Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The irony being I love 40K as a universe/setting, still put more hobby time into painting and modelling 40K stuff than any other system, play regularly (albeit not for about 6 weeks, does that mean I've quit in the Runicverse?) passionately want the people making the decisions about the future of the game to treat it with the same affection I feel for it, and I'm happy to praise GW if they do something I feel is worthy of praise (which is why I frequently say that if I come across as anti-GW, it says more for GW's actions than it does for my attitude, I have no compunction about coming across as a raving fanboy if GW start knocking it out of the park.)

I haven't quit, I don't intend to quit, but I certainly avoid giving GW money for things I don't think are of sufficient quality to deserve it as much as possible.

But yeah, I'm (possibly) one of the four anti-GW Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Or perhaps I'm just one of the four GW-critical Infantrymen of the Escalation?

It depends if you view bundles as a stupid marketing trick or a brilliant way of buying an army without having to do research or more than one click.

Well, that would depend if we're discussing the ones that offer a genuine saving or the ones that just look like they're offering a saving..

When you're on an Internet Clicking Ration, every bit from GW helps.

Great post Azrael.

Hey, 7500+ posts, it was bound to happen eventually!

Now we wait for 15000 for your next one.

Better give me to 20K.

Difficult second good post syndrome and all...

That's roughly 5 years away.

Yeah alright, its not like I'm doing anything else on the internet.

 MWHistorian wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

Anyway, the Four Anti-GW Horsemen

Oooh, is that me?
Can I be Death? I always wanted a white horse, but all my ponies were various shades of brown! (Oh, no, I did have a grey, but that's like having a white horse that needs a hot wash.)

You, MWH, Blacksails and either me or Peregrine, I'd guess.

There's nothing like dehumanizing your opponents to discount their opinion.
Remember, he also said we have a secret club...or was it a chat room. I forget. Either way, I imagine it like the Legion of Doom.

I am not quite there yet...
Could I be a lesser member maybe "Severe Hangnail" or "Nausea"?
My horse will be named "Timmy".

We had a kid named "Cheesy" at our local store way before 1998, lol.

 Talizvar wrote:

Spoiler:

 MWHistorian wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

Anyway, the Four Anti-GW Horsemen

Oooh, is that me?
Can I be Death? I always wanted a white horse, but all my ponies were various shades of brown! (Oh, no, I did have a grey, but that's like having a white horse that needs a hot wash.)

You, MWH, Blacksails and either me or Peregrine, I'd guess.

There's nothing like dehumanizing your opponents to discount their opinion.
Remember, he also said we have a secret club...or was it a chat room. I forget. Either way, I imagine it like the Legion of Doom.

I am not quite there yet...
Could I be a lesser member maybe "Severe Hangnail" or "Nausea"?
My horse will be named "Timmy".

Your name will be Explosive Diarrhoea.

And you can have a donkey.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Your name will be Explosive Diarrhoea.

And you can have a donkey.

He needs a banner for his sig now.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Well I found this very interesting indeed.

It is true: we focus enormously on list building. And it's also true that the ART of it is somewhat undermined by the science of trying to win.

It's just true. And I like these excerpts because they kind of illustrate the intent of the game very clearly. Thanks for sharing them.

Please explain how 'trying to win' is a bad thing in a two player competitive war game?

I don't recall saying that. So i won't try to "explain" it to you.

 Blacksails wrote:
I shotgun War.

Meh. What's he good for?

Talys wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Like I said, that's because GW isn't making that claim. My actual argument is that GW doesn't care about balance. "Is this balanced" is not a question they care about when they're writing rules. You're supposed to collect the models you like, roll some dice, and forge a narrative about whatever happens. Who cares if a unit/army/whatever isn't balanced, if you're Collecting™ Citadel™ Miniatures™ the right way the lack of balance isn't going to matter at all.

Oh, okay. You're saying that GW doesn't care about game balance, and that people who play 40k also don't care about game balance. I don't think either is particularly true. In 7th edition, there are a very small number of spammy builds, and none of them are even tournament winners.

Now, if you say, 40k has units that are overpowered for their point cost, or have abilities that are just too good, I will wholeheartedly agree. I will also agree that GW isn't very good at balancing units, especially to avoid powergamer abuse.

I won't agree that GW doesn't ever do or care about balance, because from version to version, they nerf/change all sorts of things that people cry about.

Spam lists don't do well in tournaments? You mean other than serpent spam, eldar jetbike spam, drop pod melta spam, SM bike spam and IK spam, which have all taken multiple top 10 spots in GTs since 7th came out.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Everyone except Games Workshop that is. Why would they change a business model that has worked for 20 years?

For one, because it's no longer working, as others have pointed out.

For two, they already have changed their business model a fair amount over those 20 years. They've been steadily working towards fewer models for more money, and placing less emphasis on developing their game rules in favour of just pushing out shiny toys. They're constantly changing the way they publish rules, and the way they present those rules to their customers.



For all the faults of earlier editions of the game, the studio put a lot more effort into getting the rules right for 2nd and 3rd ed than they have in subsequent editions, barring possibly 5th.



The big thing, though, is simply that the industry has changed. 20 years ago there were far fewer fish in the Fantasy/Sci Fi gaming pond. These days, they're everywhere. Other companies with cheaper, or better (or both) product, that are steadily gaining market share while GW declines. In those 20 years, we've also seen the retail industry as a whole start to change due to the growth of the internet... something that GW still views as some sort of aberration and is trying their darndest to fight against.

For GW to grow, they need to accept that their place as the big fish can only coast on momentum for so long. They can only trim so much fat, and only push prices so far, before something gives. Sooner or later, they'll have to go back to actually offering the best product in order to maintain that top spot.

 insaniak wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:
Everyone except Games Workshop that is. Why would they change a business model that has worked for 20 years?

For one, because it's no longer working, as others have pointed out.

The business model, or perhaps it's better to say [b]an aspect of their business model[b] is to constantly re-write the rules. I was interested in discussing that aspect of GW's business plan. I thought that was clear in my posts, obviously I was mistaken.

Why? Because it drives sales. It sells books and it sells models. A few pages back someone asked if it could be a conspiracy that GW makes bad rules, so they can re-write. It's no conspiracy. It's as plain as day. In general terms it's called Planned Obsolescence. For those of you who are not familiar. It is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so it will become obsolete. In this case GW just published some new rules and makes the previous ones obsolete. Two rules editions in two years! That's a good example.

This is why I say GW doesn't care about "the spirit of the game". Because they are no longer the company that existed in 1998. They have transitioned from a games developer and model producer to a more pure corporate entity. They are in business to make money. The game designers now are employees, not leaders. They are not the Jervis' or Andy's or Rick's. They are told to produce new rules in a certain amount of time to make a publisher's date and sales schedule. Timely updates in FAQ's and Errata would go a long way to fix some issues, but... they don't bother.

We all know GW has the largest network of players globally. They know that when a new set of rules or codex is published an overwhelming majority of people who plays their game buys that product. How many people do you know are still playing old editions? I'm sure there are a few holdouts here and there.

This isn't something uncommon. Look around and examine other business's. Apple makes new Iphones like clock work. Video game companies make 1/2 a game and sell it for full price, then expect you to buy the DLC to open up the rest of the content.

And with regards to the rules themselves. Meh, GW don't appear to be putting any superior effort into making the game dramatically more balanced. Some units have languished in the realm of suck for so long (I'm looking at you Rough Riders) that it's almost criminal. And as far as the core rules go, they remove whole sections (i.e. ruins 6ed) and replace them with a paragraph or two; and then continue to add more bloat in other areas. There is no question that 40k is a bit of a mess, which can be mitigated if you are in a club, or play with a steady group of friends. However it's even more frustrating if you play pick up games. As for myself, I'm getting tired of asking pick-up opponents "So... how do you want to handle Psychic Shriek?".

For myself, the 'spirit of the game' is to have an enjoyable experience across all aspects of the hobby. When discussing modeling or painting with others, I try to give honest feedback, and encourage them to challenge themselves with their modeling and painting projects. I make an effort to engage them about their armies, how did it evolve, what aspects they like and dislike, any cool moments from past games.

When it comes to having a game, I want the game to be enjoyable for both my opponent and myself. And I am confident identifying my expectations with an opponent before a game. And if there are some blurry rules I bring them up too, before the game. Regrettably for some of you, 40k is a game that requires that sometimes. There is no getting around this. It's always been this way.

The danger of that approach is that if your rules re-write is poorly received, you lose players. Particularly when you combine it with steadily increasing prices and decreasing quality control.


The thing that puzzles me is that GW's approach is decidedly schizophrenic. The 'constantly change your rules' approach is geared to keep squeezing money from existing gamers. But we constantly hear (and see, from their lack of product support) that existing gamers aren't GW's focus... New gamers, who are walking into stores (apparently) with their life savings burning a hole in the wallets are supposedly the target. And the new-rules-cycle has no purpose against that target. New gamers don't care about the changes from last edition. They don't have an army to update. They need a codex, and the fact that the codex was changed three weeks ago has no bearing on that. They don't care in the slightest if the game is currently in its 5th or 6th incarnation... they're only concerned with the current rules. And the bewildering array of current rules, often published across multiple editions and thus leading to even more confusion about just what they need to buy, seems counter-productive.

If GW truly want to target new customers, then it just seems that wasting resources constantly changing their rules is a complete waste of time. And if they want to target veteran gamers, constantly changing their rules is similarly counter-productive (as it annoys people) and takes time away from fixing the issues in the current system (which would actually go a long way towards keeping the veterans on-side.

So it seems, from the safety of my armchair, that it would be a far, far better approach for everyone concerned if GW just stuck with a ruleset and concentrated on fixing and improving it, rather than just changing it.

GW released 7th as a quick cash grab, changing the rules for the sake of it.

Spartan Games, a week later, change there rules for the purpose of fixing them, streamlining them and balancing them.

Dyst wars 2.0 outsold 7th ed 7 to 1 at Australia's biggest FLGS (and probably biggest online store, I couldn't actually confirm that though). I really don't think changing rules for the sake of it is that good of a business plan. Maybe back before they had real competition but its not the 90s any more.

The irony here is that GW makes rules with the intent to sell more models, but their fethed up rules have caused a lot of people to stop buying completely. If they made better rules that were actually balanced and had depth instead of randomness and complexity for the sake of complexity, the models would be flying off the shelf. The number one reason I hear for why people stopped buying GW is the rules. They don't mind paying the prices as they're content buying PP stuff which is just as expensive per model and to have multiple 35 or 50 point lists. They don't mind the cost because the rules are solid which gives the impression that the company cares about the game and the customers instead of just the profit margin. A lot of people who switched to games like WMH still prefer the 40k models, aesthetics and fluff, they just can't tolerate the awful rules when the competition has done so much better in that aspect of the hobby. If GW did this mystical thing called MARKET RESEARCH they would understand this. Unbound might sell a few more models to a few people, but if it makes 50% of the player base rage quit it doesn't help the company's bottom line very much. I'm also tired of them using "forge the narrative!" as an excuse for writing atrocious rules. There's nothing narrative about my rune priest getting a trait that only benefits TWC when I don't have any TWC in my list. There's nothing narrative about my rune priest forgetting his psychic specialty and learning 2 powers at random before each battle. Can anyone tell me what's so narrative about random tables for every little thing?

I agree with what others have said about army selection. The creators of the game say that spamming certain units isn't fluffy. How about preventing that in the rules?! Units like a riptide or wraithknight should have a highlander rule, 1 per detachment to represent their rarity in the fluff and how severe of a loss it is to lose one in battle. In a small battle, let's say 1500 points, no commander is going to commit 6 riptides to that battle. It would be far too risky. But instead of writing rules to mitigate these kind of shenanigans that don't fit the fluff for a narrative game and are far too broken for a competitive game, they say "take anything you want!" Then when people abuse it, which anyone with common sense would realize that was inevitable, they blame the players for playing by the rules they created.

FW has its niche carved out for it.

HH book 4 essentially said "7th ed sucks and you should ignore certain parts of it."

They INTERACT with their fanbase.

They actually bother to write good rules and put effort into the models.

@ insaniak

Yes, it is true. On the surface GW's approach seems odd. I have been a long time player of GW games and I too wish that some day they will just 'finish' writing the rules. Of course, decades of this GW behavior has desensitized me LOL. But I have come to expect it since 3rd ed so....

Consider this. Most people get into the game when they are young, mid teens let's say. They don't have the same expectations as a mature customer. Rules changes for them are exciting! It's new! They are more likely to play with their friends, not cross the city alone to play a pick-up game with some stranger. So when it comes to a 'broken' rule, they just fix it themselves. So this is how they are introduced to the game.

Compare video game companies to GW. Are they really that different? Video game makers have been doing this for the last 10 years, buggy releases and many many patches. By the time a game is patched, the next one is "Coming Soon!" Now a days they sell you half a game, and offer you DLC! Some games are total crap, but they got the money from ya! Guess what, everyone can't wait for the next one! Total War series comes to mind... I now wait 12 months after release before buying.

Now assuming they stick with it, they are into the whole hobby, they have a couple armies etc... It has just become normal that this is the way it is. For the vast majority of players, they never think twice about it. It's all they have known. Although now that I am older I recognize what they are doing, publishing new stuff to make more money. However, 40k and the hobby (not the HOBBY LOL) give me a lot of enjoyment. So I stick with it.

I know there are other games, which are better written. I used to play all kinds when I was younger. But instead of spreading my time broadly across several games etc. I choose to focus on 40k. I go to sea for a living, heading home right now actually . I work for a month and then have a month off. 30 days completely free! If I am lucky I still only get to play 2-3 games and a few afternoons of hobby time when home. But in the end, I choose to invest my time and money into GW's product. I am sure there are a lot of people like me.

You suggest that GW are wasting resources working on new rules instead of making the rules they have better. I really don't think GW is putting a lot of resources into the game design side of their business to begin with. So any waste is minimal, with respect to the whole business. I mean 7th ed pretty much threw away terrain rules and said "make your own", so I did LOL data sheets and everything!

About the schizophrenic approach. It's not really all that far out there. It just seems more unusual in the context of gamers. But here's a non-gamer example. Costco. My wife convinced me to join in the fall. You can't walk in the door if you don't buy a membership,as I learned. There is a hugely successful retailer who excludes a huge number of existing consumers. And don't even get me started on "Costco People", it's like a cult; sort of like GW? As well, look at high end retailers. Nordstrom is opening here in Canada. Nothing in that store is cheap. They are targeting a specific consumer class. Perhaps GW is doing the same?

As it stands right now. GW believes that it's recent troubles has been due to restructuring and other internal issues. Not dramatically falling sales, or massive loss of market share. So really, the only thing to do is wait and see if they are right.

Anyway, I have to go on back on watch. I hope this opens up some new perspectives and ideas.

@SpookyRuben -- nice post! Be safe

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
FW has its niche carved out for it.

HH book 4 essentially said "7th ed sucks and you should ignore certain parts of it."

They INTERACT with their fanbase.

They actually bother to write good rules and put effort into the models.

I agree with most of what you have written. I really like the Forge World stuff too.

Forge World is also smaller, and each release is a Big Release. They only work on one Book at a time, and it is a far more collabrative effort amongst the whole studio. Really you're describing GW back in the 90's. As for interaction. They are dealing with a much smaller number of customers, so it is easier to manage. And to the best of my knowledge they are live interactions. I know they used to have an online presence but they discontinued this?

Keep in mind though. You pay a significant premium for all of this.

Simple comparisons

10 Cadians from GW 18 GBP (multipart kit)
10 Death Korp from FW 39 GBP (single pose)

I just had a funny thought. Perhaps Forge World is a test program of sorts. What would we do if GW suddenly doubled or their prices and approached the game side of the busniness like Forge World does. Are we missing something here I wonder?

Extra Note:

Market Research: GW controls every aspect of the product chain; from procurement of materials to manufacturing to sales and distribution. They know what sells and what doesn't far better than most companies. Each time the clerk at the store rings you in at a GW shop (at least mine), they ask your name, it's logged on 'your' account. And if that isn't enough information for them, they can browse this forum for information. They may not admit to this last bit, but anyone who thinks that the folks at GW don't look online from time to time are just being foolish. The only grey area is non-GW sellers, but even then, given enough time they can gather an accurate picture of the market.

So do they really need to come out and pay to do market research? Because that's what other companies pay out the nose for. Information that GW already has. In other words, GW doesn't need Air Miles.

-so much for my coffee and smoke before watch. LOL

Well yeah for a Death Korps army you have to sacrifice your firstborn child. And you second born. And your third born. And your...

At least with their SM Legion kits it fells more like I'm getting assured quality for my hard earned money, while with GW I really don't feel comfortable investing in their larger stuff.

Pricing is probably FWs only issue (along with the occasional miscast) but apprently other companies are worse about it.

Or so I'm told.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Keep in mind though. You pay a significant premium for all of this.

Simple comparisons

10 Cadians from GW 18 GBP (multipart kit)
10 Death Korp from FW 39 GBP (single pose)

That's not just a premium for the better service, though, it's also a premium for better sculpted models, in a better material for modelling (The polystyrene mix that GW uses is good for gaming because it bounces, but it's hell on fine detail - resin trades durability for better detail)


So to answer this question:

What would we do if GW suddenly doubled or their prices and approached the game side of the busniness like Forge World does.

Unless the quality of the kits increased to match Forgeworld's, I suspect we'd mostly jump ship.

As a side note, the 'multi part' nature of the Cadian kit ultimately doesn't do much for posability that can't be achieved with the regular Death Korps models. Because the arms only go together in specific combinations, and the torsos are all modelled facing full to the front, it just comes down to which way you turn the head and how elevated the arms are.

'Multipart' and 'posable' aren't always entirely the same thing.

They know what sells and what doesn't far better than most companies.

The continued presence on shelves of the limited edition version of the Hobbit starter set suggests that they still struggle with this somewhat...

As does the continual under-supply of large parts of each new release.

And, you know, Dreadfleet...

Each time the clerk at the store rings you in at a GW shop (at least mine), they ask your name, it's logged on 'your' account.

That might be a regional thing. I don't believe they do that here, although admittedly it's been a while since I bought anything from a GW store.

They would need to give me a damn good reason to expect me to give them any personal information to keep on file, though.

And if that isn't enough information for them, they can browse this forum for information.

From all reports, GW staff are actively discouraged from visiting forums. They don't consider them to be representative of their actual customer base.

So do they really need to come out and pay to do market research?

Their downward trend in their financials suggests that yes, it might be a good idea.

To me this all just seems like a different shade of political correctness veiled as sage wisdom. Now remember, don't legislate and limit players in any way, because that might get results, no, instead keep everything totally legal and just hope that getting offended and being really passive aggressive to strangers is embraced as a social norm. Don't regulate, educate, because demonstrating to strangers that fun is in fact not subjective in anyway is a far more enjoyable shared experience than a shared set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity. I mean rules, who needs'm. I'll stick with subjective values and simply inform other players when they're doing it wrong. Sarcasm face.

We can devise all sorts of new adjectives for armies and players, we can presume to know the intent and values of perfect strangers and be super judgemental or we could simply acknowledge that without basic limitations, one individuals fun is more likely to come at the expense of the others. This is a game that has only gotten more divisive as restrictions have been loosened.






Don't hate the player, hate the game. For serial.

 jonolikespie wrote:
GW released 7th as a quick cash grab, changing the rules for the sake of it.

Spartan Games, a week later, change there rules for the purpose of fixing them, streamlining them and balancing them.

Dyst wars 2.0 outsold 7th ed 7 to 1 at Australia's biggest FLGS (and probably biggest online store, I couldn't actually confirm that though). I really don't think changing rules for the sake of it is that good of a business plan. Maybe back before they had real competition but its not the 90s any more.

...but they didnt. What aCTUALLY happened is 6th Edition cost them ALMOST half the value of their stock vlaue and stockholders went berserk and demanded the rules get fixed so just one year into 6th, 7th Edition development started.

It wasnt as banal a reason as they were out to screw you. They were out to save investor confidence and to answer the obvious distress they unintentionally caused. Cynicism is fine, but dont let it override your reason. The rules needed repair, they repaired them and yeah, it was unfortunate.

I'm pretty certain investors aren't flipping through rulebooks for a war game to determine how many shares of stock to buy in the company.

No, but they are are looking for the revenue bump in the books that a new edition brings in. Having to borrow money to pay the dividends doesn't look as good.

 Jancoran wrote:


...but they didnt. What aCTUALLY happened is 6th Edition cost them ALMOST half the value of their stock vlaue and stockholders went berserk and demanded the rules get fixed so just one year into 6th, 7th Edition development started. .

A quick check of GW's share price movement over the last couple of years suggests that this story is not accurate. It was the January 2014 financial report that caused the share tumble. 7th Ed came out in May, so was already well and truly finished and either printed or at the printers by that point.