12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland

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**Steve steveson**

The BBC seem to have a much better version of the video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30220700

It seems that the kid was walking up and down with the gun, the person who called it in said it was a "Guy" and says "It is probably a fake" but also says he is scared.

The kid goes for the gun almost as soon as the car stops. I can see why the cops thought he was going to shoot at them. They also thought he was about 20. I'm sure some people will claim that they are trying to cover themselves, but that seems unlikely in that situation, especially as the person who called it in seems to have thought it was an adult.

**the shrouded lord**

If the cop ends up in jail, I am going to fly to America and break him out.

**Iron_Captain**

I don't think the police guy should go to jail.
He should however lose his job. His actions may be understandable, he may have just followed standard procedures, but that is all no valid excuse for the fact he made an absolutely huge mistake. Police officers are not supposed to make mistakes, it should have consequences. Especially with a mistake as tragic as this one.

In my opinion, the cops were too hasty. They come driving in, burst out of the car and shoot the kid. There is only a few seconds between the cops getting out of the car and them shooting. They should have been more careful. Sure, they would have risked getting shot at, but that is a risk a policeman should be willing to take. It can mean the difference between life and death for innocent people, as you can see here.

**Steve steveson**

Did he make a mistake? If he did the right thing in the situation then there is no mistake. If he did make a mistake then, yes, he should lose his job, but at the moment I can't see any evidence of a mistake. If more evidence appears to show he did make a mistake and killed someone (kid or not) due to an error on his part then yes, but at the moment all the evidence seems to show that he was presented with a situation where he told someone who had been waving a gun around to put their hands up who instead started to draw the gun. I don't see the mistake in that at all.

**Compel**

I'll say fist off, I haven't had the opportunity to watch the video yet.

However, I think there might just be a fundamental difference of opinion of what people expect in different countries / areas from the police.

I'm not saying that UK police get it right but, forgive me if I'm badly wrong, but, an expectation of the police in the USA is "law enforcement" as in, the enforcing of law.

However, I remembered a phrase about British policing, "policing by consent." And a handy google led me to this.

[url]https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/policing-by-consent[url]

To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.

To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.

To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.

To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.

To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

So yeah, that's a pretty good summary / background about the source of my opinions on this.

**jhe90**

From page one, the gun looks very real, no obvious markings to show its a fake, no orange tip, no bright colours, separate magazine.

The police may have made wrong choice but they had seconds to decide and that looks much like a real firearm

**DanielBeaver**

Steve steveson wrote:
The BBC seem to have a much better version of the video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30220700

It seems that the kid was walking up and down with the gun, the person who called it in said it was a "Guy" and says "It is probably a fake" but also says he is scared.

The kid goes for the gun almost as soon as the car stops. I can see why the cops thought he was going to shoot at them. They also thought he was about 20. I'm sure some people will claim that they are trying to cover themselves, but that seems unlikely in that situation, especially as the person who called it in seems to have thought it was an adult.

This video is absolutely deceptive - it cuts off and makes it look like the cops waited and assessed the situation, instead of immediately shooting the kid (in the original video, the kid is shot within a couple seconds of the car pulling up).

**Steve steveson**

I think it makes it clear that the kid is shot almost immediately. The title of the page it "Tamir Rice shot 'within two seconds' of police arrival" It cut's off because the BBC are not going to show footage of someone being shot.

You can clearly see the car stopping and the kid pulling the gun out before the cars door is even opened fully. I don't think there is any implication that the cops waited any longer than what you can see either in the video or in the accompanying text. The film clearly freezes to keep the narrative and pacing going, to show that something happened, but without showing the shooting. Perhaps this is something we are used to in the UK, the freezing of videos and continuing a voice over to continue the story without showing the violence that does not translate well to people who are not used to it.

**whembly**

jhe90 wrote:
From page one, the gun looks very real, no obvious markings to show its a fake, no orange tip, no bright colours, separate magazine.

The police may have made wrong choice but they had seconds to decide and that looks much like a real firearm

Actually, the debate among here is that the police made the RIGHT choice and that the 12 yo made the WRONG choice.

In another words, the police made a tragic, right choice of action.

**easysauce**

whembly wrote:
jhe90 wrote:
From page one, the gun looks very real, no obvious markings to show its a fake, no orange tip, no bright colours, separate magazine.

The police may have made wrong choice but they had seconds to decide and that looks much like a real firearm

Actually, the debate among here is that the police made the RIGHT choice and that the 12 yo made the WRONG choice.

In another words, the police made a tragic, right choice of action.

yeah... its sad all around, but the video clearly shows him walking around, pointing the gun at people, and his first reaction to the cops is to go for the gun.

if anything is to be learnt, its to supervise your kids, prevents a huge amount of things from going wrong, not just this.

**whembly**

easysauce wrote:
whembly wrote:
jhe90 wrote:
From page one, the gun looks very real, no obvious markings to show its a fake, no orange tip, no bright colours, separate magazine.

The police may have made wrong choice but they had seconds to decide and that looks much like a real firearm

Actually, the debate among here is that the police made the RIGHT choice and that the 12 yo made the WRONG choice.

In another words, the police made a tragic, right choice of action.

yeah... its sad all around, but the video clearly shows him walking around, pointing the gun at people, and his first reaction to the cops is to go for the gun.

if anything is to be learnt, its to supervise your kids, prevents a huge amount of things from going wrong, not just this.

The lesson here is to teach your kids. You can't supervise a 12 yo all the time (and this is coming from an old man that has an 11 yo).

**Formosa**

So clarify this for a brit will you guys.

Kid has what is thought to be a gun, kid has clearly taken the little orange bit of it for a reason, god knows what that is.

cops get call out because kid is waving gun around (?)

They turn up and kid has said "gun"

Cops I assume asked him to drop it, he either did or didn't.

cops shoot kid dead.

so what im missing is this, why did they shoot the kid, did he go to pull it out or something? or was the copper just taking no risks (understandable).

To me this seems like another reason the yanks need to disarm, too many guns, too high a risk, how many kids need to be shot before you people decide to stop this stuff being allowed.

as I said, inform a brit that just doesn't understand?

**Ouze**

After seeing the video I agree with Insaniak.

**Alfndrate**

Links to the videos have been posted plenty of times in this thread.

When the cop car pulls up, Tamir reaches for something under his sweatshirt in his waistband. At that point the cops had to make a decision, shoot the kid or wait to see what it was (could have meant a dead cop)

Ouze wrote:
After seeing the video I agree with Insaniak.

I missed it in the circular who said or didn't say what part of his posts can I get the cliffnotes version?

**Ashiraya**

Ouze wrote:
After seeing the video I agree with Insaniak.

Same.

**Ouze**

Alfndrate wrote:
Links to the videos have been posted plenty of times in this thread.

When the cop car pulls up, Tamir reaches for something under his sweatshirt in his waistband. At that point the cops had to make a decision, shoot the kid or wait to see what it was (could have meant a dead cop)

Ouze wrote:
After seeing the video I agree with Insaniak.

I missed it in the circular who said or didn't say what part of his posts can I get the cliffnotes version?

Just his last post was probably a good summary.

insaniak wrote:
(snip) approaching the situation from the assumption that the gun was real was insane.

Around the country on any given day, I can guarantee that there would be vastly more 12 year olds playing with toy guns than there are 12 year olds going on shooting rampages. In this case, no shots had been fired. No threats had been issued. There was no logical reason for police to assume that it was anything other than a kid playing around.

They certainly should have been prepared for the possibility that it might turn out to be something more, because that's what police do. But charging in on the assumption that this kid had a real weapon and was about to shoot someone, with no evidence that this was actually the case, was the wrong approach.

If they were going to take that approach, they should have been prepared for the fact that a 12 year old confronted by police officers in that fashion was possibly not going to react in a logical fashion.

Instead, they treated a kid playing around like a criminal about to go on a rampage, and the end result is a dead kid.

I understand that going in guns blazing was the safest thing for the police officer, but I think if your safety is the most important thing in the world, so much so that you have to shoot a child virtually the instant you get out of a car because he's holding what may or may not be a real gun, you should pick a less dangerous line of work. The police that work in our cities should not have more relaxed rules of engagement and poorer trigger discipline than the soldiers we send to foreign battlefields.

**Steve steveson**

Formosa wrote:
Kid has what is thought to be a gun, kid has clearly taken the little orange bit of it for a reason, god knows what that is.

To be clear, the orange bits, at least on UK airsoft guns, are not easy to remove. They are not a matter of taking it off, but a case of dissembling the gun or taking a hacksaw to it.

Formosa wrote:

To me this seems like another reason the yanks need to disarm, too many guns, too high a risk, how many kids need to be shot before you people decide to stop this stuff being allowed.

as I said, inform a brit that just doesn't understand?

There is a good chance the same thing would happen in the UK, at least in an inner city area. In a rural area the police are more likely to think it is a toy first. After all, this was a BB gun, which are just as restricted, if nor more so, in many parts of the US compared to the UK.

**Alfndrate**

Thanks Ouze

**Formosa**

Steve steveson wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Kid has what is thought to be a gun, kid has clearly taken the little orange bit of it for a reason, god knows what that is.

To be clear, the orange bits, at least on UK airsoft guns, are not easy to remove. They are not a matter of taking it off, but a case of dissembling the gun or taking a hacksaw to it.

Formosa wrote:

To me this seems like another reason the yanks need to disarm, too many guns, too high a risk, how many kids need to be shot before you people decide to stop this stuff being allowed.

as I said, inform a brit that just doesn't understand?

There is a good chance the same thing would happen in the UK, at least in an inner city area. In a rural area the police are more likely to think it is a toy first. After all, this was a BB gun, which are just as restricted, if nor more so, in many parts of the US compared to the UK.

of course it could happen here, it did several times, people being shot by the police as they ran away or other such things.

but it doesn't happen with the alarming regularity that the americans seem to have, as guns are a lot harder to get a hold of, nevermind the legality of it

**jhe90**

Sorry if a derailed abit then but I've seen some threads n comments on other places that made out it was more like a nerf gun or obvious toy, not a almost replica live firearm.

Kind of a inportant distinction to make.

Yes the shooting was tragic but the officer had very little choice, it was a nightmare scenario but he only had seconds to make a desicion to fire or not. Not a long time at all when the consciences of that action are so serious.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Having watched the video, I can only conclude that the officers in questions should be sacked ASAP for sheer incompetence. The lack of professionalism is absolutely shocking.

They went in all guns blazing, and the end result is a dead kid.

You can hear it clearly over the dispatch that one officer thinks they shot a 20 year old!

If that's professional law enforcement, I'd hate to see the amateur equivalent.

**loki old fart**

Steve steveson wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Kid has what is thought to be a gun, kid has clearly taken the little orange bit of it for a reason, god knows what that is.

To be clear, the orange bits, at least on UK airsoft guns, are not easy to remove. They are not a matter of taking it off, but a case of dissembling the gun or taking a hacksaw to it.

Rubbish the things fall apart first time they're chucked in the toy box, I know I bought some for my grandsons.
Thank god we live in England.

**Relapse**

Funny that a white 20 year old gets shot and killed under practically the same circumstance by a black officer and no one at the liberal news services thinks twice about it.
In both instances, though, it seems the officer was justified. The difference is there wasn't the big debate, marches, etc. in the Salt Lake case.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/uh-oh-black-police-officer-shoots-unarmed-white-man-wheres-riot/

**d-usa**

So in the thread about the 12 year old you post another article making the same argument that you made in the Ferguson thread and which was already debunked in the Ferguson thread?

**Relapse**

d-usa wrote:
So in the thread about the 12 year old you post another article making the same argument that you made in the Ferguson thread and which was already debunked in the Ferguson thread?

What was debunked?

**d-usa**

Relapse wrote:
d-usa wrote:
So in the thread about the 12 year old you post another article making the same argument that you made in the Ferguson thread and which was already debunked in the Ferguson thread?

What was debunked?

Nobody other than local news covered the shooting of Michael Brown, and nobody was able to find a single national news story about the shooting. None, nada, zilch.

The national news covered the protests by the second day, but white cop shooting black guy was just as non-newsworthy as black cop shooting white guy.

**Relapse**

d-usa wrote:
Relapse wrote:
d-usa wrote:
So in the thread about the 12 year old you post another article making the same argument that you made in the Ferguson thread and which was already debunked in the Ferguson thread?

What was debunked?

Nobody other than local news covered the shooting of Michael Brown, and nobody was able to find a single national news story about the shooting. None, nada, zilch.

The national news covered the protests by the second day, but white cop shooting black guy was just as non-newsworthy as black cop shooting white guy.

Wrong. I said no one at the liberal news services thought twice about it. Outside of a couple of blurbs from them, there was no further mention of the incident. Definitly not on the scale afforded either Brown, a proven thief and bully who attacked a cop, or the kid who pulled a toy gun on the cops.

**Jihadin**

I see Risk Assessment coming into play

Risk is to high then the mission is a no go. Automated calls to all land lines and cells in the area warning of a possible hazard to property and life. Stay indoors for your safety till "Index" is given

**hotsauceman1**

https://www.facebook.com/topic/Cleveland/106209216076957?source=whfrt&position=3&trqid=6086618960179691503
I think it was avoidable by telling your kid not to point guns at people.

**Hordini**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Having watched the video, I can only conclude that the officers in questions should be sacked ASAP for sheer incompetence. The lack of professionalism is absolutely shocking.

They went in all guns blazing, and the end result is a dead kid.

You can hear it clearly over the dispatch that one officer thinks they shot a 20 year old!

If that's professional law enforcement, I'd hate to see the amateur equivalent.

Between the time they arrived and the time that the boy was shot, they told him to put his hands up three times and he reached for the gun.