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It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
So you have never just pulled out a unit just because it could be fun.
I am not saying Murderfang is a "Competitive Unit", but it could [note the keyword: Could] be made viable if time was taken to try and figure out how to use him.
I have I think found one way, but nobody truly took notice of how to get him in to an Assault with only having to deal with Overwatch fire. Put him an allied Stormraven.
I posted a list made to get him down and into a Assault I got, "Here is the problem with the list, lets make these A, B, C, Changes." I got "That List Sucks and it will di instantly and it will die in the moment it shows up...and by the way Murderfang Sucks." At time I feel I am the only one who is trying to figure out how to make him work rather than put him on the shelf.
And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
I think the main point is that this is a "Murderfang review" thread, and most people have had bad experiences with him. If this was something more like "how can I get Murderfang into combat" or "how can I build an okay list around Murderfang" then it might be a bit different.
Personally, I think Murderfang is a cool "fun" unit. He'd be great in a podding threat overload list, and that occasional game where he actually kills a whole unit himself would be priceless. It really depends on how "competitive" your opponents tend to be and how silly you want your list to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/29 22:02:21
What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem anpu, is that to make some units work, requires points investment beyond their owe to make them good, which is better spent on better units
So you have never just pulled out a unit just because it could be fun.
I am not saying Murderfang is a "Competitive Unit", but it could [note the keyword: Could] be made viable if time was taken to try and figure out how to use him.
I have I think found one way, but nobody truly took notice of how to get him in to an Assault with only having to deal with Overwatch fire. Put him an allied Stormraven.
I posted a list made to get him down and into a Assault I got, "Here is the problem with the list, lets make these A, B, C, Changes." I got "That List Sucks and it will di instantly and it will die in the moment it shows up...and by the way Murderfang Sucks." At time I feel I am the only one who is trying to figure out how to make him work rather than put him on the shelf.
And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
And you will find yourself disapointed TBH. Look at him, yeah, he gets ten attacks on the charge but he will rarely make it them. You have few options. Walking him isnt one, because he will die. Droppoding isnt either because he is CC, so he will die net turn, because he is in melta range or assault range of something infinitly more scary, like a knight.
He is a CC dreadnaught, which is uite frankly terrible in this edition. If he had melta, MAYBE, but im sorry, he isnt that good.
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Anpu42 wrote: And no to me "He it not worth his Points" is not an argument, because if WE can figure out how to make him work he will be worth his points.
But I think we've already established this. You can try target saturation, but he still sucks. You can try dropping him in late and using other units to tie up units that can hurt him, but he still sucks.
Those are your options if you really desperately want to use him, but I think we've already gone through the iterations of WHY he isn't worth his points.
It's not enough to tell us we need to open our minds to the possibilities of using Murderface, you have to give viable options that show us the possibilities and aren't just easily countered by 9 out of 10 armies you're likely to (murder)face.
I do like the Stormraven idea though. I've said why I think target saturation doesn't magically make him good on previous pages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/30 04:06:45
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Three meltas in a Grey Hunter unit? Explain your witchcraft!
On topic: I think Murderfang can be a fun unit. But when I say fun, I mean some kind of game with friends where we made up some crazy rules and objectives or something. It has to be admitted that if he got in CC it'd be great to see him shred through his enemy like a Wolfy blender.
Torga_DW wrote: What exactly is a fun unit, though? Performs badly on the table? Has lots of special rules? Has a face that looks like murderface? I don't understand how certain (sometimes badly) underperforming units get hit with the 'fun' brush. With enough investiture they can become sorta viable. Fun is subjective and not knocking anyone for liking certain units/combos, but sometimes it seems like fun is what bad units are called. I love dreadnoughts, i have ~6 of them, but i wouldn't call them 'fun'.
In this case, fun because he's slow and easy to kill, but if he gets into combat he will shred through things with ease. Fun is kind of subjective. I'd say 10 man Grey Hunter units with 3 meltas and a Wolf Banner are "fun" for me, because it's too much of a points investment for a serious list, but when I'm playing casually, small, powerful squads are my bread and butter.
Three meltas in a Grey Hunter unit? Explain your witchcraft!
On topic: I think Murderfang can be a fun unit. But when I say fun, I mean some kind of game with friends where we made up some crazy rules and objectives or something. It has to be admitted that if he got in CC it'd be great to see him shred through his enemy like a Wolfy blender.
2x Melta and the Wolfguard's combi-melta. You could throw in more combi-meltas with an IC too, theoretically.
Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
Anpu42 wrote: It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
Yeah....try starting a thread about playing CSMlol. "Everything is awful, your book is terrible, your only hope is unbound with all heldrakes"
Anpu42 wrote: It is a shame to that every time someone wants to try to make a "Not So Good Unit" work we get those who would rather berate it and say just leave it on the shelf rather than use there brain ant try to make it work.
Yeah....try starting a thread about playing CSMlol. "Everything is awful, your book is terrible, your only hope is unbound with all heldrakes"
Nurgle is good. I'm a tzeentch man myself, glad i'm not a khorne guy though.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Dreadnoughts simply don't work well for target saturation because they're too easy to kill. If murderface drops too far away to charge the next turn (either because he's trying to get cover or because you have space to simply move away) then you're best off shooting the other Dreads, if Murderface drops close enough to charge you next turn, just shoot him.
It's not really a threat when you can decide at any time "ok, I'll kill that one now"
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
Thats the inherent problem with melee vs shooting. Short of bad luck, the shooting guys get to drop the big threats first, one of which will be murderface. Look at it from the other side of the table: murderface and 5 other dreadnoughts pod down next to you. Who is going to cause the most damage the fastest? Who are you going to shoot first?
I'd say the shooting dreads will cause damage before Murderfang and would be force fed any Interceptor shots I had to try to prevent that.
Dreadnoughts simply don't work well for target saturation because they're too easy to kill. If murderface drops too far away to charge the next turn (either because he's trying to get cover or because you have space to simply move away) then you're best off shooting the other Dreads, if Murderface drops close enough to charge you next turn, just shoot him.
It's not really a threat when you can decide at any time "ok, I'll kill that one now"
Also a big issue is even if he does luckily get into combat he will most likely destroy something worth much less than him in the first round of combat and then be stuck in the enemies lines with little to no defense for a turn, which will most likely mean his destruction.
Toofast wrote: Perhaps we aren't suggesting ways to make him work because we've tried every solution with him and other dreads and none of them work. Getting a 200~ point model blown up before it does a damn thing is not my idea of fun. Neither is investing even more points to put him in a flyer.
Have you tried him with lots of other droppods and fast mellee threats? Or have you just thrown 1-2 pods of something?
When I take drop pods, I take as many as I can. I've tried him in an all drop pod army with 5 man GH squads in pods and a lascannon/Missile dread in a pod. Any time he lands close enough to charge the next turn, he gets blown up. No enemy with half a brain is going to sit there and let Murderface charge into their front line.
First came in the storm raven did a little damage, but then was vector struck by flyrant, murderface was immobilized and then shot to death by flyrant.
Second came in managed to drop killed a cheap unit of CSM and then he was meltaed/lascannoned to death.
Third time did not come in until turn 4 and by that point he was pretty much useless.
TL;DR
Even with the storm raven still not that great a unit, and a regular furioso would be better.
Well one and three do not look like it was Murderfang's Fault.
Number 2, I was not there to know the exact Tactical Situation, but why was he not put to kill off the Melta's and/or Las Cannons unless they were everywhere?
They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/01 18:45:34
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
Kinda off-topic, but always felt like flying transports has always been a gamble (other than necron), but if the flier goes down then usually the units inside it will also go down.
oz of the north wrote: They were everywhere, my opponents brings a lot of oblits and all csm units are 10 man strong with melta and lascannon. In this case assaulted a 10 man unit lost a hull point in overwatch and then crushed them and next turn was blown off the board. Assaulted the 10 man unit because of setup was only unit to assault.
Also the 1st and the 3rd were applicable in this instance where it was the method that Murderface could be possibly useful, in both cases were big issues, if he is attached to the storm raven and gets shot down, he can take serious damage and possibly become useless and by being attached to the storm raven that is the danger you take with reserves where he can be delayed to the point he will be useless.
Well if I can get a game or two in before Christmas I will defiantly give him a try with the Stormraven and a :landing pad and see how that goes, but my luck had been bad with flyers recently.
Kinda off-topic, but always felt like flying transports has always been a gamble (other than necron), but if the flier goes down then usually the units inside it will also go down.
It is not that off topic...
Yes they can be, I have never had one explode yet, though I have lost a Stormwolf reduced to 0HP while still acting as a skimmer, that was annoying.
One Trick I have been trying is to Start out my Stormwolf/Stormraven on a Skyshield Landing Pad with "Ready for Take off." This has gotten me some Turn Two Assaults with my Ulrik/Blood Claw Combo.
Turn 1: Start on the Pad with the Shield up Giving you a 4++ Save. On your turn you move Max Distance on the Movement and Shooting Phases.
Turn 2: Move 6", Disembark 6" and Assault.
I am thinking of loading up the Stormraven with either Vanguard Vets or Wolf Guard and Murderfang. This should give me a Turn 2 Assault with Murderfang with only Overwatch to Deal with.
With Murderface being on the stormraven and using the ready for take-off rule. The one biggest issue I see with this, is if the enemy focuses on the storm raven and kills it before it can take off, if you go second. Murderface will pretty much become useless. A walking assault dreadnought will not do much.
oz of the north wrote: With Murderface being on the stormraven and using the ready for take-off rule. The one biggest issue I see with this, is if the enemy focuses on the storm raven and kills it before it can take off, if you go second. Murderface will pretty much become useless. A walking assault dreadnought will not do much.
The one time I had this issue so far was I received at lot of Auto-Cannon fire that bounce of either my Armor or the 4++ Shields, the a lucky shot from the Baskalisk got a ing Immobilized hit. From now on I am putting it at a little bit of an Angle so it can fire at more of the Battlefield.
Most of the shots from his Las-Cannons were aimed at Arjac and his Precision Whack-A-Mole Drill team in their LRC, that either missed or Just bounced.
Anpu, I am looking forward to hearing how Murderfang in the Raven works. I am still optimistic about it and would love to hear some good news for my Wolf opponents to try new tactics out.
Bonus is 1x vet squad with all melta guns / combi melta
First turn, 2x shield dreads drop, they soak up the initial fire power and cause serious pressure turn 1. Next the vet squad and murderfang drop, the vets go for the ideal unit that could kill murderfang.
Another part of this strategy is there needs to be threat overload, so typical best option with be TWC pushing up the center to close the gap quickly,
Between all that stuff pushing at once, something will live and do lots of damage.
EDIT: Crusader with Arjac is always good also
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 18:35:03
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ing Immobilized hit. From now on I am putting it at a little bit of an Angle so it can fire at more of the Battlefield.