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 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

I'm pretty sure magic spooge is an equally valid interpretation. It never says *why* he can do it. it certainly never says why no other Imperials can. Maybe the Void Dragon has blessed him.

Who cares, rules are clear. An imperial gattling is superior to tau...literally anything you can put on a tank chassis.

... apparently, only when Pask can rub his magic spooge all over it. A regular gattling sucks balls. It's only Pask's magic spooge that can make it better.

Though, I think the idea that he's blessed by the Void Dragon has merit.

You're making stuff up. Not a word of magic sponge in rules. Pask fires a regular gattling.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, actually. What I want is for you to give us as harsh and uncompromising a list of Tau negative qualities as you can find. Every little thing the Tau do that isn't completely, unarguably Good, I want you to list them and tell us every single way in which the Tau are evil.

Their society isn't evil. It's naive and uncompromising and undemocratic, but it isn't evil.

Hell- when was the last time in 40k that you heard of an army allowing a defeated enemy to flee a battlefield unmolested?

The Tau did that at the end of the Damocles Crusade.

Anrakyr and other Necron Overlords offer this as it's part of their honour system (though not all of them seem the lesser races as honourable, but Anrakyr certainly does). Before the battle begins he gives his foes the opportunity to flee without conflict and after their defeated he does the same thing.

So no, your precious Tau aren't the only ones who do that.

Ghazzy let Yarrick go cauze he's so much fun to fight against. If we're talking about the least evil race of 40k - that'd be orks or tyranids. They literally have no idea of what 'evil' in our understanding means.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:




Once again- why do all the numbers you have rely on having an expert tank commander instead of a standard Imperial crew? They fall to crap when you get rid of that. A million Punishers couldn't kill a single Land Raider, no matter how much they fire at it. You're trying to compare standard Tau gear to magic Pask-spooge-bullets, and saying its Imperial technology. Until Pask's magic spooge can be bottled and issued to other troops, I'm not sure it counts as technology.

... and what comes before everything else is some sense of physics. Yes, it's a sci-fi game, and yes, things don't always work the way they do on Earth... but why would Pask's bullets somehow be able to punch through armor regular bullets can't? Longstrike is just really good- and his rules reflect that. Tank hunter means he's good at targeting vehicles, his overwatch means he's really good at firing at oncoming enemies... but why would Pask's bullets somehow magically be better at punching through armor. Does anyone has an explanation more reasonable than prayer-spooge?

Pask is really at shootign stuff too, so he gets rending on his bullets and tank hunter.

Are you seriously complaining that an extremely competant human tank operator gets nice things, but when an extremely competant tau tank operator gets nice things, its fine? Nice hypocrisy.

Rending isn't a matter of accuracy.

Let me put it this way- it doesn't matter, ever, how many small-caliber bullets you fire at a tank. The tank isn't going to die from small-arms fire. Ever.

If you want to say Pask should have tank-hunter, great... but why can Pask pick up that assault rifle and blow up a tank? That's what rending lets you do.

Scions get rending with hellguns when they're told to aim well
When they're told to aim real well, they wound anything on a 4+ both instances of this is supported by fluff bits where they were given orders to ''shoot there for max damage''

What's funny is that Rending was invented as a rule to represent the insane rate of fire from Assault Cannons being able to cut terminators in half... and then they didn't give it to any other chainguns, but they did give it to a fethload of things (sniper rifles, Retributor squads, I'm sure there are others) to represent improbable aiming skills.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to resolve any arguments like this via hearsay and game mechanics. In terms of actually figuring out what Pask can do in universe, you'd actually like, you know, want to do research about tank armor and penetration of like as well as find some useful descriptions of what an autocannon is (given that if you go far back enough, autocannon actually were basically tank cannon. And even in 'modern' 40K, autocannon tend to be ludicrously huge.

Codex Space Wolves 5th wrote:Predator Destructors, on the other hand, fire explosive ammunition from autocannons of such high calibre that their barrels could swallow a Space Marine's fist. Destructor-pattern Predators are versatile and deadly, as capable of hunting and destroying whole squadrons of light vehicles as they are chewing through the elite infantry of the Space Wolves' enemies.

Clearly not a gatling weapon, but also clearly not a 'small calibre' weapon either. This hilariously might actually validate the ludicrous barrel muzzles of the models/artwork that suggest Russes throw out battleship-sized shells (and your average gun loader is an f'cking genetically-engineered superman.) Same with the artilley really.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
We can dismiss parts of the fluff, the stupid ones.

Scions and SM have nightvision gear, says so in the codex and that's it.

Its funny you use the fluff when it comes to Hammerhead vs Leman Russes would mean that the HH win when they're outnumbered 5 to 1, on the TT, 5 LR would tear a HH in pieces, but the second the Imperium might get something nice out of their fluff its all ''OMG MODELS! AND RULES''

On an Armageddon-sized tabletop, the superior range and/or power of the HH (not to mention superior survivability from disruption pods and being skimmers) will allow it to punk the LR just as hard as it does in fluff.

And on an EPIC sized table, Basilisk artillery parks can drop you from across the table, substantially outside your own range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Ghazzy let Yarrick go cauze he's so much fun to fight against. If we're talking about the least evil race of 40k - that'd be orks or tyranids. They literally have no idea of what 'evil' in our understanding means.

Especially Nids. They're not even fighting. They're just trying to get galactic level takeout. After all, cheetahs aren't evil. Cheetahs are cool.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones.

erm ok but what about the rest of it? That the Tau are essentially fascists, have all the hallmarks of a fascist state, and here's the thing that I think some people are forgetting in regards to the Tau, that they're essentially a stand in for the myriad of alien empires and small factions that litter the universe of 40k? like the Bargheesi, or any of the other one mention races in codexes or rulebooks that give 40k it's vast feeling and setting. They're essentially there to remind us that there's more in the universe than the Imperium and the other big players.
In fact I'll go looking for an old Standard Bearer where Jervis basically said that Tau acted as such for 40k...
White Dwarf used to be cool :(

When did a fascist government ever say "you can keep your religion, culture, and form of government in fact, just send some guys to help us kill the orks that want to rampage through this system if they gets past [insert name of beleagured world here]

Besides, fascism also requires a large amount of cooperation between the government and large corporations, which the Tau don't have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Let me put it this way- it doesn't matter, ever, how many small-caliber bullets you fire at a tank. The tank isn't going to die from small-arms fire. Ever.
If you want to say Pask should have tank-hunter, great... but why can Pask pick up that assault rifle and blow up a tank?

Cause he uses superior tech according to rules.

I'm pretty sure magic spooge is an equally valid interpretation. It never says *why* he can do it. it certainly never says why no other Imperials can. Maybe the Void Dragon has blessed him.

Well, THE fascist government, as in mussolini's Italy, allowed religious freedom and refuted the idea of racial theory. These policies were reversed at the behest of the Nazi regime but still. Plenty of precedent.

As for government, you're just describing a protectorate. Most gakky imperial power established them in their past. It's basically holding a society hostage for economic gain. If they step out of line, they get smacked down.

EDiT: btw, your whole "only ignorant cultures who can't accept this ideology deserve extermination"spiel is super creepy dude.

Well, THE fascist government, as in mussolini's Italy, allowed religious freedom and refuted the idea of racial theory. These policies were reversed at the behest of the Nazi regime but still. Plenty of precedent.

Like most things its a mix.
Tau society-regimented communist with no opportunity to be divergent. I'd say this may be less of an issue biologically, but they do have an internal tribelike nature that is actively supressed. Physically expansionist.
Tau relations with subservient races- almost British Empire. Classic colonialism with a Warhammer added zest of occasional genocide, so more of a Belgium Empire in some aspects.
Tau relations with foreign powers-positively British Empire.

In relation to what OP said about the how the Tau treat their own, well if you were born with earth caste parents but like violence, well f you cause you can't fight, you can only work as a builder or scientist, no alternative. But I play Tau and I'll forgive the naïve little buggers anything.

 Frazzled wrote:

Well, THE fascist government, as in mussolini's Italy, allowed religious freedom and refuted the idea of racial theory. These policies were reversed at the behest of the Nazi regime but still. Plenty of precedent.

Like most things its a mix.
Tau society-regimented communist with no opportunity to be divergent. I'd say this may be less of an issue biologically, but they do have an internal tribelike nature that is actively supressed. Physically expansionist.
Tau relations with subservient races- almost British Empire. Classic colonialism with a Warhammer added zest of occasional genocide, so more of a Belgium Empire in some aspects.
Tau relations with foreign powers-positively British Empire.

Not at all. The British Empire were all about the balance of power. Maintaining a favourable, stable international system was their #1. If you're talking about their relation with indigenous peoples then sure. But the British would never ever enter into a war that wouldn't benefit them geopolitically or economically. They certainly would never pick a fight with a super power literally millions of times larger than themselves for no reason other than ideology. Ideology is how you get poor British boys to fight wars FOR you, not the reason to START a war. By god, man.

Uh, Las, you do know that the British Empire started coming apart at the seams as a direct result of going bankrupt because of World War 1, which we got involved with because our ideology refused to let us ignore a promise we'd made to Belgium over a hundred years previously, right?

 Psienesis wrote:
"
You may ask what gives the Imperium the right to consign a billion, or a quintillion, lives to oblivion... those who truly understand will realize that it has no right to let them live.

*Knowing smile of approval*

Ahh, back when the rulebook was mostly pictures and fluff, but I don't remember the quintillion bit, I'm fairly sure it was tens of billions.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, Las, you do know that the British Empire started coming apart at the seams as a direct result of going bankrupt because of World War 1, which we got involved with because our ideology refused to let us ignore a promise we'd made to Belgium over a hundred years previously, right?

That is an incredibly simplistic overview for the ignition of British involvement in the Great War. There was real economic and political gain possible as a result of shutting down Germany, the problem was that sometimes reality bites and governments make mistakes. I could talk to you about the upset to the diplomatic concert caused by Wilhelhmine weltpolitik, the perceived yet unfounded threat against British shipping through the naval acts, the worsening of Anglo-German relations during the Boer war, etc all day, and I really could (pm me) but we shouldn't do it here.

 Las wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, Las, you do know that the British Empire started coming apart at the seams as a direct result of going bankrupt because of World War 1, which we got involved with because our ideology refused to let us ignore a promise we'd made to Belgium over a hundred years previously, right?

That is an incredibly simplistic overview for the ignition of British involvement in the Great War. There was real economic and political gain possible as a result of shutting down Germany, the problem was that sometimes reality bites and governments make mistakes. I could talk to you about the upset to the diplomatic concert caused by Wilhelhmine weltpolitik, the perceived yet unfounded threat against British shipping through the naval acts, the worsening of Anglo-German relations during the Boer war, etc all day, and I really could (pm me) but we shouldn't do it here.

Las is completely right. Britain went to war for money. Picture yourself as PM in 1914, you are leader of the greatest trading country with the biggest Empire in the world.
If you don't respect international law and agreements, no one will want to trade with you, they'll think you'll screw with them, so to keep the money rolling in, Britain had to respect its international agreements.

The real death of the British Empire was WWII, that's when all the countries started dropping like flies in their eagerness for self-determination. Except for Gibraltar and the Falklands, for some reason.

 Las wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Well, THE fascist government, as in mussolini's Italy, allowed religious freedom and refuted the idea of racial theory. These policies were reversed at the behest of the Nazi regime but still. Plenty of precedent.

Like most things its a mix.
Tau society-regimented communist with no opportunity to be divergent. I'd say this may be less of an issue biologically, but they do have an internal tribelike nature that is actively supressed. Physically expansionist.
Tau relations with subservient races- almost British Empire. Classic colonialism with a Warhammer added zest of occasional genocide, so more of a Belgium Empire in some aspects.
Tau relations with foreign powers-positively British Empire.

Not at all. The British Empire were all about the balance of power. Maintaining a favourable, stable international system was their #1. If you're talking about their relation with indigenous peoples then sure. But the British would never ever enter into a war that wouldn't benefit them geopolitically or economically. They certainly would never pick a fight with a super power literally millions of times larger than themselves for no reason other than ideology. Ideology is how you get poor British boys to fight wars FOR you, not the reason to START a war. By god, man.

Yes I'm referring to the British and "indigineous people." However at the time of the wars for India, I'd proffer the various Indian states were regionally extremely powerful.

But On Topic: The Tau didn't go to war with the Imperium over idiology. They conquered territory.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeah, but you'd never see a human or a kroot as the grand poobah of the Tau Empire. The whole Empire was built on the principle that the Ethereals tell everyone what to do. That not only makes the Tau Empire an oligarchical tyranny but a racist oligarchical tyranny. It's just as likely that the Tau will regress further as a dictatorship and lose all pretense of "cooperation" as they will uplift subject races into direct leadership roles.

Coalition? No. They are on a path to conquer the entire galaxy in the name of their naive philosophy. Also, if a human colony staunchly refused to become a member of the Tau Empire even when they call in their Riptides would they just say, "Ok, cool, tell us if you change your mind!"? I highly doubt it.

The Tau Empire is based on the principle that the Ethereals know better than others how things should be. The origins of the Tau Empire are based in that. The four castes were at war, the Ethereals unified them, blah blah blah.

That's WHY they're at the top. When the other castes were in darkness, the Ethereals really did bring enlightenment and purpose.

Okay, they founded the Tau Empire. Now, are they willing to let the people they govern to decide who they are governed besides nicely asking? No. The Tau themselves wouldn't even consider it because the Ethereals have built up a cult of personality around themselves. feth, their brainwashing of the Tau is so complete that if they ordered one to kill themselves on the spot they would.

Further, the Tau consider themselves better than their subject races so I highly doubt they'd let them take any high leadership positions. The phrase used in the Codex is "First among equals", actually.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Las wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Well, THE fascist government, as in mussolini's Italy, allowed religious freedom and refuted the idea of racial theory. These policies were reversed at the behest of the Nazi regime but still. Plenty of precedent.

Like most things its a mix.
Tau society-regimented communist with no opportunity to be divergent. I'd say this may be less of an issue biologically, but they do have an internal tribelike nature that is actively supressed. Physically expansionist.
Tau relations with subservient races- almost British Empire. Classic colonialism with a Warhammer added zest of occasional genocide, so more of a Belgium Empire in some aspects.
Tau relations with foreign powers-positively British Empire.

Not at all. The British Empire were all about the balance of power. Maintaining a favourable, stable international system was their #1. If you're talking about their relation with indigenous peoples then sure. But the British would never ever enter into a war that wouldn't benefit them geopolitically or economically. They certainly would never pick a fight with a super power literally millions of times larger than themselves for no reason other than ideology. Ideology is how you get poor British boys to fight wars FOR you, not the reason to START a war. By god, man.

Yes I'm referring to the British and "indigineous people." However at the time of the wars for India, I'd proffer the various Indian states were regionally extremely powerful.

But On Topic: The Tau didn't go to war with the Imperium over idiology. They conquered territory.

The only reason they conquer is because their ideology requires them to. It's like the French Revolution or Stalinist Soviet Union. Their mandate is to export the "revolution".

Have to disagree. Unless they exist in a post scarcity economic system (in which case the rest of the galaxy needs to look out) they need resources. They established colonies and conquered those worlds for resources.

Ironically the Tau would be the best race noted if you are a similarly sized bordering race. You can trade with them and maintain relations, as long as it is apparent your strength is maintained (their relations with the Squats...er Demiurge are an example).

Unless they changed it, The tau didn't go to war with the IoM. The IoM went to war with the tau. You know the old suffer not the alien to live.

 Frazzled wrote:
Have to disagree. Unless they exist in a post scarcity economic system (in which case the rest of the galaxy needs to look out) they need resources. They established colonies and conquered those worlds for resources.

Ironically the Tau would be the best race noted if you are a similarly sized bordering race. You can trade with them and maintain relations, as long as it is apparent your styrength is maintained (their relations with the Squats...er Demiurge are an example).

I think you're correct but are missing a bit of my point. Since we don't really know anything about the ethereals, especially how firmly they actually believe in the ideology and if it's just a means to maintain their regime, the greater good is an excellent way to motivate the Tau toward never ending military expansion in order to secure enough resources to in turn fuel their rule. If you search "tau empire" on lexicanum it very clearly explains that every world the tau encounter they will attempt to subjugate. The Greater Good is the justification for this. Without the ideology there is no expansionism.

Edit: the imperium never would have even bothered without the provocation of aggressive provocation. Sure, they would've loved to, but vastness of the emperors realm and all that. The Tau just couldn't help themselves.

Come to think of it, there are some awesome parallels to Imperial Japan in there.

 Las wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Have to disagree. Unless they exist in a post scarcity economic system (in which case the rest of the galaxy needs to look out) they need resources. They established colonies and conquered those worlds for resources.

Ironically the Tau would be the best race noted if you are a similarly sized bordering race. You can trade with them and maintain relations, as long as it is apparent your styrength is maintained (their relations with the Squats...er Demiurge are an example).

I think you're correct but are missing a bit of my point. Since we don't really know anything about the ethereals, especially how firmly they actually believe in the ideology and if it's just a means to maintain their regime, the greater good is an excellent way to motivate the Tau toward never ending military expansion in order to secure enough resources to in turn fuel their rule. If you search "tau empire" on lexicanum it very clearly explains that every world the tau encounter they will attempt to subjugate. The Greater Good is the justification for this. Without the ideology there is no expansionism.

Ok, I'll agree with that statement.

 Las wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Have to disagree. Unless they exist in a post scarcity economic system (in which case the rest of the galaxy needs to look out) they need resources. They established colonies and conquered those worlds for resources.

Ironically the Tau would be the best race noted if you are a similarly sized bordering race. You can trade with them and maintain relations, as long as it is apparent your styrength is maintained (their relations with the Squats...er Demiurge are an example).

I think you're correct but are missing a bit of my point. Since we don't really know anything about the ethereals, especially how firmly they actually believe in the ideology and if it's just a means to maintain their regime, the greater good is an excellent way to motivate the Tau toward never ending military expansion in order to secure enough resources to in turn fuel their rule. If you search "tau empire" on lexicanum it very clearly explains that every world the tau encounter they will attempt to subjugate. The Greater Good is the justification for this. Without the ideology there is no expansionism.

Edit: the imperium never would have even bothered without the provocation of aggressive provocation. Sure, they would've loved to, but vastness of the emperors realm and all that. The Tau just couldn't help themselves.

Come to think of it, there are some awesome parallels to Imperial Japan in there.

Unless they changed it, the aggressive action your talking about was mostly trade deals.

In most of the fluff, the tau are collecting people, not really resources. The tau home wolds are very mineral rich. They live in a very rich part of the universe and some fluff even gives them terraform abilities. The tau more expand to meet new people and spread the GG. It's It's a very common theme in tau fluff that that are just accumulating all these cultures and allies. (A good chunk of their tech tree comes form other races. Unless that was changed without me being told.) I don't think there is a single minor race that hasn't been paired with the tau at at least one point. (Some of their pairings don't make sense, but this is 40k fluff we are talking about.)

That's the other half of what I'm saying, the Tau's ideology feeds their expansion. Trading is how it begins, but one way or another the Tau always attempt subjugation.

 Las wrote:
That's the other half of what I'm saying, the Tau's ideology feeds their expansion. Trading is how it begins, but one way or another the Tau always attempt subjugation.

I don't know if I would call it subjugation. It's like a unity under the GG thing. The codex makes it very clear first among equals. If it was a subjugation thing, then tau would be subjugated under it too. It is a neat take on them actually. The fluff seems to be implying something might be going on with the aun. (The entire GG might just be a nerocs idea of a joke.)

Oh I definitely think the Tau are subjugated as well. Racial caste systems tend to do that. I do like me some grimdark, though.

 Las wrote:
Oh I definitely think the Tau are subjugated as well. Racial caste systems tend to do that. I do like me some grimdark, though.

The cast system was something in place before the Aun. Depending on how you look at it. You had the distinct 4 tribes (with some of the differences I get the impression they might not be the same species anymore.) and the Aun basically enforced them in writing. A quest to be asked is do the tau mind it? Maybe. I mean the tau are aliens and this could be totally fine for their way of thinking, but they are aliens in fiction written by people, sot your going to see the writer projecting their feeling on to them. It's fun to think about.

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:
Oh I definitely think the Tau are subjugated as well. Racial caste systems tend to do that. I do like me some grimdark, though.

The cast system was something in place before the Aun. Depending on how you look at it. You had the distinct 4 tribes (with some of the differences I get the impression they might not be the same species anymore.) and the Aun basically enforced them in writing. A quest to be asked is do the tau mind it? Maybe. I mean the tau are aliens and this could be totally fine for their way of thinking, but they are aliens in fiction written by people, sot your going to see the writer projecting their feeling on to them. It's fun to think about.

Yeah, there were definite casts already, what the atherials did was sort of "officialize" it. And there was a genetic difference between them even then, and that was been exacerbated over the years. They are defiantly different sub-species, if not distinct species all by themselves. Inter-breeding is strictly forbidden, so there is no real way to tell how different they truley are. Not only that, the caste system is quite intersesting, all castes but the Aun are equal, not like the indian caste system.

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?