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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Asherian Command wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:

You forgot 10. 20% of money made on those who make more than a million dollars a year must go to the government and charities.


Yes, because rich people are evil and it's ok to steal from them.


No its more of the fact that they should pay more taxes than someone who makes 100k, not the same..


You're describing the current system. The only difference is the % of the top rate (or maybe the re-imposition of a millionaire rate).


Yes but where there not cutbacks a while ago during the bush adminstration?

That were massive cutbacks for the wealthy?

I know there were was a discrepancy somewhere. I mean I am not an economist, just a theorist in this case.

So it may be my misunderstanding of the whole issue. We touched on it quite often in my Political Science Classes. Which was also not really an introduction but an indepth study of economics in the united states compared to other countries. (Seeing as there is more white collar crime nowadays than any other time.)

But that does not mean my views were skewed. I think it should be a flat precentage on those who make millions of dollar a year, and they have to pay more in terms of taxes like 20% of their money intake. Which is quite a bit if your making a million dollars.


The top of the tax brackets pays plenty in taxes:
Spoiler:

(FYI: if you want to debate this some more, create a thread! )

Unless, you'd think Obama should unilaterally decree that the rich should pay more.


This may sound like Hersey. But obama does not match my Views. And he is apparently 'left' in this country.

It is quite skewed in this country it is kind of hilarious.

I agree, but then why do we have the top 1% dealio.

?? someone has to be the top 1%. o.O Right?


I mean Bush did it, Regean did, George Washington did it.

Okay... I need to stop you there...

What Regan and Bush did were NOTHING of the sort Obama is claiming he can do. What we're basically talking about is Deferred Enforced Departures (ded).

Most of these deds done by prior Presidents have been done on a country-specific basis, usually in response to war, civil unrest, or natural disasters.

Now? It is not country-specific... nor does it arise from a critical humanitarian emergency in the home country.

It's done in open defiance of Congress.

And This Well Respected Constitutional Scholar™ has stated that he cannot do this.

I don't get the kerfuffle of a president doing what the congress refuses to do. Act. I mean this congress has only shown to be moronic and know little of what their people want. Especially after they tried to push a certain bill. That will go nameless and was attacked for being.... not well written.

That still doesn't excuse the President for unilaterally acting on his own.

But hey my opinion is moot because I think no child left behind actually leaves more children behind than it helps. And I also think the immigration is a smaller issue compared to education and economics. But again, I think the economic system should be reformed into a newer system. So it is both controlled in certain areas, (like public water, food, fire, police, security, healthcare etc.) but everything else is controlled by the free market.

Opinions are cool.

Because you know Socialism its evil.

Because boot-strapping is bad?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 20:10:00


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 whembly wrote:

Okay... I need to stop you there...

What Regan and Bush did were NOTHING of the sort Obama is claiming he can do. What we're basically talking about is Deferred Enforced Departures (ded).

Most of these deds done by prior Presidents have been done on a country-specific basis, usually in response to war, civil unrest, or natural disasters.

Now? It is not country-specific... nor does it arise from a critical humanitarian emergency in the home country.

It's done in open defiance of Congress.

And This Well Respected Constitutional Scholar™ has stated that he cannot do this.


You know how this works right? Legal scholars on both sides will be crawling out of the woodwork so, to play devil's advocate, and present the other side, here:
Pushing back on Republicans who have blasted Obama’s action as unconstitutional and unlawful, the signatories include Columbia University President Lee Bollinger, Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe, conservative legal scholar Eric Posner, and former Yale Law School Dean and former State Department Legal Advisor Harold Hongju Koh.

“While we differ among ourselves on many issues relating to Presidential power and immigration policy, we are all of the view that these actions are lawful,” the professors wrote. “They are exercises of prosecutorial discretion that are consistent with governing law and with the policies that Congress has expressed in the statutes that it has enacted.”


If you look into the backgrounds of these people, they're not left-wing nutjobs looking to turn the US into a communist paradise.

I have conflicted views on this. On one hand, my wife is Japanese and we had to spend a year and a half apart after we were married while her paperwork made its slow way through several different federal offices so it makes me angry (putting it lightly) when people can just willy-nilly jump line in front of all of the people patiently waiting. On the other hand, we have limited federal resources to secure 8000 miles of border and I'd rather these resources were focused on kicking criminals out rather than trolling neighborhoods for families. Now, if we're talking Congress acting like big boys and girls and actually ponying up the cash to secure the border, I'm all in; otherwise, it's about allocation of resources. Bloomberg estimated last year that another $28billion per year would be needed to make a meaningful impact on illegal immigration, the justice department is severely undermanned and underresourced for this.

I'm all for solutions, I'm all against more mud-slinging and nothing much coming out of DC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 20:50:18


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 whembly wrote:

I mean Bush did it, Regean did, George Washington did it.

Okay... I need to stop you there...

What Regan and Bush did were NOTHING of the sort Obama is claiming he can do. What we're basically talking about is Deferred Enforced Departures (ded).

Most of these deds done by prior Presidents have been done on a country-specific basis, usually in response to war, civil unrest, or natural disasters.

Now? It is not country-specific... nor does it arise from a critical humanitarian emergency in the home country.

It's done in open defiance of Congress.

And This Well Respected Constitutional Scholar™ has stated that he cannot do this.

I don't get the kerfuffle of a president doing what the congress refuses to do. Act. I mean this congress has only shown to be moronic and know little of what their people want. Especially after they tried to push a certain bill. That will go nameless and was attacked for being.... not well written.

That still doesn't excuse the President for unilaterally acting on his own.

But hey my opinion is moot because I think no child left behind actually leaves more children behind than it helps. And I also think the immigration is a smaller issue compared to education and economics. But again, I think the economic system should be reformed into a newer system. So it is both controlled in certain areas, (like public water, food, fire, police, security, healthcare etc.) but everything else is controlled by the free market.

Opinions are cool.

Because you know Socialism its evil.

Because boot-strapping is bad?


Are you also ignoring history it has been done before. Congress does nothing and the president gets involved. During the early 19th century. The Irish were illegal imigriants in fact they like the current illegal immigraint problem happened because of famine and issues in their country.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/03/17/the-irish-the-illegal-immigrants-of-yesteryear/

The article talks about the parrells between the two. We are dealing with people here, who are resources in this country. So getting more resources is not bad. We have enough food to last us for quite sometime.

Immigrating to the united states is a pain in the arse. This is something that many people can attest to. We even have translators stuck in the middle east currently who have snuck into the united states and are techincally illegal. Yet they served our country but were never approved because of Buecratic bull .


?? someone has to be the top 1%. o.O Right?


Not always. You could be the top 30%. You don't need 1% of the population talking for the many. That doesn't allow for equality or freedom.

That still doesn't excuse the President for unilaterally acting on his own.


While I agree. There are examples of it happening and those were not stopped. Because they were republican presidents. Whenever a democratic president does it. He hits a wall whenever it is a conservative congress.

Opinions are cool.


Well. Yes, they are. But it doesn't mean my opinion and your opinion can't be both wrong. We are human after all.

Because boot-strapping is bad?


It doesn't work all the time. I mean if we look at examples in history lifting someone by their bootstraps teaching someone how to fish to become self sufficient doesn't work if that person has no idea where the hell to get fishing supplies. You can't teach someone how to fish, if there is no readily available place to get fish.

Socialism is an interesting system though and it has merits and negatives to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 20:41:36


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 whembly wrote:
Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.


That I could agree with. I think the only disruptive peoples are the ones who abuse the systems set up for the people who need it. But we really can't tell who is doing it.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 whembly wrote:
Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.


Good idea, one that is supposed to already be in operation, but the complete execution is unfeasible. Too many of the jobs that illegal immigrants take are cash-based. Having worked in construction, during and after college, what happens is that if anyone questions your workforce, your books show that the Joe Smiths and Bob Johnsons on staff are really hard workers while you have 30 people with names like Jorge and Jesus working there off of the books.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.


Good idea, one that is supposed to already be in operation, but the complete execution is unfeasible. Too many of the jobs that illegal immigrants take are cash-based. Having worked in construction, during and after college, what happens is that if anyone questions your workforce, your books show that the Joe Smiths and Bob Johnsons on staff are really hard workers while you have 30 people with names like Jorge and Jesus working there off of the books.

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 20:57:52


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 whembly wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.


Huh. I remember having an argument over this, reminds me of the debate with the death penalty where people say that if people are given more of a penalty for doing things that might also prevent people committing murder or heinous crimes.

If you are a desperate person no matter what laws are around you will break them.

If you are in the heat of passion you don't care about the law, you only care about killing and vengeance or something along those lines.

It only works if it is enforced and it probably won't. The problem is the root source. Where are all these people coming from Mexico. Why? Drug Wars, fighting and poverty. Another way to ensure that they don't come to our country is to make their home more appealing by helping that country.

Oh my goodness! Baffling huh?

Helping people might solve our problems. We should also get rid of our strict borders, do what Europe does. They have a very superior system. The Americas should band together to become equal to the EU.

The benefits would be endless. From Unity, to more protection, to more wealth, to also being a new hegemonic power. This would also increase stability and the more of the liklihood of the south americas wanting to become more stable because they want to join in the wealth.

This idea has been thrown around for quite a bit, and would fix alot of issues especially among the illegal immigrants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:18:53


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 whembly wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.


Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Asherian Command wrote:


Huh. I remember having an argument over this, reminds me of the debate with the death penalty where people say that if people are given more of a penalty for doing things that might also prevent people committing murder or heinous crimes.

If you are a desperate person no matter what laws are around you will break them.

If you are in the heat of passion you don't care about the law, you only care about killing and vengeance or something along those lines.

It only works if it is enforced and it probably won't. The problem is the root source. Where are all these people coming from Mexico. Why? Drug Wars, fighting and poverty. Another way to ensure that they don't come to our country is to make their home more appealing by helping that country.

Oh my goodness! Baffling huh?

Helping people might solve our problems. We should also get rid of our strict borders, do what Europe does. They have a very superior system. The Americas should band together to become equal to the EU


We tried that in Central America and all we did is learn that we suck at nation building. We can pour limitless resources into corrupt countries and all we'll do is line the pockets of the people we're trying to fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:20:39


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 agnosto wrote:

Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.

And heavens forbid that you start talking about people presenting their documentation...

Well never mind. People like Whembly only give a crap when it inconveniences them.
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Kanluwen wrote:

And heavens forbid that you start talking about people presenting their documentation...



   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 agnosto wrote:

Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.

And heavens forbid that you start talking about people presenting their documentation...

Well never mind. People like Whembly only give a crap when it inconveniences them.


People just don't seem to get that you can't have everything you want from the federal government without "big government". Just imagine for a minute a double-size department of justice.....brrrrrr....

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

We tried that in Central America and all we did is learn that we suck at nation building. We can pour limitless resources into corrupt countries and all we'll do is line the pockets of the people we're trying to fight.


Thats not what I was suggesting XD

Read it again.

I didn't basically mean support them with monetary gifts. It is called lead by example. Basically purpose something that would open up borders between countries, this would inspire other countries to follow in the united states' foot steps.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.


Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.


And that is the reason why nothing has happened yet.

The same crowd that wants something done about illegal immigration is also against everything that would be required to accomplish anything and we would have the same arguments that we always have.

More rules for businesses? "Regulations are bad", "it hurts the job creators", "it would reduce income and in the long run it would result in less income for the government and increase the deficit".
Want to follow business trucks around? "Government can't spy on us", "focus on real criminals", "hiring more people for enforcement is expensive and will increase the deficit".

The actions needed to actually do what a lot of conservatives want done go against many o f the principles that they believe in. Which is why nothing has been done with regards to reform even though many folks in the republican caucus are for reform.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 Asherian Command wrote:
We tried that in Central America and all we did is learn that we suck at nation building. We can pour limitless resources into corrupt countries and all we'll do is line the pockets of the people we're trying to fight.


Thats not what I was suggesting XD

Read it again.

I didn't basically mean support them with monetary gifts. It is called lead by example. Basically purpose something that would open up borders between countries, this would inspire other countries to follow in the united states' foot steps.


We did that. We built factories, created jobs, improved healthcare, trained the workforce then we even warred against their drug lords, it's still a cesspool.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

That is why most moderate-thinking Americans are against the idea of having to carry identification, because that is exactly what it sounds like.

This beyond the fact that there's a huge industry in providing illegal immigrants with falsified documentation/stolen SSNs/etc that will pass both casual inspection as well as the sorts of inspection that an employer performs to prove citizenship.

We did that. We built factories, created jobs, improved healthcare, trained the workforce then we even warred against their drug lords, it's still a cesspool


Actually, we half-assedly did that by arming one gang of druglords to fight another gang of druglords, and then stopped doing it when it seemed like it wasn't working, rather than actually supporting reformist politicians because said populist reformists were Socialists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:33:56


It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 d-usa wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.


Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.


And that is the reason why nothing has happened yet.

The same crowd that wants something done about illegal immigration is also against everything that would be required to accomplish anything and we would have the same arguments that we always have.

More rules for businesses? "Regulations are bad", "it hurts the job creators", "it would reduce income and in the long run it would result in less income for the government and increase the deficit".
Want to follow business trucks around? "Government can't spy on us", "focus on real criminals", "hiring more people for enforcement is expensive and will increase the deficit".

The actions needed to actually do what a lot of conservatives want done go against many o f the principles that they believe in. Which is why nothing has been done with regards to reform even though many folks in the republican caucus are for reform.


Basically. Cognitive dissonance comes to mind to be frank.

Though this might have to deal with the fact that people have their ideals screwed up.

This political sidings remind me of Bioshock Infinite. I mean the propaganda spread by it does.

The left leaning at least have some sense. The right does have people that are trying to reform. But right now it is really hard to tell the difference between right and left.

The rest of the world is already light years ahead of the US in terms of social resolutions and economics that it is quite sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 agnosto wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
We tried that in Central America and all we did is learn that we suck at nation building. We can pour limitless resources into corrupt countries and all we'll do is line the pockets of the people we're trying to fight.


Thats not what I was suggesting XD

Read it again.

I didn't basically mean support them with monetary gifts. It is called lead by example. Basically purpose something that would open up borders between countries, this would inspire other countries to follow in the united states' foot steps.


We did that. We built factories, created jobs, improved healthcare, trained the workforce then we even warred against their drug lords, it's still a cesspool.


No. We didn't. That doesn't even help pulling by the bootstraps only works if you teach people correctly. They are developing nations. It would take years. Not months.

Its called long term planning which seems to be lost on some americans :/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:33:04


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 d-usa wrote:

And that is the reason why nothing has happened yet.

The same crowd that wants something done about illegal immigration is also against everything that would be required to accomplish anything and we would have the same arguments that we always have.

More rules for businesses? "Regulations are bad", "it hurts the job creators", "it would reduce income and in the long run it would result in less income for the government and increase the deficit".
Want to follow business trucks around? "Government can't spy on us", "focus on real criminals", "hiring more people for enforcement is expensive and will increase the deficit".

The actions needed to actually do what a lot of conservatives want done go against many o f the principles that they believe in. Which is why nothing has been done with regards to reform even though many folks in the republican caucus are for reform.


My tinfoil hat side wants me to believe that these people know all of this but they've got several camps to cater to; there's the "They're taking our jobs!" camp of blue-collar, red-blooded 'merican and there's the corporate camp that wants tax breaks and loose regulations, there's the small government camp that wants to dismantle all but a few federal agencies, and the tea party derpheads that just want freedom as long as it doesn't hurt them.

Anyone who examines the Republican party closely realizes that they have a major identity issue that they are actively avoiding dealing with from fear of alienating any of these camps.

Don't get me wrong, Dems has plenty of issues too but they at least know how to work together most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Asherian Command wrote:


No. We didn't. That doesn't even help pulling by the bootstraps only works if you teach people correctly. They are developing nations. It would take years. Not months.

Its called long term planning which seems to be lost on some americans :/


It goes all the way back to the 1930's and FDR's Good Neighbor policy. The problem is that along the way there were administration changes, changes in stance and several diplomatic mistakes etc that resulted in most of the central american countries despising the US...usually for good reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:36:52


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
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I agree the Dems in general, seem to do a better job pulling together, but I think that with a 2 party system, both the dems and pubs are trapped in a country over 300 million strong with an extremely diverse range of interests, and they're constantly playing 52 pickup trying to keep as many pleased as they can.


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 agnosto wrote:
It goes all the way back to the 1930's and FDR's Good Neighbor policy. The problem is that along the way there were administration changes, changes in stance and several diplomatic mistakes etc that resulted in most of the central american countries despising the US...usually for good reason.


Yeah we kind of fethed that one up for ourselves. Also something to blame on the CIA Great job guys (I know you're reading this! *puts on tin foil hat*)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:39:55


   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 d-usa wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 agnosto wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I disagree with it being unfeasible.

I've been working at my job for over 15 years... and just THIS YEAR ALONE, I had to go to my HR office and show them my MO drivers license, SS card and my birth certificate to PROVE that I'm a citizen, and thus legally able to work here.



So, to say that ICE personnel cant channel Sherlock Holmes seems dubious to me.


Man, your company is really slow...

Still, cash jobs are the bulk of what is worked and there is literally no current way to verify off-the-book employees short of following company trucks around.

Then do that.

The goal isn't to catch EVERY one of them.

The goal is to make the penalty so high, that these companies WON'T risk it.


Limited resources. Remember, we're in a period of "small government" and still have sequestration hanging over our heads. You want real border security, you'll have to pay for it.


And that is the reason why nothing has happened yet.

The same crowd that wants something done about illegal immigration is also against everything that would be required to accomplish anything and we would have the same arguments that we always have.

More rules for businesses? "Regulations are bad", "it hurts the job creators", "it would reduce income and in the long run it would result in less income for the government and increase the deficit".
Want to follow business trucks around? "Government can't spy on us", "focus on real criminals", "hiring more people for enforcement is expensive and will increase the deficit".

The actions needed to actually do what a lot of conservatives want done go against many o f the principles that they believe in. Which is why nothing has been done with regards to reform even though many folks in the republican caucus are for reform.


Then again, since controlling immigration is actually a responsibility given to the Feds in the constitution, perhaps some conservatives would like to see resources channeled away from crap the feds should not be involved in and instead used towards things like this... One could make the argument that MOAR gov't may not be the solution, but instead a govt that focuses on the correct things could be a solution.

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That's why I think that Boehner is pro-reform and he has a bi-partisan majority in the house that would be able to pass a bill today. I don't think it's a case of the GOP being anti-reform. It's just a case of a fractured GOP having such divided loyalties from different segments that they can't come up with a bill that wouldn't alienate at least one of the groups that leans republican.
   
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Throw in that the mainline Republicans are scared shitless of a Tea Party take over within the party, and you have another reason they're really reluctant to even try testing their positions. Either way the mainline guys go, and Tea Partiers can swoop and start userping them by taking the other side. Rock. Hard place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 21:59:57


   
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Runnin up on ya.

 d-usa wrote:
That's why I think that Boehner is pro-reform and he has a bi-partisan majority in the house that would be able to pass a bill today. I don't think it's a case of the GOP being anti-reform. It's just a case of a fractured GOP having such divided loyalties from different segments that they can't come up with a bill that wouldn't alienate at least one of the groups that leans republican.


This. I'm amazed Boehner's not dead yet with all the crap he's had to do to keep the party together in the House.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
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Chicago, Illinois

 agnosto wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
That's why I think that Boehner is pro-reform and he has a bi-partisan majority in the house that would be able to pass a bill today. I don't think it's a case of the GOP being anti-reform. It's just a case of a fractured GOP having such divided loyalties from different segments that they can't come up with a bill that wouldn't alienate at least one of the groups that leans republican.


This. I'm amazed Boehner's not dead yet with all the crap he's had to do to keep the party together in the House.



You can see he is done with the BS. I wouldn't mind seeing him as President. But instead being a bit more progressive than his compatriots. :/

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 Breotan wrote:
The details were a little underwhelming.

We wouldn't need a boarder fence if we'd just enforce the laws on people hiring illegals. A lot fewer people would be crossing if there were no easy jobs available.

See, that's talking sense. Which is why Washington will never consider it Many of the illegal immigrants in this country are here for economic reasons. Remove the economic incentive and the problem will resolve itself

 d-usa wrote:

The logistics for getting rid of all illegals is the same as getting rid of all guns: it is never going to be a realistic expectation so there is no point in even entertaining the thought. Everyone needs to realize that there is no way to ever get rid of them, so any plan has to include them.

Except, as detailed above, people here for economic reasons will not remain if their economic opportunities are no longer viable. You cannot do the same with an inanimate object

 Asherian Command wrote:
A lot of people that are illegal immigrants are people running away from the drug war in mexico. I mean they are technically refugees then.

Then come to the US, present yourself to a Border Agent, and claim asylum. There are programs and assistance available for genuine asylum seekers.

 d-usa wrote:
Obama might be an egotistical megalomaniac, but he is a constitutional lawyer and not an idiot. There has to be some reason why he thinks he can do what he did.

He is a Constitutional lawyer, who also said that he could not do the actions that he has just done


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 Frazzled wrote:
Under the "Obama Dctrine" any president can now unilaterally act on major issues if he/she disagrees with Congress. Thats a nice step to dictatorship.

And this is a serious issue

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 22:20:49


 
   
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Then come to the US, present yourself to a Border Agent, and claim asylum. There are programs and assistance available for genuine asylum seekers.


Yes because people who are fleeing their country in complete fear will be able to do that. Some can, but most can't. The amount of rejection that the US Gives out to people is staggering.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
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 whembly wrote:
Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.

Easily done too. Expand e-verify. FInes and jail time for those knowingly hiring illegal immigrants

 
   
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Runnin up on ya.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Maybe you should ask for a refund from the government for all that time/money you your efforts.

Seriously though, like Kan said earlier, just hammer those employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Disrupt the incentive.

Easily done too. Expand e-verify. FInes and jail time for those knowingly hiring illegal immigrants


Thanks, I couldn't remember the system that was put in place to stem the hiring of illegal immigrants.

The issue still stands that e-verify doesn't do spit to stop someone from hiring off-the-books labor. Your books say you have 20 employees but you're actually paying 40 or more; not even the IRS will catch that.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
 
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