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 Bottle wrote:
- don't touch other's miniatures without permission, and once given hold them by the base at all times.

Forgot to add that to my list, that one is crucial too.

I only have a few rules, mostly unspoken.

1) The priority is to ensure the opponent has a fun game, no matter what. Regardless of the score, if my opponent didn't enjoy the game, I've lost and failed.

2) If it's cool, screw the rules! So long as the opponent agrees, I'm more than happy to cast the rules aside for the sake of cool stuff. Things like fighting a combat past the last turn to see who would have won, allowing an impossible move (say a SM captain jumping an imassable gap to get into combat, with a 'jump test' to see if he made it) , or any kind of other change that makes the game more fun for both sides.

That's about it.

 Peregrine wrote:

IOW, wasting time instead of just rolling the dice and finishing the game at an efficient pace. How exactly is that NOT annoying?

If I wanted to play against a mute robot, I'd play a computer game, or just set up two lists from my own army and try to objectively play both.
I play multiplayer games because I want to play it with another player.

Also psych warfare isn't just limited to words. Even some moves in the game can fit the definition. EG If I knew my opponent wasn't really up on his knowledge of my army (my list and codex are fair game for my opponent at all times during a game,) and I had a unit in a vulnerable spot, say Mephy close to a bunch of meganobz, (I would literally never let meph get close to meganobz, but anyway...) I might move a bunch of assault marines nearby hoping that he'll view them as more dangerous, and hoping that his knowledge is lacking in exactly how good of an opportunity he has to take out Mephy before he goes on a rampage through the rest of his dudes.

Even the smallest of actions in a game can be taken as a psychological attack. It's also a standard part of playing with another person. You can play the opponent, rather than just try to use them as a replacement for a computer AI for your 1 player boardgame.

I'd also say, that what you mean by psychological warfare is just simply being a dick. You are there to have fun and even these "interesting move, but okay" kind of stuff is annoying and takes the fun out of it. When the game is competitive, not only for fun, tournament e.g., then it changes a bit. Then you don't need to/shouldn't help your opponent, but still have to be fair and don't be a dick.

Really, the only rule to have a good game is just don't be a dick.

Edit: If you need to ask yourself the question "was that a dickish move?" than it pretty likely was.

Mine are:
1. dice that fall out of your grip during a mass roll, and any that miss the table, are rerolled. When a die is cocked, if we can tell that simply removing the obstruction directly away from the die will obviously make it land on a certain number, then that's the number.

2. I try to match list-power based on how extensive my opponent's experience and collection are. If you have 20000 points and have played since RT, I'll bring some of my higher tier stuff. If you barely make 1500 and you can still count the number of games you've played, I'll use junk like Dantewing or other less than ideal lists. I also don't bring a flyer If I know you don't have anti air in your collection, and don't bring high AV if your collection lacks a way to deal with it.
2a. I make every friendly list have at least some armor value and some toughness accessible to the opponent.

3. If I forget something that would benefit me, I have the entire phase to remember it, even if we've already done that shooting/combat or whatever. If you forget a rule that would be detrimental to me, you also have the entire phase to remember it, else it gets lost.
On the other hand, if you forget a rule from your own army that is actually a detriment to you, (such as stubborn when you wanted the unit to run, or forgetting to do the wounds from a mob rule ork result) we will do our best to time travel and fix it.

4. Lists I don't use unless being competitive: either all-armor or no-armor spam, null or almost null deployment lists. Big lords of war. Those tend to make games very one sided and not fun for the unprepared.

5. I don't turn down FW, IA, old codices, LOW, or even house rules if you ask beforehand. I do expect to be warned that "you want to bring an unspecified big (500+ points) lord of war" before I pick a list, but you don't need to tell me which one.

6. I will always declare what the dice are for before rolling them, and make sure my opponent is watching and ready.

LordBlades wrote:
Gaming skill can only take you so far, unless you're the best gamer to walk the face of the Earth by a large margin. Sooner or later you will encounter people of equal skill who employ psychological warfare, and consequently win more.

Maybe that's the problem. This is clearly WAAC. And that's not really a good thing. Neither for you nor your opponent. If you really want to win that much, you have some problems with yourself.

 Peregrine wrote:


Saying things like "are you sure you want to do that" is just annoying. You and I both know that you're not giving me honest advice, so all you're doing is making pointless noise and delaying my dice rolls.

It sounds like playing you would be the worst 40k experience I could ever have. If I rolled up to my LGS to play a guy who just wanted to throw dice and for me to keep my mouth shut rather than actually be social, I would reconsider if even playing was worth it. I'm in the game to play with people, not robots. I have plenty of one player strategy games on PC and consoles.

Use common sense in poorly written rules- RAI over RAW(atleast in most situations)
Don't touch other guy's minis without his permission
Don't try to use stupid mistakes the opponent makes for your advantage unless he himself is doing so(say drop pod lands, he forgets to move rest of his army and i don't allow him to do so since he grabbed the dice and said he shoots even if he pulled it back half a second later)
Be friendly
If playing competitive/cheesy list, warn the opponent in advance and ESPECIALLY the new players, play against them with such list only if they have no one else to play and want to learn the basics, if possible, change the list
Forge world is absolutely A-OK if you have the up to date rules(or know them)
Goal is to win the purpose is to have fun!

Zsolt wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Gaming skill can only take you so far, unless you're the best gamer to walk the face of the Earth by a large margin. Sooner or later you will encounter people of equal skill who employ psychological warfare, and consequently win more.

Maybe that's the problem. This is clearly WAAC. And that's not really a good thing. Neither for you nor your opponent. If you really want to win that much, you have some problems with yourself.

I don't agree. Sometimes games get to a situation where a battle of wits actually makes a difference, and we heartily enjoy it when it shows up.

I view psychological warfare as "any move I make with the fact that the opponent is human and not a computer in mind." Which covers a VERY wide range of moves. Against a computer that would simply look at the board and calculate odds, I may not make the move at all. But against a player, I might move that unit say...second or third so that it seems unassuming, and then go on moving the rest of my dudes, hoping that he'll either not notice or forget just how important that unit's position is.

It's nice to feel like you brought more to the table than just a list and some dice, but rather also brought your mind to the game as well.

Does cornering your opponent and calling him a nerd as he cowers in the corner of the room constitute psychological warfare?

My rules:

1. Clear up clarification between unclear rules (ie TWC, Psychic Phase in general) if necessary
2. Make sure I have BRB handy if need be and play by rules
3. Make sure board has sufficient terrain
4. Make sure opponent knows exactly what I have in my army and vice versa (lists printed out are good for this)
5. Make opponent aware of what I'm doing (ie, moving a unit, firing with this unit, running, charging)
6. Prompt the opponent for Jink and Overwatch before I make the rolls
7. Make sure opponent can see dice rolls and vice versa
8. Be respectful - don't touch opponents models without asking, don't trash-talk unless it's banter with someone I know, have fun, don't put them down
9. Be modest if I win and give tips out to theopponent on what they did well and what they could improve. Compliment the opponnent's tactics if I lose and congratulate them on the win
10. Thank opponent for the game and shake hands.

In regard to Rule 4, I almost always take the most competitive list I can field. In my opinion, the best way to help someone improve is to field the toughest lists so that they can learn how to beat an army. If they refuse to play against that list, I will either let them edit their list to account for mine, or create another list that is a bit more casual. It is, after all, a game.

There is an 11th rule, which only really comes into play against competitive opponents, which is employing the use of psychological warfare. But as Peregrine has touched upon, I consider there to be a fine line between psychological warfare and being annoying and unsportsmanlike.

'That's an interesting move, but OK' is an example of psychological warfare. It makes your opponent second guess whether it's the best thing to do what they were going to do.
'This unit is going to kill whatever it fires at' is another example. It can potentially put that unit higher up on the priority list, leaving the rest of the army unharmed.
'Are you finished yet?' is an example of being a grade A douche bag. You're trying to make your opponent miss out on using their stuff so you can get to your turn quicker.

Thankfully, I'm yet to encounter an opponent who employs the use of 'Are you finished yet?' at my new gaming club. I did have one such opponent at my old gaming club and eloquently responded with, 'No, I've only just started with my Shooting Phase. Let's see how quickly this unit dies'. Re-focused their attention on the battlefield, which was just as well as I cut a bloody pathway through their army that turn.

I dunno, if I heard 'Interesting move, but ok' or any variation thereof more than once in the game, I'd chalk it up as being equally irritating as 'are you done yet'.

If you want to talk and socialize with your opponent during the game then just do so. Doing so under some pretense of 'psychological warfare' just feels so petty to me.

Verviedi wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
How is psychological warfare a dick move? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, it's an integral part of the game.

Psychological warfare is insulting your opponent or their skills to make them play poorly. What you refer to is gameplay.

Nope. That's just straight up abuse/being a dick.

Psychological warfare is an art, and when done properly can be a thing of beauty. Just looks at Ferguson and Rafa Benitez a few years ago in the Premier League. I wouldn't recommend it for games of goblins though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Or maybe you jsut genuinely like the guy's models, you're just picking the right (or wrong) time to say it?

If you genuinely want to give a compliment then do it before or after the game. Using a compliment as a strategic distraction means that you care much less about the compliment itself than how it can be used to gain some tiny advantage in the game. That's the kind of calculating behavior that sociopaths embrace, not something you should do if you're genuinely just trying to be nice.

Also, do you mean to imply thinking and calculating is annoying?

Only if you're just pretending to think and calculate about a trivial decision because of "psychological warfare". If you're honestly thinking about a decision that's fine. If you know exactly what you're going to do and you're just pretending to think so that I'll make a mistake then stop wasting my time.

Wowsa.

Kurt Cobain nailed this: Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you...

I can't imagine playing someone who thinks that talking is a gamey bastards move. Games can be pretty boring for good long chunks, and a bit of chatter breaks it up a bit.

A lad I played recently deployed his Black Coach behind some dogs but within a charge range of my Cold Ones Cav (odd set up for AMBUSH!). "Are you really sure you want to put your beautifully painted model there?" I asked.

He thought it through, and decide that yeah, that was fine. I had it in combat from Turn 2 and dead in Turn 3.

He was a top lad, and I was genuinely asking him he thought that was wise. No gameyness or being a twunt invloved.

My "view" (more than code) is:
1. Rules
1a. I'll follow Brb, Codices and faqs rules.
1b. If or when interpretation comes into play, I'll suggest the logical approach firat, then try and come to an agreement, the more objective the better.
1c. Agree and abide to the army restrictions, be them points, unbound, cad number, named characters and so on.

2. Dice
2a. I made a dice tower to avoid awkward rolls, lost dice et cetera, so I'll use it, if my opponent doesn't have problems with it.
2b. In any case, agree beforehand to when rerolling is allowed or not.

3. Interaction
3a. Never curse, especially with younger people present, and ask the opponent at least to not swear.
3b. Never touch opponent's model without permission and anywhere else than the base. Casualties are removed by the owner, always.
3c. More valid in more crowded places: deodorant is a nice invention, but soap is even a better one.

No take backs. RAW and ETC rules pack. \Not playing where Wisla Fans live. Only 4 rules I have.

Hmmm "code of honor"?

1) Play by the rules or you are not playing a "game".
2) Do your best, if you find you have overly outmatched your opponent, set new goals to make it harder for yourself (handicap).
3) Always have fun, find fun in what you do. If you cannot, figure out what was going wrong and don't let it happen again.
4) If convenient to do so, help out your opponent with small rule stuff or reminders only if they appreciate the assistance (new player, distracted / tired).

This is pretty much to ensure for selfish reasons I always enjoy my hobby and can guarantee almost everyone is happy to play a game with me.

The Core Tenets, the main values of the club I helped to found's playerbase.

Gaming:

- I will not blame the dice (however tempting).

- When things go against me, I will try to make light of it. If I am unable to do so, then I will simply keep my cool and not get angry.

- If I remember an important rule that my opponent appears to have forgotten, I will remind him of it.

- Likewise, if they have forgotten something like declaring a charge, shooting with a unit or any such, I will allow them to do so. This is obviously providing that they remember in a reasonable time-frame. Remembering that they haven't shot with a unit during the subsequent assault phase is fine. If you remember 3 turns later, no, sorry.

- I will not use any powers that I consider broken. e.g. If I roll Invisibility, then I will either ask if I can reroll it, or simply not cast it.


List Building:

- Whenever your 1500pt list comes to 1497pts, a puppy dies.

- None of my Warlords will have an AV value.

- I will never build an army around trying to get off some broken power, combo any such.

- I will avoid Death Stars. If 2 Sith Lords couldn't make them work, what chance to I stand?

- Allies, Supplements, Fliers, Super Heavies and Knights can sod off and die in agony.

- I will try to give my Warlord at least a bit of gear, even when it costs twice as much as it should (*cough* Imperial Guard *Cough*). Having a bare-bones HQ just feels really lacking in character.

Zsolt wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Gaming skill can only take you so far, unless you're the best gamer to walk the face of the Earth by a large margin. Sooner or later you will encounter people of equal skill who employ psychological warfare, and consequently win more.

Maybe that's the problem. This is clearly WAAC. And that's not really a good thing. Neither for you nor your opponent. If you really want to win that much, you have some problems with yourself.

The line between legit strategy and what's called WAAC around here is different from person to person. Personally I really enjoy doimg my best to hide my real game plan through on and off-table misdirection and tryong to guess my opponent's despite his efforts to hide it.

1. Follow the rules
2. Cocked dice are rerolled dice
3. Be chill
4. If kids are present or my opponent finds it offensive, watch my tongue.
5. Ask permission before picking up an opponent's model, and if permission is granted, pick up by the base if applicable (vehicles typically being the exception)
6. Avoid sharing dice unless absolutely necessary for game play.
7. Always be pleasant, even if my opponent is TFG x11
8. Beat TFG every. Single. Time.
9. Use lists that I have to fight tooth and nail to win with. Lists that I actually have to figure out a POA.
10. When playing an unskilled opponent, figure out a way to make it as fun of a game for him too. If playing against said player regularly, the occasional self-indulgent slaughter is okay.
11. Have fun.

 Rysaer wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
- don't touch other's miniatures without permission, and once given hold them by the base at all times.

Forgot to add that to my list, that one is crucial too.

Yes, please hold my Harridan by his base....

1. Follow the rules.
2. No Riptides.
3. Psychological Warfare, is confined to the game table. Moving figures to make him second guess moves is fine. Talking to him to make him second guess is not.
4. Really, no Riptides.
5. List tailoring against a faction is fine, against a player its not.
6. Blaming dice is fine if say you roll 5 1s on 5 dice, but don't take it out on your opponent. They didn't roll the dice.
7. Riptides do not fit a Tau army.

Cheers

PS I only have a Tau army, and not one Riptide!

 AndrewC wrote:
1. Follow the rules.
2. No Riptides.
3. Psychological Warfare, is confined to the game table. Moving figures to make him second guess moves is fine. Talking to him to make him second guess is not.
4. Really, no Riptides.
5. List tailoring against a faction is fine, against a player its not.
6. Blaming dice is fine if say you roll 5 1s on 5 dice, but don't take it out on your opponent. They didn't roll the dice.
7. Riptides do not fit a Tau army.

Cheers

PS I only have a Tau army, and not one Riptide!

Anyway... mine are

1. 1st game against someone only bring infantry, 2nd game bring vehicles, 3rd game go all out.
2. Never touch the opponent's models, even when given permission, I am walking bad luck.
3. Dice has to be flat and inside the rolling tray.
4. No "aaaaaagh" or "uuuuuuugh"ing in a game, just unpolite and takes away the fun for the opponent (so just be nice in general)
5. I always bring terrain, give the opponent the option to play with it. They almost always say yea, more terrain = more fun.
6. If unsure about a rule always rule in the opposing players favor.
7. Winner buys drinks.

Hulk... SMASH!!!!

Well, seriously, I just try to have fun. If there is an ambiguous rule, I'll just let my opponent have it, and rules-lawyer it later.

I don't play with people I don't like, except maybe to stomp them once And as you say, I never touch my opponents models, including rolling dice near them (we use dice trays anyhow). My army list, including point costs is on a spreadsheet and my opponent can look at it any time, and I have the relevant codex pages for unusual units photocopied with my list.

<Edited out for TMI>

Same rules for me as I apply to myself in any situation in any place.
1. Dont be a jerk
2. Treat everyone with dignity and respect always being polite. Sometimes that is hard to do when there is someone being absolutely rude and impolite to me first but I still manage to pull it off.
3. Always be honest.

niv-mizzet wrote:It sounds like playing you would be the worst 40k experience I could ever have. If I rolled up to my LGS to play a guy who just wanted to throw dice and for me to keep my mouth shut rather than actually be social, I would reconsider if even playing was worth it. I'm in the game to play with people, not robots. I have plenty of one player strategy games on PC and consoles.

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between talking because you want to have a social event, and talking as nothing more than a coldly calculated attempt to distract your opponent with the conversation and hope that they make a mistake? One is having a pleasant afternoon of social gaming, the other is the kind of manipulative behavior that sociopaths embrace.

Also psych warfare isn't just limited to words. Even some moves in the game can fit the definition. EG If I knew my opponent wasn't really up on his knowledge of my army (my list and codex are fair game for my opponent at all times during a game,) and I had a unit in a vulnerable spot, say Mephy close to a bunch of meganobz, (I would literally never let meph get close to meganobz, but anyway...) I might move a bunch of assault marines nearby hoping that he'll view them as more dangerous, and hoping that his knowledge is lacking in exactly how good of an opportunity he has to take out Mephy before he goes on a rampage through the rest of his dudes.

That's not the same thing at all, and not what most people mean when they talk about "psychological warfare". Using a deceptive strategy within the rules is a legitimate way of playing the game. Trying to distract your opponent outside the game so that they make a mistake is not.

I can't imagine playing someone who thinks that talking is a gamey bastards move.

Then maybe you should go back and read the posts where people explicitly suggested using a "conversation" as an opportunity to distract their opponent and gain a tiny advantage.

- Don't be a dick

Yep that's pretty much it

 Peregrine wrote:

I can't imagine playing someone who thinks that talking is a gamey bastards move.

Then maybe you should go back and read the posts where people explicitly suggested using a "conversation" as an opportunity to distract their opponent and gain a tiny advantage.

I suppose you could politely ask your opponent to keep schtum whilst you have your turn, and count yourself fortunate if they carry on with the game!

But if it's such a tiny advantage what does it matter anyway? It just seems like you'd look for any excuse to pack up and storm off if the game wasn't going your way, to be honest.

- Always play with a smile. It makes for more pleasant games, and helps unnerve people who don't follow the spirit of the game.
- No going back in time - if a mistake is made and we realise it a phase on, it stays made.
- If someone makes a mistake that requires time travel to fix, give them a concession over a bad dice roll in the future.
- Play down to the wire. Even if it looks like you've lost, keep playing, because cheating people of real wins is petty.
- If the game is cut short, treat it as if the game ended there, don' insist 'well, if we had one more turn, that would have happened, so I won even though I was losing'.
- Never touch anybody's model without permission.
- If there's any doubt as to the legitimacy of any die, reroll it.
- The game should be as much Xanatos Speed Chess as a strategic wargame. The winner is the one who can break the gambit... or outsmart it.