Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is the HE +1 High Magic per mage cumulative? Because that could be oh so wrong...

Vetril wrote:

bzdanny wrote:

If one of the players wants to use the new rules ... (Which is kinda interesting as it leads to ... P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules" P2 " I want to" P1 " Well I guess i have to ...")

Do you have to satisfy all the conditions, or at least one?

To be honest I like these new rules, it makes mages flexible within their role, but also a gamble.

See that seems like miswording, you can't enforce that. The rules are contingent upon 2 players agreeing. The new magic rules seem a bit broken to me but I haven't played them. Maybe they'll be fun, maybe we'll house rule it so you can dispell them. I just hate the idea of undispellable spells. Especially Deadlock. An Elf player can essentially deny you a magic phase by casting that and there is zero counter play. You can't dispell you can't scroll. Just "Welp I rolled a 15 because Im casting at +5 so your lvl 4 is now useless. Oh and by the way he can't dispell any of my spells the rest of this turn either so get double fethed."

I understand the counter is bring more wizards but some armies rely on magic (Undead come to mind) and this spell can completely destroy them. The only counter play being kill the mage, which probably won't happen until turn 3 (2 if you're good / luck) and isn't easy as Elves have good defensive options.

Also that conversation might go more like:

P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules"
P2 "I want to"
P1 " Well I guess we have to find new opponents"

Well at least post the new casting limits. You can use 1D6 worth of casting dice per spell. You roll before each casting.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
See that seems like miswording, you can't enforce that. The rules are contingent upon 2 players agreeing. The new magic rules seem a bit broken to me but I haven't played them. Maybe they'll be fun, maybe we'll house rule it so you can dispell them. I just hate the idea of undispellable spells. Especially Deadlock. An Elf player can essentially deny you a magic phase by casting that and there is zero counter play. You can't dispell you can't scroll. Just "Welp I rolled a 15 because Im casting at +5 so your lvl 4 is now useless. Oh and by the way he can't dispell any of my spells the rest of this turn either so get double fethed."

I understand the counter is bring more wizards but some armies rely on magic (Undead come to mind) and this spell can completely destroy them. The only counter play being kill the mage, which probably won't happen until turn 3 (2 if you're good / luck) and isn't easy as Elves have good defensive options.

Also that conversation might go more like:

P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules"
P2 "I want to"
P1 " Well I guess we have to find new opponents"

No, I was merely wondering if by virtue of fielding one of the new elven lists, you'd get to automatically use the new magic rules.
For me, it's more of a matter of being able to play mages who are more than a one trick pony. With random generation, if you bring a level 1 mage, he's going to do the same thing for 6 turns: cast fireball, done; next turn, cast fireball again, done.
Level 4s are used because they have an advantage at casting and so make dispelling harder, yes, but also because they have more tools at their disposal. The fact that the new rules open up the whole spell lore to all mages, automatically makes the lower level mages more desirable - it's better to have two or three lower level mages from different lores, as you get more chances to roll for a high cap on one of the spells you might need. If you bring one level 4 from death, and you roll a 2 on the casting dice when you want to cast purple sun, you are done. If you bring 2 level 1s, one from death and one from shadow, then if you roll low with death, you can hope for a higher cap for the pit spell.
Maybe in 9th edition some higher level mages will know more than one spell lore, either automatically, or through a character upgrade, to give them an edge in flexibility.

As for balance, with 4d6 you have a very good chance of ending up with something between 11 and 17 d6. With some level 4 wizards, you can cast 2, maybe 3 spells with a high casting value. You still have a good chance of failing to cast at least one. Either way, you'll need to bring different lores with high level mages if you want to spam those spells; the points needed to do it will raise quickly.
I think having these new spells will mean that people will be able to cast 1 big spell (with the last dice if your opponent doesn't dispel the previous spells), or 2 lesser spells (if your opponent doesn't save any dice) relatively undisturbed. However, there is a very real chance that a player won't be able to cast the exact combination of spells they want, simply because some spells will roll a casting dice cap that is too low. This is why I am saying that mages are also a gamble with these rules... With the current magic rules, one can take a level 4 mage and be reasonably sure to have the big guns, and he can be reasonably sure that he gets to use 6 dice to cast the spell he wants. The option is very reliable (the results aren't, but that's another topic). With the EoT rules, you can't plan to six-dice your way to victory.

Any mention of bound spells in the new rules?
I'm curious if I can keep casting Beam of Chotec from my solar engine(s).
Or repeated lights of undeath from the casket of souls.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well at least post the new casting limits. You can use 1D6 worth of casting dice per spell. You roll before each casting.

I did: Other interesting notes you roll 4d6, 12 dice limit is removed (for both), you get the 2 highest dispel dice, you can keep casting a spell as many times as you like as long as you don't fail (in any ways), even if you do fail to cast a spell you can keep going but just can't cast that spell now, you can only cast "End times spells or spells with casting values of 15+ once (including boosting), and finally each time you cast a spell you roll a D6 to see how many dice you can use (minimum 1) and same for dispell.

I didn't go into the full rules as I was trying to paraphrase and not just copy and paste them so I might of missed a few things ...

For the Magic rules it states that you must use the new rules if you meet any 1 of the 4 conditions ... however I did mention in my paragraphs of doom that the players could decided not use them but per the rules you should.

Also I think people are mis-interprupting the "no dispell" part of the end times spells ... if you read how to cast a spell you are required to get a chance to dispell and the new rules don't say you skip that part of casting a spell phase. Just that it can't be dispelled which if you look at all the spells they are Remain-In-Play spells. So you just can't dispell once the spell is in play but during the cast you can still try to like normal at least that is how we have been playing that rule though only 1 spell has been cast so far of the dreaded "END TIMES?!?!" spells.

There was nothing about casting bound spells so normal rules apply but going out on a limp and saying you need to roll a D6 to see how many dice you can put into the spell?

@vetril

I understand the points youve made. Thats not my concern, you actually ignored my main point. My concern is the end times undispellable super spells. This unit has a 2+ ward and theres nothing you can do about it. Your wizard cannot dispell the rest of the turn or cast in the next and theres nothing you can do about it. Im going to bring back 2d6 wounds of demigryphs, and theres nothing you can do about it.

My issue is them being undispellable. At least with IF there is a penalty in miscasting.

Vetril wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
See that seems like miswording, you can't enforce that. The rules are contingent upon 2 players agreeing....
P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules"
P2 "I want to"
P1 " Well I guess we have to find new opponents"

No, I was merely wondering if by virtue of fielding one of the new elven lists, you'd get to automatically use the new magic rules.

I bet that fething guy will have a field day with the way that's wording. My group is already clamoring about whether or not to use the new rules. I'm too scared and ill-informed to vote at this point.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I'm too scared and ill-informed to vote at this point.

So don't vote. The best vote at this point is to TRY them. Test them out in a few games & see how they work. Then make an informed decision. Everything currently is theory hammer, snap judgements based without evidence, people raging one way or the other are just being howler monkeys.

Your parents ever make you try new food? Some you did hate but some you loved. I have my reservations but I'm going to actually try them. If they are broken as feth then at least I know and worst case I maybe didn't enjoy some games as much as I would have. no big loss to me.

I have my reservation about undispellable but I will at least TRY it out.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
@vetril

I understand the points youve made. Thats not my concern, you actually ignored my main point. My concern is the end times undispellable super spells. This unit has a 2+ ward and theres nothing you can do about it. Your wizard cannot dispell the rest of the turn or cast in the next and theres nothing you can do about it. Im going to bring back 2d6 wounds of demigryphs, and theres nothing you can do about it.

My issue is them being undispellable. At least with IF there is a penalty in miscasting.

Yes, that is true. However, elves gnerally have access to better arcane items to equip their mages, and to additional magic lores. They fan sue the undispellable spells too, with arguably greater effect.

I'm not sure if you're getting my point. Elves or not I think the new spells are a bit broken, granted this also comes with no experience playing them. I think having spells that powerful being just blanket no chance to dispel is a bad change.

it's not just the elves who have access to them it's everybody the fact that elves already have such powerful magic doesn't alleviate any concern.

After some review of the material and a couple test games under my belt, I've come to two conclusions.

The Loremaster of Hoeth and a Slann Mage-Priest with Wandering Deliberations are the two most powerful points-per-effectiveness models in the game.

The End Times spells for Lore of Metal and Shadow provide the best effectiveness-to-odds-of-success.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I'm not sure if you're getting my point. Elves or not I think the new spells are a bit broken, granted this also comes with no experience playing them. I think having spells that powerful being just blanket no chance to dispel is a bad change.

it's not just the elves who have access to them it's everybody the fact that elves already have such powerful magic doesn't alleviate any concern.

I got your point. My consideration is that everyone has them: I don't see how it can be so terribly unbalanced if 80% or more of what you can do to your opponent using magic can be done to you in return.

Sure - if it's sticks, it's going to change the meta and the army lists.

Because those spells aren't all balanced. The HM one is particularly devastating. Your opponent may well LOSE their magic phase in addition to not being able to dispel in yours.

As an elf or lizardmen player is I go first I just cast that every turn & I now own both magic phases.

Additionally just because something is balanced doesn't mean it's good. You know how everyone cries about banner of the world dragon? Now imagine not only can an elf army have BotWD on one unit but a blanket 2+ ward on another.

Or hell 2 combat units hit each other & you trade off casting 2++ wards on your units. That combat sucks now, your deathstar with a 2+ vs my deathstar with a 2++ we sit & do nothing for 4 turns.

just because something is balanced doesn't mean it's good for the game.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Because those spells aren't all balanced. The HM one is particularly devastating. Your opponent may well LOSE their magic phase in addition to not being able to dispel in yours.

I'm FAR more concerned about that slaanesh one. Oh look. I now control your Nagash/KFA/Eternity King/ Tyrion/Teclis/Morathi. Aaaand I win this game.

Exactly, and there is NOTHING your opponent can do to stop it. No scroll, no dispel. Your only option is (hopefully) kill the wizard before they cast it.

Or that they roll a 1 for the number of dice they can spend to cast the spell, which, being that they all have a casting value over 16, breaks the concentration...

 japehlio wrote:
Or that they roll a 1 for the number of dice they can spend to cast the spell, which, being that they all have a casting value over 16, breaks the concentration...

Not all. Metal and Shadow, off the top of my head, at 15.

That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

Worth noting, it does require a six dice toss to average 20. So you're probably looking at rolling up five dice to cast a 20 spell (accounting for wizard level), and a six dice toss at a 25. Even then it's a gamble. That said, the payoff is enormous.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

This is true. If you lose Nagash, that's likely your only Mage. So you have D6 dice to hope to roll a 20 or that Nagash passes the Ld8.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

And if an opponent rolls 6 dices and gets a pair of 6's, you're in the same boat with the current rules.
If an opponent fires a cannon at me, I don't get a chance to dispel it.
It's a lot harder to get big spells off in the new rules. Most of the end times spells aren't that crazy, considering ~half of them are going to fail outright due to only being able to roll 1 to 3 power dice.
For armies with very limited lore selections (ogres, orcs and goblins, skaven, tomb kings), the wizard hat becomes a very solid choice.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about warlocks getting all of shadow and death.
I'll have to look at daemons and see all of tzeench is useful enough to make me want to take horrors.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

And if an opponent rolls 6 dices and gets a pair of 6's, you're in the same boat with the current rules.
If an opponent fires a cannon at me, I don't get a chance to dispel it.
It's a lot harder to get big spells off in the new rules. Most of the end times spells aren't that crazy, considering ~half of them are going to fail outright due to only being able to roll 1 to 3 power dice.
For armies with very limited lore selections (ogres, orcs and goblins, skaven, tomb kings), the wizard hat becomes a very solid choice.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about warlocks getting all of shadow and death.
I'll have to look at daemons and see all of tzeench is useful enough to make me want to take horrors.

So you're more worried about warlocks getting dark magic and death than losing control of a unit or having a Mage locked out of magic. No dispelling, casting or channelling. Yeah. That's a valid concern. Plus a level 4 metal gives you a 2+ ward against everything.

The new Magic is far more bent than you're letting on. It's random, which is self mitigating in a way, but undispellable spells? That's too much. If I 4 dice the end times slaanesh spell and take control of Nagash, my opponent cannot stop it. At all. Unless he rolls d6 dice and on those dice he rolls a 20. Or Nagash passes the ld check. But you losenagash for a turn, at which point, he's purple sun-d off your army. And raised a million models under your control.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

And if an opponent rolls 6 dices and gets a pair of 6's, you're in the same boat with the current rules.
If an opponent fires a cannon at me, I don't get a chance to dispel it.
It's a lot harder to get big spells off in the new rules. Most of the end times spells aren't that crazy, considering ~half of them are going to fail outright due to only being able to roll 1 to 3 power dice.
For armies with very limited lore selections (ogres, orcs and goblins, skaven, tomb kings), the wizard hat becomes a very solid choice.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about warlocks getting all of shadow and death.
I'll have to look at daemons and see all of tzeench is useful enough to make me want to take horrors.

Except with IF there is the penalty of a miscast. There is a risk-reward. true I cannot dispel it but your mage is now done casting & may just go bye-bye.

Cannons don't:
Give 2+ ward saves
Block all of a wizards magic
Restore 2d6 wounds
Teleport units behind me
Halve the strength of all units with 24"
Invoke test or die on a large pie plate
Affect ALL enemy units on the battlefield simultaneously

Cannons and end times magic aint in the same ballpark, it aint even the same game.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
That is still nothing I can do. if you're best defense is "hope they roll a one" that's not a defense at all.

And if an opponent rolls 6 dices and gets a pair of 6's, you're in the same boat with the current rules.
If an opponent fires a cannon at me, I don't get a chance to dispel it.
It's a lot harder to get big spells off in the new rules. Most of the end times spells aren't that crazy, considering ~half of them are going to fail outright due to only being able to roll 1 to 3 power dice.
For armies with very limited lore selections (ogres, orcs and goblins, skaven, tomb kings), the wizard hat becomes a very solid choice.

Anyhow, I'm more concerned about warlocks getting all of shadow and death.
I'll have to look at daemons and see all of tzeench is useful enough to make me want to take horrors.

Except with IF there is the penalty of a miscast. There is a risk-reward. true I cannot dispel it but your mage is now done casting & may just go bye-bye.

Cannons don't:
Give 2+ ward saves
Block all of a wizards magic
Restore 2d6 wounds
Teleport units behind me
Halve the strength of all units with 24"
Invoke test or die on a large pie plate
Affect ALL enemy units on the battlefield simultaneously

Cannons and end times magic aint in the same ballpark, it aint even the same game.

You're right, Cannons are a lot better.

I've played 3 games now with the new magic system. I've seen 2 end time spell go off, out of about a dozen attempts. 20+ to cast is hard to do, on 4 dice or less. 25+ cast is pretty much out. Oddly enough, the odds of rolling the 6 you need, is the same odds as you rolling a 1 on your look out check.
What has been very effective is taking ~3 wizards with 3 different lores, and powering through spells that cast at a 10 or less. About 7 of the 10 failed end times attempts ended with the wizard rolling a single die when he discovered his power die cap was far too low to realistically meet the casting requirement. ~3 times the opponent attempted to get lucky and came up short on the dice.
From game experience, most end time spells are a suckers bet. You're more likely to be throwing away your dice advantage than actually doing anything useful.
Even with my maxed out Undead casting (level 4 with +1 to cast/dispel item, mortis engine and hierotitan), casting at +8 to +10, the big spells aren't that easy to get off.
You should be crying about me casting multiple curses of years. Or multiple hands of Glory on the unit of 6 razordons. Seriously, had a round where I fired at BS8; 34 shots. Then 42 more on the stand and fire.

I'm not saying I'm against them existing. I have yet to use them so I can't speak to that.

I'm saying them being undispelable rubs me the wrong way. If they were dispellable I would be much more OK with it.

I took control of Karl Franz ascendant and tabled an empire army.

That being said, I was going to take the rest of the army off anyway. The fact that I got KFA and combo charged my slaanesh prince and KFA into the knight bus is a bonus.

If I read it right, I can spam Fireball from the *same mage* as long as I have dice and havent failed, but the High sig is boostable, and therefore can only be cast once even if I have 6 mages that know it?

Bharring wrote:
If I read it right, I can spam Fireball from the *same mage* as long as I have dice and havent failed, but the High sig is boostable, and therefore can only be cast once even if I have 6 mages that know it?

How we're playing it:
You can spam any spell of casting value 14 or less. If any wizard fails to cast the spell (because the casting value isn't met, or because the spell is dispelled), then it cannot be cast again that phase, by any wizards.
You may boost and spam a spell, as long as the boosted value is 14 or less.
To track all this, we simply use the magic card deck. When a spell fails or is dispelled, you flip the spell card face down.
If a miscast or other effect gets rid of a spell, it is lost to all wizards who know it, you discard it from the spell deck.

The last bit is totally made up rules, but makes tracking who has what a lot easier, and gives miscasting some teeth. It's a little rough on my undead, but as soon as I picked up a liche priest I've got a fistfulll of spells which can heal (invocation, breathe of darkness, and the whole lore of nehekhara).
Instead of spamming 5 casters (4 vampire, 1 light), I'm running Vampire, Nehekhara, Undeath and Light, dropping the 5th wizard entirely.

What I'll be trying out in my next game is Lizardmen and the Engine of the Gods.
In true End Times feel, my Slann will be raining down Comets on a 14+ (thanks to the Engine of the Gods), making it spammable.

-Matt

kooshlord wrote:
I cannot NOPE strongly enough.

Having now read the rules instead of blindly panicking, I am tentatively enthusiastic about the new magic rules. Seems like the random casting dice will discourage listbuilding around spamming megaspells, and encourage listbuilding around spamming lower level spells. I do think the random casting/dispel dice is gonna slow down the game, and I'm worried about light councils.