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as the title says just how advanced are these guys and many secrets do they keep from the imperium?

That's a secret.

For six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and attach a primitive radar system to a Rhino. They needed an STC to do that... from the latest Space Marine codex.

They're very good at following instructions, but their actual understanding of technology is barely ahead of the Orks.

Not very.
Unless you're reading something by Graham McNeil.
Then they're essentially wizards.

If looking at the mechanicus by itself, they are the third most advanced group in 40k behind Necrons and Eldar. The technology of the DAoT is in many ways only a minor step below those two races, who themselves have technology of godlike power.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
For six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and attach a primitive radar system to a Rhino. They needed an STC to do that... from the latest Space Marine codex.

They're very good at following instructions, but their actual understanding of technology is barely ahead of the Orks.

I am not sure if it's not that they are capable of doing so, but aren't allowed to do so. They probably have all these amazing ideas flying around at their weekly brainstorming sessions of what they could do or what they could improve upon, but with the religious aspect of the Mechanicus they need to find the STC blueprints to be able to actually act on anything.

If they weren't so hindered by their religion they could be quite creative. But the restrictions do serve a purpose.

Hardly

 Scorpionov wrote:
as the title says just how advanced are these guys [...] ?

That's complicated, and probably not the right question.
The Mechanicus relies on STC printouts.
Do they have an STC printout of a land speeder anti-grav engine? Yes. They can produce a land speeder anti-grav engine.
Do they have an STC printout of an 11'' inch toaster? No. They only have designs for 9'' and 12'' toasters, so they can only produce 9'' and 12'' toasters. A member of the Adeptus Mechanicus would only be able to produce an 11'' toaster if they combine existing STC printouts in such a way that the 11'' version fits together perfectly - such perfection is taken to be proof that the Omnissiah meant for the STC printouts to be combined in such a way, it's just that the Mechanicus hasn't yet found any STC printouts mentioning this connection. Or a heretek could just claim that it's all STC compliant.

So, it's not "how advanced are these guys?", it's "how advanced are their STC printouts?". And the answer is "in some areas very, in other areas not at all". Just because they've found multiple instruction guides to producing melta weapons, giant laser cannons, anti-grav units, etc, doesn't mean they're advanced in other ways.

Note: I'm exaggerating with regards to toasters. I'm assuming that there are some machines (including toasters) that are so common and so alike that the Mechanicus have just gone "yeah, their similarities suggest that they are based on STC printouts, so let's continue to use them even if we haven't found those printouts".

[...] many secrets do they keep from the imperium?

Lots. Forgeworlds jealously guard secrets from each other, so would happily keep everything secret from the Imperium if they think they can get away with it.
There are also going to be things that are too difficult to produce to justify sharing widely. As an example, just look at the BFG Adeptus Mechanicus pdf. It mentions that before M37 it was very hard to produce long-range lances. This meant that the Mechanicus reserved such costly weapons for themselves, rather than sharing them with the regular Imperial Navy.

EDIT: Yes, there is a little bit of original research going on... but only a little, only very slowly, and it's only done by a tiny number of tech-priests (who are often viewed as dangerously radical).

They produce what they can on mass production, does not mean they have far more powerful advanced tech, just its not able to be deployed on the impirium scales. A mechanicous battleship\ ark is a truely advanced and deadly warship.

The titans are insanely advanced, even a war hound is a work of decades of the finest tech priest's.

Just because they make 10,000 leman Russ, does not mean they cannot build titans

The Mechanicus lost much of its technology when Mars fell during the Horus Heresy, where it lost the ability to produce the high-quality weapons and armors used by the Imperium's forces and thus every suit of Power Armor is a holy relic, because it can't be made anymore, or if it can, on a very small scale (nothing like during the Great Crusade) the Mechanicum is very primitive compared to even the T'au, as they aren't allowed to improve upon any of the technology that they find. Religion binds the Mechanicum, and if it weren't for their little cult, their technology would probably surpass that of the Necrons by now. Also, what advanced tech the Mechanicum does have, it hides so that it has an ace in the hole.
The Mechanicum does have some highly advanced technology (like the Titans) but most of the good stuff is hidden away. Most of their greatest creations and advanced technology was made over ten thousand years ago (like the arks), though some can still be produced (like the Titans).

the answer is the same with most 40k answers.

they all rely on STC, none of them do.
they never innovate, they are innovating all the time
progress is heresy, progress is the only thing.

think of current day religions (western) they all claim to be the right path and come from pretty much the same place, but people interprete (sp?) them all wildy, yet they are all wrong...and right, depends on the viewpoint.

so the add mech is massively advanced technologically and massively backward technologically, its both and each of its followers use its tenets in different ways, shades of grey buddy.

It depends on the author I suppose, in the sisters of battle novels by James Swallow, the Mechanicus has a fairly good understanding of some of the the principles of how necron technology works (and is even able to use some of it, though not to the end they thought it would) even if the specifics of its construction are unknown to them. One of the mechanicum adepts even refers to a necron warrior head as a priceless artifact (though he doesn't admit to anyone else).

In the Yarrick novel (the one where he's young and such) after defeating a heretical warmachine, the mechanicus tears it apart to learn its secrets before destroying it.

This stuff does along with much of the current fluff implies that the mechanicum itself does have a solid understanding of how their technology and the technology of their foes works, even if they don't know how to replicate it.

I recall for example there is a fluff story of a mechanicus team reverse engineering a gauss blaster, which they get to work, but it requires an absurd amount of power to operate which raises more questions about necrons than it answers.

The admech are also able to innovate within some unmentioned guidelines since Knights, Titans, Power/Terminator armour and Imperial Robots are not STC designs. If I had to guess I would say the admech learns from STCs and attempts to use them as a basis to both innovate from and use for large-scale manufacture. Which would explain the quest for knowledge as being not a quest for the STCs themselves, but as a quest for the guidelines that they are allowed to innovate along and also finding a STC means that someone has done all the R&D and all that needs to happen is production.

They manage to maintain a system that tears open a hole in reality, into which some people walk, which then moves them through a literal Hell, before depositing them in some other location back in the starting dimension thousands of kilometers away.


I'd say that's pretty fething advanced.

They have more high end technology than any other Imperial faction.

And armies of cyborgs.

 Psienesis wrote:
They manage to maintain a system that tears open a hole in reality, into which some people walk, which then moves them through a literal Hell, before depositing them in some other location back in the starting dimension thousands of kilometers away.
I'd say that's pretty fething advanced.

Shokk attakk gun?

Shokk attack gun is better

It's ork portable and damn cool. plus Spinny Gun of Death


IOM tech is often very very advanced.

IOM's ability to UNDERSTAND this tech is very,very variable, as most of it was not invented in the last few millenia, and invention and innovation are often considered heresy. It really depends on whose fluff you read.

Ask a Techpriest in some versions to fix a jammed bolter and he'll start by rubbing scented oil all over it while whispering sweet nothings to it.

Eventually he may get around to clearing the fouled mechanism, but as a sidenote to appeasing the bolter's Machine-spirit.

Other versions have them (or the Emperor) laying hands on a broken machine and it just miraculously repairing itself...

They have rituals that work, because they are the instruction manual, in illuminated text, with added prayers and songs between each step.

Like anything else in 40k, it's up to you to decide what's really going on, as several different versions or interactions are happening at the same time, and contradict each other.


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 Psienesis wrote:
They manage to maintain a system that tears open a hole in reality, into which some people walk, which then moves them through a literal Hell, before depositing them in some other location back in the starting dimension thousands of kilometers away.


I'd say that's pretty fething advanced.

DE have this too, only theirs is about the size of a suppository

IOM ones are huge IIRC.


Orks have Tellyportas too.

Not sure if Nids or Tau use teleportation, off hand, but everyone else seems to have a way to.

It's a hard question to answer. Some will have a good understanding of their stuff, others will treat it only like religion. Of the actual technology, it was very high, but they have lost a lot of the really good stuff. Even then, the imperium tends to take the cheapest possible approch, so stuff may be less advanced than otherwise possible.

This is interpretation on my part but it's tech PRIEST for a reason.

High ranking adepts might be geniuses, but virtually the entire mechanicus are just monks following ritual.

But yeah Graham McNeil basically forgot the whole thematic point of the mechanicus, mindless technology worship and dogma.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:


But yeah Graham McNeil basically forgot the whole thematic point of the mechanicus, mindless technology worship and dogma.

Basically, stuff hasn't changed much from how common people treat complicated technology now. As a programmist i often get a request for "A magical button that i press and everything becomes good".
In 40k AdMech often has to deal with technological wonders so advanced that they don't even understand the basic phisics that makes it possible cause the knowledge was lost. And they do the only logical thing to do with it - precicely follow instructions and try to investigate how it works somehow. On the scale of 10k years it's become some sort of religion where one follows instructions without questioning. I mean the bible says: "Don't kill. Cause god says killing is bad". It doesn't say: "Don't kill. Cause violence leads to even more violence and you might get the situation worse than it had been".

 Psienesis wrote:
They manage to maintain a system that tears open a hole in reality, into which some people walk, which then moves them through a literal Hell, before depositing them in some other location back in the starting dimension thousands of kilometers away.


I'd say that's pretty fething advanced.

On the other end, even the Space Marines have night vision gear inferior to what the US Army has. The US Army... in real life.

The AdMech themselves draw a lot of inspiration from a section in Isaac Asmiov's Foundation series where the principle faction of the setting establishes a phony tech religion to allow it to infiltrate, control and undermine rival factions. To the people running the show, those "in the know," they're as talented as any other scientist/engineer, but rely on a large number of literal priests who act through rote, ceremony and tradition rather than any comprehensive knowledge, who incidentally are much more loyal to the religion than the nation/state they're theoretically serving, much to the chagrin of the antagonists at that stage in the series.

The AdMech, at its higher levels, have a considerable body of knowledge to work with, and have an excellent understanding of their technology (Mars and Ryza in particular, though Forgeworld's vary in aptitude), though they are change-adverse; just because they know how to build "lost" secrets of the Dark Age of Technology doesn't mean they want to go getting all crazy with totally new projects. The Macharius Battletank; a cheaper, mass-producible "light" Baneblade took a lifetime of R&D and 2 centuries of testing before it was accepted into service, for instance.

However, the AdMech's position of power is dependent upon controlling the flow of valuable technology; they control just about everything more complicated than a Leman Russ outside of Marine chapters, and using effectively ignorant layman to run everything through religious orthodoxy allows them to maintain their control, power and relevance. If the rank and file techpriests had a comprehensive knowledge of the Imperium's frankly stupendous pieces of equipment, keeping that control would doubtlessly be more difficult; the Imperium needs the AdMech, but I don't think they'd balk at the idea of disestablishing the whole thing if they had the means to produce advanced tech on their own.

What I base my own views on has a lot to do with the continual trend in BL and Forgeworld publications of senior Magi and techpriests having an extremely sound understanding of what their doing, whereas their minions can usually pull the right lever, if they're using the right prayer book. Additionally, a common thread in FW publications is that the Mechanicus has a remarkable tendency to "find lost artefacts and their means of production" when the Imperium is in particular dire straights, and thus the AdMech's buffer is in jeopardy. FW never writes "You just didn't notice this thing, we've been using it all along for 10k years" like when GW invents a new unit, usually they're genuinely new, or old and refound with various sideways remarks regarding how the AdMech can usually rediscover just about anything given the right incentive.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
For six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and attach a primitive radar system to a Rhino. They needed an STC to do that... from the latest Space Marine codex.

They're very good at following instructions, but their actual understanding of technology is barely ahead of the Orks.

except you're wrong.

the AA missile design was the Hunter tank, whose service length has never been mentioned. it's the Hunter tank (with the duo independantly targeting autocanons) that is noted as only being "several thousand years old" we have no clue when the Hunter entered service. it may well offically be a "always been there!" design.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
This is interpretation on my part but it's tech PRIEST for a reason.

High ranking adepts might be geniuses, but virtually the entire mechanicus are just monks following ritual.

But yeah Graham McNeil basically forgot the whole thematic point of the mechanicus, mindless technology worship and dogma.

It isn't mindless though. The idiocy of tech priests is greatly overstated. They know exponentially more than our best scientists and doctors do today. They are limited by dogma in what they are willing to create.

One tech priest in The Doom of Mymeara managed to take the wreckage of sensor towers and turn them into a host of drone scanners to monitor Betalis.

They know far more than their religion allows them to exploit.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
For six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and attach a primitive radar system to a Rhino. They needed an STC to do that... from the latest Space Marine codex.

They're very good at following instructions, but their actual understanding of technology is barely ahead of the Orks.

except you're wrong.

the AA missile design was the Hunter tank, whose service length has never been mentioned. it's the Hunter tank (with the duo independantly targeting autocanons) that is noted as only being "several thousand years old" we have no clue when the Hunter entered service. it may well offically be a "always been there!" design.

It is. The Hunter was in Epic: Armageddon years before it turned up in 40k - because it's a dedicated AA tank, and as such was needed in Epic (which always had fliers) but wasn't needed in 40k (which didn't have fliers until 6th edition). In the first Codex: Space Marines since fliers became an official part of the game.... Hunter.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
They manage to maintain a system that tears open a hole in reality, into which some people walk, which then moves them through a literal Hell, before depositing them in some other location back in the starting dimension thousands of kilometers away.


I'd say that's pretty fething advanced.

On the other end, even the Space Marines have night vision gear inferior to what the US Army has. The US Army... in real life.

They don't. Table top discards night vision for most armies to make it a rule for balance.. Marines have active night vision systems. Storm troopers do. All vehicles have passive systems standard.

Meanwhile. PhillyT will say that the Imperium has technology greater than the Old Ones.

Imperium is behind the Eldar and the Necrons. Eldar tech is likely equal to the Old Ones. I never made any claim about the Old Ones because it has never been stated. You make stuff up all the time, don't attribute falsehoods to others.

They are a bunch of Lego construction workers, with very few Master Builders (for the other parents out there who have had to sit through that movie 100 times).

 PhillyT wrote:
They have more high end technology than any other Imperial faction.

More of it, probably. But the very best technology the Imperium has is available only to the Grey Knights.

Their codex asserts that the technology of the Grey Knights is a secret not even the Mechanicus of Mars is privy to.

Infantry level yes, or at least different, but the Ad Mech has various void grenades, titans, etc. that the Grey Knights aren't deploying.

 PhillyT wrote:
Infantry level yes, or at least different, but the Ad Mech has various void grenades, titans, etc. that the Grey Knights aren't deploying.

Well, of course, but the Grey Knights do not really operate on that scale.

They have things like Dreadknights, Aegis suits, psycannons, incinerators, more advanced personal teleporters...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Infantry level yes, or at least different, but the Ad Mech has various void grenades, titans, etc. that the Grey Knights aren't deploying.

Well, of course, but the Grey Knights do not really operate on that scale.

They have things like Dreadknights, Aegis suits, psycannons, incinerators, more advanced personal teleporters...

The Admech has access to DAOT tech.

Singularity Guns >>>> Aegis Armor

Plus the Skitari themselves can get absolutely frightening the higher up you go- even giving Space Marines and Orks a run for their money in terms of dakka.