Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.

Your point has been disproven.

Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?

My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.

Your point has been disproven.

Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?

My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.

Perhaps you should scroll back and read. But this post shows that it is clear that you are not arguing the rule of Monstrous Flock, but are instead trying to restart the debate over whether FMCs can Deep Strike since they "move like jump."

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.

Your point has been disproven.

Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?

My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.

Perhaps you should scroll back and read. But this post shows that it is clear that you are not arguing the rule of Monstrous Flock, but are instead trying to restart the debate over whether FMCs can Deep Strike since they "move like jump."

This is because in logic it is extremely relevant what premises we argue from.

In track A, Deep Strike is independent of Swoop. In track B, Deep Strike is dependent on Swoop. That is obviously extremely relevant to the argument that follows.

The ridiculous position is yours, since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.

At any rate, there will be TWO answers to this problem (at least) depending on which track you argue from.

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.

False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.

There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.

Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.

since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.

Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.

False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.

Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

And MF is the more advanced rule since its a codex rule. Your argument fails again.

Fragile wrote:
There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.

Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.

since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.

Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.

It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.

Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.

since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.

Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.

It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.

You cannot choose to do something that you are forbidden to do, just because you were able to do it through a different special rule. It does not matter whether you choose the flight mode in movement or the flight mode is chosen for you by your deployment method. You are disallowed from Swooping. Deep Striking puts you into Swoop mode. Therefore you are disallowed from Deep Striking.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.

Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.

since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.

Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.

It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.

You cannot choose to do something that you are forbidden to do, just because you were able to do it through a different special rule. It does not matter whether you choose the flight mode in movement or the flight mode is chosen for you by your deployment method. You are disallowed from Swooping. Deep Striking puts you into Swoop mode. Therefore you are disallowed from Deep Striking.

Deep Strike happens. And then Swoop mode happens. That then conflicts with MF rule. The BRB does not say undo and go back until the conflict goes away. That way of resolving a conflict is not in the BRB. The BRB says apply Basic Vs Advanced to resolve conflicts.

I am not forbidden from Deep Striking. Something happens AFTER deep striking that is in conflict with MF. Sure enough, the rules let me resolve that conflict.

Deep strike does not just "happen"

You choose to DS with the unit, knowing full well that it arrives in Swoop mode which is forbidden. Continuing any further is simply cheating. The only way to bring them on from reserves is to come on from the board edge.

You are prohibited from doing A.

B causes A.

Therefore you cannot do B either.

Fragile wrote:
Deep strike does not just "happen"

You choose to DS with the unit, knowing full well that it arrives in Swoop mode which is forbidden. Continuing any further is simply cheating. The only way to bring them on from reserves is to come on from the board edge.

You are prohibited from doing A.

B causes A.

Therefore you cannot do B either.

I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens. There are then after the Deep Strike happens two conflicting rules telling me what mode the Flyrant is in. Luckily, the BRB provides a rule for just that kind of scenario.

If a player is allowed to Deep Strike by the rules then they can Deep Strike. If Deep Strike causes, after the fact, a conflict in the state of things between a Basic and an Advanced rule, then guess which rule kicks in to settle the conflict?

col_impact wrote:
I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens.

And therein lies your failure. The rule you apply first is the Codex rule. That forbids DS. Anything that lets you DS you can no longer use unless it specifically states that it overcomes the MF restriction.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens.

And therein lies your failure. The rule you apply first is the Codex rule. That forbids DS. Anything that lets you DS you can no longer use unless it specifically states that it overcomes the MF restriction.

Huh? Per FMC rules, I have Deep Strike (this is the premise of the A track). I go ahead and Deep Strike. After the fact of Deep Strike I am put into Swoop mode. This conflicts with MF "only Glide" rule. Okay, there is a conflict. What do I do? Basic V Advanced to the rescue. The BRB does not tell me to go back and undo steps. It does not tell me to undo so I cannot. I resolve the mode conflict with the Basic Vs Advanced rule.

The MF rule does not forbid DS. The MF rule exactly says only Glide which ONLY comes into conflict AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. I cannot undo the Deep Strike. The rules do not allow me to undo. The rules tell me to resolve conflicts between sources with the Basic Vs Advanced Rule. I have no trouble following that rule. I have followed rules all the way through.

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.

False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.

Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Except you're ignoring two facts

A) There is NO CONFLICT.
B) If there was a conflict (and there's not), the 'Monstrous Flock' rule would win out.

Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.

Which, of course, there is no allowance to do.

Except he has no support for it transforming an action that requires the model to be in Swooping Flight mode to be done in Gliding Flight mode.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I haven't broken a rule.

Yes you have. This is the rule you've broken:

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.

The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.

False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.

Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Except you're ignoring two facts

A) There is NO CONFLICT.
B) If there was a conflict (and there's not), the 'Monstrous Flock' rule would win out.

If there is no conflict then that works too. The rules as written (following track A) lead to CO-EXISTING rules.

Deep Strike happens. FMC is in Swoop mode after the Deep Strike. The Flyrant can "only use Glide mode". I guess then you only have to worry about it if you are called upon to Jink, which If those rules co-exist means you cannot Jink since the FMC can only use Glide mode which it is not in until next movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.

Which, of course, there is no allowance to do.

The Deep Strike rule allows this (this is of course following the A track premise)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.

Nothing prevents the Deep Strike. Any conflict, if it happens at all, happens after the fact of the Deep Strike. We have rules for resolving conflicts and they do not involve going back in steps. They involve hammering Advanced over Basic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
Except he has no support for it transforming an action that requires the model to be in Swooping Flight mode to be done in Gliding Flight mode.

Deep Strike does not require the Swooping mode (see the A track premise)

If you want to debate the A versus B premises that is a whole different debate, but definitely the more important one to deal with.

col_impact wrote:
[
Huh? Per FMC rules, I have Deep Strike (this is the premise of the A track). I go ahead and Deep Strike. After the fact of Deep Strike I am put into Swoop mode. This conflicts with MF "only Glide" rule. Okay, there is a conflict. What do I do? Basic V Advanced to the rescue. The BRB does not tell me to go back and undo steps. It does not tell me to undo so I cannot. I resolve the mode conflict with the Basic Vs Advanced rule.

I see no specific permission in the Deep Strike rule that lets you overcome the FMC requirement to be swooping. Since you have to be swooping when you DS, you are in violation of the MF rule. You have no "specific" argument anywhere here other than a weak attempt to bypass the restriction of "no swooping" by using a USR to swoop rather than a change of flight mode.

The MF rule does not forbid DS. The MF rule exactly says only Glide which ONLY comes into conflict AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

The timing does not matter. You are forbidden to swoop.

I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
[
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

Strawman again.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

This you cannot do because of MF. Show specific permission in the Deepstrike or FMC rule to overcome the inability to Swoop because of MF.

DS requires the FMC to be swooping, a state you can not be in when you are a part of the formation.

Therefore FMC'as can not DS while a part of that formation.

col_impact, You have not shown any rules that over ride the restriction, your argument falls apart.

col_impact wrote:

I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.

Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.

To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?

This grants me Deep Strike.

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.

If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue about that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.

I Deep Strike.

After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
DS requires the FMC to be swooping, a state you can not be in when you are a part of the formation.

Therefore FMC'as can not DS while a part of that formation.

col_impact, You have not shown any rules that over ride the restriction, your argument falls apart.

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.

col_impact wrote:
This grants me Deep Strike.

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.

If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue on that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.

I Deep Strike.

After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.

The MF rule does not say "only use Glide". Using actual rules in your argument is polite.

Yes, the FMC has the Deep Strike rule. Using it, however, breaks the MF rule.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to break an Advanced rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.

Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.

Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.

To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?

After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?

col_impact wrote:
[
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?

You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?