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I've got an idea for a Warhammer 40,000 novel, but while I do have knowledge of a good amount of 40K fluff, I feel like I need input and help from someone who would consider themselves an "expert" and could help me finish the outline.

I don't want to reveal the plot details publicly, but what I will say is that it involves Tyranids, the Imperium (still need help deciding which specific part of the Imperium), Chaos Daemons, and perhaps Chaos Space Marines if it seems to fit. Since I've always played 'nids, I really need people who know a lot about the Imperium and Chaos to give their input.

Please reply to this if you are interested in helping, or you can PM me.

Here's some unsolicited writing advice.

Don't do the "I don't want to reveal plot details" thing, because you are creating a barrier between you and useful and perhaps vital criticism. You don't need to give out all of the details, but as a reader and writer, when I see this line, it means that you are already so invested into your idea that you won't receive criticism well.

I'd be willing to say more plot details in private, of course. I'm certainly willing to work with alternative ideas for specific plot devices and whatnot, and since it's an outline, aside from the core essence of the story, everything else I've written in the outline I have is simply a brainstorm. Plus, I'm honestly not great at knowing what is a good amount to reveal (in this context and in others), it's mostly because if I were to get lucky and have a novel published, posting the overall plot (even though it would change as criticism/suggestions were received) publicly would spoil it for potential readers.

There may be a way to negate that potential issue that I'm just not able to think of, so if there is feel free to say so.

I'd agree with curran12, don't give any suggestions that you'd not recieve criticism well

With forces use a generic but new guard regiment for ease. The black legion give you most options for chaos and as for tyranids find an invasion map, pick your tendril and go with thar

Not to be too blunt about it, but that is not how novel publishing works. Authors do not work in secrecy, and good ones share their ideas like crazy because it is so useful to throw out ideas and test it. If your focus is on "but what if I get published" and that is serious, your priorities are WAY out of alignment. That's just not how it works, man.

From a believability standpoint, it is unlikely that the IG will join forces with a Chaos Space Marine to defeat Tyranids, because they know that they'll be dead either way... and, at least, fighting both the Traitor and the Xenos ensures that those who die will go to the place the Emperor has prepared for them at His table... and not have their souls cast screaming into the Void, out of the Light of the Emperor.

More than likely, Chaos would use the IG as a buffer, herding them towards the Tyranids to cover their own asses.

I think GW has a very collabrative writing/editing process from interviews I've read/listened to from various sources. I am not positive they accept manuscripts as they apparently plot the fiction more cohesively nowadays.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Chaos and Imperium allying to defeat 'nids. I was inspired both by the story "The Fall of Shadowbrink" from the new 'nid codex (I despise most of the codex, this is just the only new thing that hit a good note with me), and Godzilla movies.

The basic idea is that Daemons and Tyranids are fighting, and whatever humans the story centers around are caught in the middle somehow (I've got several ideas, but I'd like to keep it brief for now). Like when two apex predators are fighting over an injured prey animal, the 'nids and Daemons are so focused on killing each other that some of the humans are able to escape.

Overall, I at least hope to portray the 'nids in a certain light - while the Tyranid swarm is obviously capable of incredible adaptation to counter their prey's defenses, and can think tactically, in a certain way they are more like animals. Everything they do is centered around the most basic of instincts - survival. One thought I had was there being some object of high importance to the Imperium, that could not fall into Chaos hands for any reason. Then, after the conflict ended and the Tyranids consumed the world, they journeyed to the surface and the artifact is still there. Why? Because as an inorganic object, the Tyranids had no interest in it. That direction seems unlikely now due to the fact that I really can't think of any artifact that would be so important to the Imperium that they would risk so much to retrieve it.

I'm by no means an expert on Tyranid lore (probably my least favorite faction) but I might be able to help you out on the Chaos Daemons/CSM side of things. Daemons might focus on killing Nids because the Shadow in the Warp (Nids psychic chatter that disrupts all other things warpy) would cause them all to get banished if it grew too strong, disrupting their plans and inviting punishment from their gods for failure.

The interesting thing about Daemons is that unlike Tyranids they sort of have individual personalities, but they're also detached pieces of their god, so they don't really have free will to speak of (DP's used to be mortal, but are also completely under the control of their patron god). The Greater Daemons, Heralds, and Daemon Princes (the most intelligent daemons) could communicate with our poor humans, whether to taunt, scare, or manipulate them. So that could add an interesting wrinkle to the story.

I don't necessarily agree that no guardsmen would ever team up with daemons. Desperation can make someone do crazy things. If they think they can get away with it, some would be tempted, especially given how cunning and manipulative some daemons are. A daemon might hide its true nature and pretend to be something else to get a contingent of guardsmen to do its will. Because the Imperium tries to keep any detailed knowledge of Chaos from most people, the guardsmen might not even have a clear idea of what the daemons even ARE. Lots of story possibilities there.

 fallinq wrote:
I'm by no means an expert on Tyranid lore (probably my least favorite faction) but I might be able to help you out on the Chaos Daemons/CSM side of things. Daemons might focus on killing Nids because the Shadow in the Warp (Nids psychic chatter that disrupts all other things warpy) would cause them all to get banished if it grew too strong, disrupting their plans and inviting punishment from their gods for failure.

The interesting thing about Daemons is that unlike Tyranids they sort of have individual personalities, but they're also detached pieces of their god, so they don't really have free will to speak of (DP's used to be mortal, but are also completely under the control of their patron god). The Greater Daemons, Heralds, and Daemon Princes (the most intelligent daemons) could communicate with our poor humans, whether to taunt, scare, or manipulate them. So that could add an interesting wrinkle to the story.

I don't necessarily agree that no guardsmen would ever team up with daemons. Desperation can make someone do crazy things. If they think they can get away with it, some would be tempted, especially given how cunning and manipulative some daemons are. A daemon might hide its true nature and pretend to be something else to get a contingent of guardsmen to do its will. Because the Imperium tries to keep any detailed knowledge of Chaos from most people, the guardsmen might not even have a clear idea of what the daemons even ARE. Lots of story possibilities there.

Not to mention the Daemons can make a fairly good offer to the Guardsmen.

Die horribly to the nids, or while you would be serving us, you get to live and not die to girbbly space bugs. And yeah, most regiments outside of Cadia probably won't have a very good idea of what Chaos is for security reasons besides the Imperial Primer, although beyond their first deployment, most Guardsmen probably use that thing as toilet paper given how useless its information is.

 brendan wrote:
I think GW has a very collabrative writing/editing process from interviews I've read/listened to from various sources. I am not positive they accept manuscripts as they apparently plot the fiction more cohesively nowadays.

Unless they changed things up recently, the way you get your foot in the door with BL is to submit a writing sample of x many words, and if they like what you've written you get a book deal or something. Typically, as I understand it, you don't normally get to write what you want to.

reptilelover wrote:Plus, I'm honestly not great at knowing what is a good amount to reveal (in this context and in others), it's mostly because if I were to get lucky and have a novel published, posting the overall plot (even though it would change as criticism/suggestions were received) publicly would spoil it for potential readers.

Don't worry about this at all. Saying that you have a great idea but you'll spoil it if you reveal it is only true in... well... nothing. It's never true.

Saying you have an idea for a novel and actually writing a novel are very, very different. Ideas are cheap, even good ones, but they don't gain any actual value until labor has been applied to them. Saying you've got an idea for a book, but you don't want to share it in case someone quick starts and rushes all the way to completion before you is like saying you have a great idea for the design of a car, but are afraid that Ferrari will put it into production before you can get your prototype finished.

It's not going to happen. Ferrari is already busy doing other things, rather than carefully picking over the internet to "steal" other people's ideas. Assuming your ideas are even theft-worthy in the first place.

chaos0xomega wrote:Unless they changed things up recently, the way you get your foot in the door with BL is to submit a writing sample of x many words, and if they like what you've written you get a book deal or something. Typically, as I understand it, you don't normally get to write what you want to.

Right. It's wrong to think of BL as a publisher in the proper sense of the word. It's more a distributing platform for the material GW makes its authors write.

I was under the impression that BL writers get to use their creativity about as much as the fluff writers for the codices.

I didn't mean I was worried that someone would steal the idea, what I meant is that if I were to essentially post the entire plot in extreme detail, I was worried that it would spoil any [hopefully] surprising plot twists or whatever, but thinking about it more I've come to the conclusion that since this is a single thread in a very popular forum, once I start the actual writing process this would probably be buried so deep that if it got published, it's not like everyone would remember it.

One other benefit of more "private" communications that I've found is it's easier to have a back-and-forth ideas/criticism/etc. with the person than when posting in a thread. Plus, while I am subscribed to this thread, for some reason it only notified me of the first reply so I have to randomly check and see if there are new posts. While overall I will most likely keep posting in this thread until I'm satisfied that I have a solid outline/character details and whatnot, I do feel that being able to communicate more directly with a person or group of people is helpful. I have the outline on Google Drive not only because of the benefits of having a "backup" in case something were to happen with my computer, but also if I share it with others, they can see what I've got as I write it, they can make comments on specific parts and even add their own ideas to the document. Overall, in my experience with other times where I've needed feedback or advice on some topic, I've found that at least for me, I tend to get a better sense of what to do than when I try to do back-and-forth type stuff in a forum. Biggest benefit to a forum of course is that you get far more people potentially giving you feedback, so that's why I intend to at least keep the general stuff here (again, the speed of more personal communications makes the finer details and whatnot easier to refine, so I may limit those for that reason depending on whether or not my overall plot scheme seems solid since if I need to change the plot, that means the details need to be rethought too.

As a side note, I have had a lot of practice writing fiction, having written multiple short stories and one mini-novel. While I would hope to get anything I did published, I'd still be happy with just the writing experience. The only reason I really need "consultants" for this is because unlike in my other writings, this novel would be taking place in a universe with a rich background. I need to make sure that the plot and characters and whatnot do not contradict/come into major conflict with/butcher existing fluff (I know a lot of stuff in the lore is contradictory, so referring to the most recent editions when necessary). For example, I'm not gonna write a story where Tyranids learn to speak Gothic and decide to make peace with the Imperium. Having that kind of feedback can at least help to avoid that as much as possible.

Basically, with BL/GW, you only need to adhere to a few basic principles of the setting. Otherwise, GW/BL do not give a damn what you write. If you want Termis doing backflips and Sisters of Battle having casual flings, it's OK by them.

It may be okay by them, but it's not okay by me. I just don't WANT to write a story in the 40K universe that contradicts a lot of established fluff - it just feels wrong. I know how annoyed I get when I see utter fluff butchery in BL novels and even ridiculous fluff that makes no sense but is canon due to being in a codex/official GW product. I just couldn't let myself sink to that level - if I wanted to deviate from established lore, I could simply write a story in a setting of my own creation.

There is no canon in 40K.

To borrow some quotes from Lynata:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

 Psienesis wrote:
There is no canon in 40K.

To borrow some quotes from Lynata:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

Which is false and just excuses to be lazy and not be bothered keeping within existing boundaries. GW/BL may not call it a canon but it is clear there is a de facto canon of sorts at work. For example, if someone were to write about bolters shooting off laser beams or Macragge having fallen to Hive Fleet Behemoth people would clearly say that person is wrong. That would not be the case though if there is no canon and it were truly anything goes. Every fictional universe or setting (and particularly a shared settings) has to have some common fixed base of facts and rules else the whole thing just collapses into nonsense.

Yes, it is lazy. This is GW we're talking about. This surprises you?

Shoot, they have never been internally consistent. Go back to the days of 3rd and 4th ed, and you had the description of the bolter mentioning "caseless ammunition" while the picture of the heroically-posed Space Marine shooting from the hip had all kinds of brass flying out the damn thing.

But, as an example, whether the Sisters are the ultra-conservative, penitent order they are presented as in some fluff, and their Codices, or the boozing, casual-sex-having soldiers that Sandy Mitchell presents them as in the Cain novels belies the idea of there being a canon.

Who's correct? ... and if the former is correct and the former wrong, then why is the latter more popular than the former?

Are servitors mindless, former-humans fitted with cybernetic augmentations to perform a task, or are these augmentations simply supplementary hardware to enhance their natural, intelligent abilities, permitting them to lead normal human lives while not "on the clock", as Abnett would have us believe?

Does a starship require a crew of thousands, or can 50 servitors do all the things necessary for it to remain fully functional?

The argument could be made that there *could* be a bolter that shot las-rounds, only no one has created one in a published work because boltguns, as they currently are, are cool and why mess with a good thing?

And 40K *does* have a common fixed base of facts:

There is the God-Emperor of Mankind, interred in the Golden Throne of Terra.

He lead the Great Crusade to unite the worlds of Humanity with his sons, the Primarchs of the Space Marine Legions.

Half of his sons betrayed him, led by Horus, his favored son.

The Emperor killed Horus but was, himself, mortally wounded in the battle.

The Ecclesiarchy is the Space-Church of the totalitarian Imperium of Man.

The Space Marines are badass warrior-monks of the totalitarian Imperium of Man.

The Imperial Guard is a giant army very similar to all kinds of 18th through 20th century military forces, and is the primary military force of the totalitarian Imperium of Man.

The Inquisition is the Secret Police of the totalitarian Imperium.

There are Space-Elves, Space-Orks, Space-Dwarves, Space-Mummies, Space-Evil-Knights, Space-Monsters, Space-Devils, Space-Mutants, Space-Magic, Real-Magic and Church-Magic (Maybe).

Space is really, really big and the Imperium draws its borders around most of it.

.... and outside of these basic concepts, pretty much anything goes.

Iracundus wrote:
if someone were to write about bolters shooting off laser beams or Macragge having fallen to Hive Fleet Behemoth people would clearly say that person is wrong.

Marines carrying multilasers. Steel Hearts Primarch. Chaos craftworld Eldar and Tau.

No one told them they were wrong before printing it.

 Psienesis wrote:


And 40K *does* have a common fixed base of facts:

I.e. There is a canon. It may be a loose and riddled with retcons and inconsistency but it is still a canon. There is zero chance that Horus never existed or that there was never an Imperium. It is not anything goes.

Right, I listed the canon for you.

Outside of those extremely basic concepts, it's all open to whatever.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is no canon in 40K.

To borrow some quotes from Lynata:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

The only word that matters is the person in charge of publishing. Authors don't own the IP and thus their word on GW's canon policy is just as meaningful as ours. ADB might be a cool dude, but doing commissioned work for GW doesn't give you a say on their IP. The only word that would matter for establishing a canon policy is that who is in charge of publishing or the CEO, and IIRC the source of quote of everything being canon and non-canon by the head of the Black Library has been deleted.

... and we have no word from the "person in charge of publishing" to counter any previous claim over the past twenty-plus years that 40K has anything like a canon.

The idea of 40K canon is, so far, a fantasy created by the fans. It has no bearing on anything published, stated, or released by Games Workshop and does, in fact, fly in the face of things that even the BRB suggest you can do (like come to an agreement with your opponent to play the game differently than the published rules!), or that GW has demonstrated in their own BatReps and the like (by, for example, giving models wargear they can't take in their Codex, or having armies that don't fit the FoC).

This forum has left the subject of the novel being written. Could we get back on track?

The track being, if you want to write something for GW/BL. you can basically write it however you like, but you don't get to write something, submit it to BL, and then they publish it.

That isn't how they work. You basically go to work for them and churn out a few novels on whatever series they want to explore. Once you have established yourself as a writer (either in BL or by having released other books), then you can do like Dan Abnett did, point to a piece of artwork featuring an unnamed character and say "I want to write about that guy!" (this is how Gregor Eisenhorn came to exist).