jumping. But I'd like to see shrouded on them so that they can actually get up the table.

Either that or allow JPI to be classed as zooming flyers for a turn if they flat out style burn the packs?

Would be good to see them on the table more often. Even when I went up against my mates Flesh Tearers jump dudes, they just got mown down by my guys by the time they got anywhere near me.

Mymearan wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 reiner wrote:
I would be fine with Jink, as it seemed to really help gliding FMCs in the same manner I would expect it to help normal Jump Infantry in regards to surviving until assault.

Warptalons are a a whole other animal and need some major rethinking.

Honestly, deep striking in CSM needs rethinking in general. You have beings that flicker in and out, and while they have jump packs Talons are said to appear and reappear from the warp itself as daemons..

Sounds like they should have the same movement as Warp Spiders.

Ha, like Kelly would allow his special rules to be given elsewhere.

First and foremost, a cost decrease could help.
Say 16 to 18 pts per model.
The cheaper the better to build a themed stand alone jp army like DoA.

I'm actually the opposite - I think the bigger problem is other units being too cheap.

As has already been mentioned, a lot of bikes seem underpriced for the massive array of abilities they bring.

Likewise, being able to deep strike should be an advantage in itself. But, as it stands, most other units can just buy a drop pod that can come in turn 1, can't mishap by scattering into models/terrain, gives the unit inside 6" of deployment room and can sit on enemy objectives (potentially with Objective Secured). As it stands, drop pods are far too good for what they cost.

 koooaei wrote:
Make bikers unable to climb ruins and flatout in DT like before. Bikes are still far superior in the open but you can't make an all-bike army to handle everything. Just as intended.

Do doubt. It's a little crazy how maneuverable they are these days. Putting some limits on them in DT would make a huge difference in how they work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Likewise, being able to deep strike should be an advantage in itself. But, as it stands, most other units can just buy a drop pod that can come in turn 1, can't mishap by scattering into models/terrain, gives the unit inside 6" of deployment room and can sit on enemy objectives (potentially with Objective Secured). As it stands, drop pods are far too good for what they cost.

Very true, and it makes jump troops seem so much less effective by comparison.

I really don't like the idea you can't assault after deepstrike. it gives opponents too much of an advantage when you are sitting prone like that. One idea I had for reworking the rules was that DS units get shrouded the turn they arrive.

What do you think about that? You can't assault, nor does your opponent get that free round of shooting?

Make it like DOW2, where Assault marines can generate a crater the turn they land.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm actually the opposite - I think the bigger problem is other units being too cheap.

As has already been mentioned, a lot of bikes seem underpriced for the massive array of abilities they bring.

That's really the issue - bikes units are ludicrously underpriced compared to their jump infantry equivalents. CSM Raptors and Chaos Bikers come to mind - both are fast attack special weapon carriers, but there's literally no reason to use the raptors given how awesome bikes are for their price. The only the Jump infantry can do is ignore intervening terrain... and honestly, that's not a huge obstacle for bikes either in this edition.

There's also the weird fact that landing on a unit = mishap, I mean you have Orks landing on a unit and dying instantly, when you think having tons of rokkit bearing orks landing on an IG guard crew would = Dead Guard Crew instead.

 Grumzimus wrote:
Defo think that they need some lovin. Was trying to bulk out my NightLords army, but just not getting much use out of them tbh. Partly down to not having decent cover and not being backed up by some of the choicer CSM stuff (Fluff restrictions tbh).

But I'd like to see Jink, an always on HoW, being able to use jump packs in movement AND charging, otherwise what's the point in having a unit of 20pt pistol and knife guys

They're 17pts, not 20. Getting Jink, always-on HoW, and 12" move plus rerollable charges and built in deepstrike is more than a bit much. That's quite a lot of bonus extras over basic infantry equivalents for a very small price premium, and would further obliterate any usefulness of footslogging/mechanized assault infantry.

the real issue is power armor. most jump infantry are wearing it. it needs a buff or it needs to have it's value cut in half. If assault marines cost something like 12 points they wouldn't be that great still. It should have a base 5+i save for it's current cost i mean come on...most units have no armor and just hug cover for 4+ saves marines having a 5+ at all times isn't going to break the game.

Then how much of a discount are we going to have to give other infantry? That 3+ save is still super useful, but at 12ppm for an assault marine, what should a Fire Warrior, Dire Avengers, IG Stormtrooper, or Ork Stormboy cost in relation? They all largely die the same to something like a Heldrake baleflamer, that's true, but between each other there's a world of difference and a lot more action takes place at that level.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Then how much of a discount are we going to have to give other infantry? That 3+ save is still super useful, but at 12ppm for an assault marine, what should a Fire Warrior, Dire Avengers, IG Stormtrooper, or Ork Stormboy cost in relation? They all largely die the same to something like a Heldrake baleflamer, that's true, but between each other there's a world of difference and a lot more action takes place at that level.

If you follow "power armor sux" threads, Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, IG Stormtrooper, and Ork Stormboy should still remain the same cause 6+, 5+ and 4+ "don't sux" as much as 3+.

The main issue with JI is the new prevailance of bikes. They can move the same distance, but bikes are tougher and shootier (relentless and usually some sort of heavy or twinlinked weapon built in). JI's advantage came fron ignoring terrain, but with Ravenwing and White Scars, Imperials can have Bikes that ignore terrain and have all the bike bonuses. Eldar Jetbikes are superior full stop compared to Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders or Scourges. Chaos Bikers can be Nurgle to be even tougher or have a 6++ and so offsets the terrain bit. Necrons have Jetbikes which are better in every way that JI, who are naff for Necrons anyway. And Tau have their Jetpack Infantry who are different anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:
the real issue is power armor. most jump infantry are wearing it. it needs a buff or it needs to have it's value cut in half. If assault marines cost something like 12 points they wouldn't be that great still. It should have a base 5+i save for it's current cost i mean come on...most units have no armor and just hug cover for 4+ saves marines having a 5+ at all times isn't going to break the game.

No, sorry, it shouldn't have a built-in invulnerable save.

Marines are already *incredibly* cheap for elite troops.

The bigger problem is the escalation the rest of the game has been suffering - with the considerable increase in AP2/3 weapons.

If we're at the stage where a 3+ save is worth very little, then we should be looking to de-escalate the game - not add even more escalation.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
the real issue is power armor. most jump infantry are wearing it. it needs a buff or it needs to have it's value cut in half. If assault marines cost something like 12 points they wouldn't be that great still. It should have a base 5+i save for it's current cost i mean come on...most units have no armor and just hug cover for 4+ saves marines having a 5+ at all times isn't going to break the game.

No, sorry, it shouldn't have a built-in invulnerable save.

Marines are already *incredibly* cheap for elite troops.

The bigger problem is the escalation the rest of the game has been suffering - with the considerable increase in AP2/3 weapons.

If we're at the stage where a 3+ save is worth very little, then we should be looking to de-escalate the game - not add even more escalation.

This I completely agree with.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
the real issue is power armor. most jump infantry are wearing it. it needs a buff or it needs to have it's value cut in half. If assault marines cost something like 12 points they wouldn't be that great still. It should have a base 5+i save for it's current cost i mean come on...most units have no armor and just hug cover for 4+ saves marines having a 5+ at all times isn't going to break the game.

No, sorry, it shouldn't have a built-in invulnerable save.

Marines are already *incredibly* cheap for elite troops.

The bigger problem is the escalation the rest of the game has been suffering - with the considerable increase in AP2/3 weapons.

If we're at the stage where a 3+ save is worth very little, then we should be looking to de-escalate the game - not add even more escalation.

This I completely agree with.

The problem is you'd have to start cutting tons of options out to the point where you'd be deleting wargear from half the entire game now to do so.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
the real issue is power armor. most jump infantry are wearing it. it needs a buff or it needs to have it's value cut in half. If assault marines cost something like 12 points they wouldn't be that great still. It should have a base 5+i save for it's current cost i mean come on...most units have no armor and just hug cover for 4+ saves marines having a 5+ at all times isn't going to break the game.

No, sorry, it shouldn't have a built-in invulnerable save.

Marines are already *incredibly* cheap for elite troops.

The bigger problem is the escalation the rest of the game has been suffering - with the considerable increase in AP2/3 weapons.

If we're at the stage where a 3+ save is worth very little, then we should be looking to de-escalate the game - not add even more escalation.

This I completely agree with.

The problem is you'd have to start cutting tons of options out to the point where you'd be deleting wargear from half the entire game now to do so.

Yes, but that is the true root of the problem.

 techsoldaten wrote:

I really don't like the idea you can't assault after deepstrike. it gives opponents too much of an advantage when you are sitting prone like that. One idea I had for reworking the rules was that DS units get shrouded the turn they arrive.

What do you think about that? You can't assault, nor does your opponent get that free round of shooting?

My problem with giving DS units shrouded is that we're applying that to all DS units. So, we're not really tipping the scales because we're giving the same rule to that unit of DSing tactical marines *and* their underpriced drop pod. I do like the idea though. Maybe jump infantry could count as jinking on the turn they deep-strike?

I think another problem is that the assault rules are a big mess. We have one set of nonsense rules to make assault powerful (not being able to use guns in combat, not being able to shoot units in combat, being able to sweep units off the table etc.), and then another set of nonsense rules to make assault less powerful (not being able to assault out of a stationary vehicle, not being able to assault after arriving from reserves). It seems like we could ditch some nonsense rules on both sides and have a more logical and intuitive setup.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The problem is you'd have to start cutting tons of options out to the point where you'd be deleting wargear from half the entire game now to do so.

Not necessarily. We just need to make AP2-3 weapons a bit rarer. So, we could just take some of the bigger offenders and reduce their AP. They don't have to go completely.

At the same time, I'd suggest reducing the big offenders in terms of survivability. We don't need everything running around with 4+ (or better) cover saves, we don't need Invisibility and Flyer rules ignoring 84% of shots, we don't need rerollable invulnerable saves, we don't need MCs running around with 2+/5+ saves or T8 and 6 wounds. Escalation just begets more escalation.

I'd also advocate changing around hull points and the vehicle damage chart - maybe give vehicles more hull points, but make penetrating hits more effective (so that AP3 or worse weapons don't suffer badly against vehicles).

I fear we're too close to a game where basic infantry are just window-dressing in battles that increasingly resemble an episode of Power Rangers.

And not one mention of the GK Interseptors in all of this

Well, when the same book has a jump MC with T6, a 2+/5+, S10 , strong ranged weapons etc., I expect jump infantry lose their edge a bit.

 Ribon Fox wrote:
And not one mention of the GK Interseptors in all of this

Nor Seraphim, who are one of the nastiest jump units in the game.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Nor Seraphim, who are one of the nastiest jump units in the game.

Why's that?

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Nor Seraphim, who are one of the nastiest jump units in the game.

Why's that?

Unit of 5 is 75pts - two bolt pistols standard, hit and run, re-rollable 6++, 3+ armour, once per game Shred on their attacks, can have 2 x 2 hand flamers in a unit

they can be very nasty

they are also Fast Attack but that means they have to compete with Dominions who are equally awesome.

One thought I had that would be simple and easy to use without being "Game Breaking".
>If Jump Packs are used as part of the Assault Phase, the Unit just gets a 5+ "Cover Save."

There's nothing wrong with Jump Packs. They are nice wargear with a set of cool and advantageous rules already. They problem is how they are priced. Assault Marines would be just dandy if they were priced appropriately. Stormboyz are great, now that they are at 9 points. Their only real problem is the competition from the other great FA choices in the Ork codex - but that's not an issue with the unit itself.