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Hi guys,

I don't want to recreate the age old "40k is imbalanced in tournaments" discussion. So please help me the other way round: we'll introduce two new players to our gaming group who are interested in 40k and fairly experienced in other strategy games. So to provide the best possible games for the first time we will let them play with some of our armies (most of us own more than one) and give them lists.

Here's the challenge now: from the following list of armies, assuming that you got all usual usable units, create two lists at a point value of (1250, 1500 or 1850) that are as balanced as possible (read: that will provide a game that is a fair as humanly possible).

Available armies are: CSM + Daemons, Necron, Eldar, Grey Knights, Tyranids, AM and also enough Assassins to use the Dataslate in any list where it is allowed.

Enjoy

That could be problematic. GK don't work without ally and AM gets hard contered by av walls and eldar. CSM are much weaker then other armies. Demons could be an option, but it is a list that wins or dies on a few summoning rolls.

So probably some sort of eldar build. 1-2 seers, 3-4 serpents, 2WK , with jetbike and DA supported by a unit or two of warp spiders.

And the classic necron AV wall 2 barge lords , 2 scyths with immortals , 3ABs , 1 unit of wraiths and 2 of those long ships that boost regeneration.

nids could be make a good list too, but they are hard to play.
But I guess 3 tyrants 3 of those other flyer nids, a venomthrope for first turn cover +2 , 2swarm as troops and Barge lord with scyth and wraiths as ally , could work well too.

I would suggest for as a guide (that I would use when I get in front of my Armybuilder program):

1/2 the points on "Troops" (even split of foot slog and mechanized).
Some fast attack "cavalry".
One aircraft (<edit> or 2 winged Monstrous creatures) .
Some heavy choices being an even mix of artillery and armor.
HQ a selection of support (thinking of AM), try to get some interesting unique abilities on HQ to support the troops.
Elites I would save till last and pick the "iconic" unit(s) for that army.
Look at some infiltration and deep-strike units where it makes sense.
Maybe 1 to 2 units with psych abilities?

Basically the things we complain about to be avoided: Spamming units.

I am looking for a variety abilities to learn for each army and a good introduction to all it's capabilities.
The half points for troops is to reflect what wargaming is all about: the grunts getting the job done.
You can always carefully introduce a LoW and fortifications two or three games in.

I "think" if you keep a good classic mixed warfare approach it should balance out OK and keep it fun.
Will see if I have time later at home to make up a few things, Necrons and Tyranids I would have the least knowledge of what to select.

While 40k is easy to break in a competitive sense, it’s fine if you take two TAC fun armies and slap them down on the table

Just take a diverse selection from both sides, and make sure you have all your bases covered. (AV, AA, etc.)

I notice you didn’t list codex marines in your list of armies, so I can’t really help out on specifics.

Ask themm which army they find the most appealing. Thenn pit those against each other with average Tac lists.

Avoid spam and add a bit of everything so you don't end up with one side dominating everything.

Makumba wrote:
GK don't work without ally

Ha ha ha so you don't play GK at all then right?

I've been using 30 terminators, 1 libby and 2 dreadnights with an aegis line and comms relay. Does really well. Allies only slow you down.

Are these players likely to enjoy playing competitive lists?

You can certainly get a feel for tournament level without going full-on broken.

If anything, taking multiples of the good units is less complex for them to approach.

I'm simply not sure if it is a good idea to introduce them into competitive lists and then when they start their own army they lose motivation and fun (due to things like "no, you can't have a fun to paint army, just buy 30 of the most efficient models").

I second the opinion that two TAC provide fun games for both sides and would really like to see what you guys consider two evenly matched TAC lists.

Do *not* start them with Serpents. It will not be fun.

Imperium holding on is probably the best narrative.

Nids are a bit specialized, and you don't have Orks.

I'd suggest one of them does AM with lots of infantry against an experienced player with a ground swarm of Nids. Keep both sets small (500pts?) and simple (probably no Mawloc).

The other does CSM. Preferably at least one Tac squad. Preferably against foot Necrons.

After those two training games (try not to stomp them), throw them at eachother. After their first matchup, someone bail out the loser with Demons/GK, while the other reinforces the winner.

I'd keep Eldar and Assassins away until they master the basics.

 juraigamer wrote:

Makumba wrote:
GK don't work without ally

Ha ha ha so you don't play GK at all then right?

I've been using 30 terminators, 1 libby and 2 dreadnights with an aegis line and comms relay. Does really well. Allies only slow you down.

No but I play against them a lot and I know that the same list with 1 libby no line 15 teriminaots 2 knights and some centurions work better.

I don't think hiding good lists or starting people with weak lists is a good idea. It may give an illusion how the looks like. And it is way better to show them how eldar, necron or nid list, before they start buying their own models , then wait till they buy 1500+pts and then show them how the game is.

That depends on the meta. That may be 'how the game is' where you play, but there is a great deal of variety of metas. Some people enjoy the game more when the cheesiest stuff isn't played so frequently.

So, do you want to introduce them to tournyhammer or to beer-n-pretzels hammer?

If i understand it he's looking for lists where one wont automatically roflstomp the other. Having tried to do that last year with just two lists (ba & chaos), i can tell you its a lot harder than putting together a waac list.

edit: to try and be more helpful, i'd limit or not take anything with av 11 or higher as it's a hard counter to certain things, likewise ap3 does the same against meq. Basically you want grunts with no equipment, as necrons will hard counter vehicles while heavy weapons will hard counter infantry. Anything that looks cool or flavourful, don't take it, it's probably a hard counter. Making 'friendly' lists for that many armies is a bit of a nightmare. I wish i was joking.

Small point value mirror-matches are the best options, really. If balance is the main goal.

It's actually not difficult. Take two units each of anti-infantry and anti-tank, assault based unit, a deep strike unit and a flyer. That limits the beatstick lists. Keeps things very balanced, forces less than ideal units and prevents spamming.

Thanks for the further input, I think taking a unit type and then put one of each in both armies is a good approach. The points difference can then be used for buying a few unit upgrades.

I noticed though that 2nd edition equipment cards were really nice for new players. Having them look up everything in a Codex feels a bit like bookkeeping in comparison.

No Spam. No TranCtans. Done.

One problem you might have is that none of your factions are great for mirror matches.

For instance, Guardsmen IIRC are better per man than Cultists, and for PA bodies, GK tends to be better than CSMs.

Perhaps start with fairly basic troops, giving the CSM player a decent-sized unit of Cultists (10-20), and a 5-10man CSM squads w/ melee kitted champions. Then mach with equal points of basic Guardsmen units with a heavy weapon or two (Autocannon maybe?)

Then add leaders. CSM Lord w/ only a Power weapon, and a non-Orders IG HQ W/ a power sword. Good enough to scare CSM Marines, but lose to the Lord.

Then fill to fluff. Probably a Raptor squad for CSMs, and more Guardsmen and/or Autocannons/Stubbers/Heavy Bolters for IG.

Should show them how Warhammer 40k works without bogging them down right away. And profiles become obvious quickly. Human = 3. Supersoldier = 4.

It'd make it easier to keep multi-wound non-hqs, varying trooper stats, t5+, psykers, and vehicles out of their first try, IMO.

Once the lists are known, a quick ref sheet could be written up.

Looking at where everyone is going:

I would modify my original "guide" to start a small point value game with troops and hq.
Maybe no vehicles at this stage?

Then slowly introduce a squad/squadron of each choice to learn as they go.
Get some troops in some transports at this point and maybe artillery?

At the third stage introduce deep-strike and infiltration?
That in-itself would be tactically strange enough.

Fourth stage skimmers / aircraft / flying monstrous creatures.

Fifth stage: elite / heavy vehicles / Tyranid monstrous gun bugs.

6th, unleash the psychers!

I guess that is how I would like to start if I was new trying to learn.