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 Hordini wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Was the choke hold though maintain for the entire time?

From the video, it looks like the hold was only maintained for a few seconds after he was taken to the ground, which is something I find puzzling. If someone dies from a choke, they usually die before you let go, not after (unless the windpipe is crushed, which doesn't seem to be the case as he is still breathing and talking after the officer lets go).

Choking like that caused an asthma attack and having several knees and hands on his back and head pushing him into the ground made it that much harder to breath. Like I said above it was ruled a homicide by two coroners

That makes it sound like it was caused more by his poor health than anything else, and it can be a homicide and still not be either murder or manslaughter.

But if the actions of an individual cause a chain reaction and death occurs that is at a minimum man slaughter

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Was the choke hold though maintain for the entire time?

From the video, it looks like the hold was only maintained for a few seconds after he was taken to the ground, which is something I find puzzling. If someone dies from a choke, they usually die before you let go, not after (unless the windpipe is crushed, which doesn't seem to be the case as he is still breathing and talking after the officer lets go).

Choking like that caused an asthma attack and having several knees and hands on his back and head pushing him into the ground made it that much harder to breath. Like I said above it was ruled a homicide by two coroners

That makes it sound like it was caused more by his poor health than anything else, and it can be a homicide and still not be either murder or manslaughter.

But if the actions of an individual cause a chain reaction and death occurs that is at a minimum man slaughter

That's not necessarily true.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Some things about this that I have problems with.

1. The city makes it illegal to distribute single cigarettes to people (tax issue of some sort).

2. Overreaction by police results in a man being killed by same police officers.

3. The concept of Wrongful Death is not part of the criminal code - it's civil, ala that lawsuit against O.J. Simpson after his acquittal.

4. Police are given a LOT of legal protections that are unavailable to you and I in situations where use of force results in a death.

You're missing step 1.5:

1.5 - Suspect who is much larger than both officers refuses to comply with the request to put his hands behind his back.

Larger as in fat, not larger as in linebacker for the Miami Dolphins. There is no way the police felt they were in any danger. They were simply dealing with an uncooperative person and overreacted in their attempt to force compliance to their orders. There's also blame to share with the paramedics who apparently didn't do their jobs correctly, either.

 Hordini wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Was the choke hold though maintain for the entire time?

From the video, it looks like the hold was only maintained for a few seconds after he was taken to the ground, which is something I find puzzling. If someone dies from a choke, they usually die before you let go, not after (unless the windpipe is crushed, which doesn't seem to be the case as he is still breathing and talking after the officer lets go).

Choking like that caused an asthma attack and having several knees and hands on his back and head pushing him into the ground made it that much harder to breath. Like I said above it was ruled a homicide by two coroners

That makes it sound like it was caused more by his poor health than anything else, and it can be a homicide and still not be either murder or manslaughter.

But if the actions of an individual cause a chain reaction and death occurs that is at a minimum man slaughter

That's not necessarily true.

If the cop had not done the actions that he did, the individual would still be alive, because of his actions someone died. That is the literal definition of manslaughter.

What peregrine said.

 Ustrello wrote:


If the cop had not done the actions that he did, the individual would still be alive, because of his actions someone died. That is the literal definition of manslaughter.

If Garner hadn't resisted arrest he'd still be alive.

Regardless, I was surprised that they couldn't indict for a manslaughter charge, which I think they probably should have.

Breotan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Some things about this that I have problems with.

1. The city makes it illegal to distribute single cigarettes to people (tax issue of some sort).

2. Overreaction by police results in a man being killed by same police officers.

3. The concept of Wrongful Death is not part of the criminal code - it's civil, ala that lawsuit against O.J. Simpson after his acquittal.

4. Police are given a LOT of legal protections that are unavailable to you and I in situations where use of force results in a death.

You're missing step 1.5:

1.5 - Suspect who is much larger than both officers refuses to comply with the request to put his hands behind his back.

Larger as in fat, not larger as in linebacker for the Miami Dolphins. There is no way the police felt they were in any danger. They were simply dealing with an uncooperative person and overreacted in their attempt to force compliance to their orders. There's also blame to share with the paramedics who apparently didn't do their jobs correctly, either.

The paramedics failing to help him in a timely manner bothers me much more than the takedown, to be honest (and I'm not saying the takedown was appropriately handled either.)

Ustrello wrote:If the cop had not done the actions that he did, the individual would still be alive, because of his actions someone died. That is the literal definition of manslaughter.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but no, it's not.

 Hordini wrote:

Breotan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Some things about this that I have problems with.

1. The city makes it illegal to distribute single cigarettes to people (tax issue of some sort).

2. Overreaction by police results in a man being killed by same police officers.

3. The concept of Wrongful Death is not part of the criminal code - it's civil, ala that lawsuit against O.J. Simpson after his acquittal.

4. Police are given a LOT of legal protections that are unavailable to you and I in situations where use of force results in a death.

You're missing step 1.5:

1.5 - Suspect who is much larger than both officers refuses to comply with the request to put his hands behind his back.

Larger as in fat, not larger as in linebacker for the Miami Dolphins. There is no way the police felt they were in any danger. They were simply dealing with an uncooperative person and overreacted in their attempt to force compliance to their orders. There's also blame to share with the paramedics who apparently didn't do their jobs correctly, either.

The paramedics failing to help him in a timely manner bothers me much more than the takedown, to be honest (and I'm not saying the takedown was appropriately handled either.)

Ustrello wrote:If the cop had not done the actions that he did, the individual would still be alive, because of his actions someone died. That is the literal definition of manslaughter.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but no, it's not.

Thinking Negligent Homicide

 Jihadin wrote:
Thinking Negligent Homicide

At best it's Criminally Negligent Manslaughter, by definition.

The problem is that I can see how a Grand Jury could justify that the LEO was subduing a resisting criminal, and as such was doing his job, despite the fact that the headlock was against policy in that particular PD.

Eh... here are the issues I'd like to see discussed:

The use of excessive force by police: This is something which may be addressed by the insistence that law enforcement be required to wear body cameras at all times, which I believe it's a measure which New York City is beginning to implement. That doesn't mean it'll actually prevent excessive force, but it'll damn well expose any such event.

The state-level reformation of the grand jury process: The fact that a grand jury could not find probable cause to go to trial when an 'against-policy' hold resulted in a homicide, but could find sufficient evidence to indict the person who filmed this incident (on a gun charge) shouldn’t sit well with anyone. That is a problem imo.

Contraband laws and the criminalization of the nonviolent: There is no reason why a person should be subject to arrest for selling loose cigarettes when that same person would only be subject to a ticket for carrying up to two ounces of marijuana. I mean, seriously... WTF New York!?!?

How this didn't result in an indictment is mind-blowing - videotape of the police restraining a man in the way the department has banned for over 2 decades because it can cause injury, the coroner ruled it a homicide and that cause of death was compression of the neck, and yet no crime was omitted? Mind blown.

I mean jesus, we're not even really pretending that there's the rule of law anymore.

 Ouze wrote:
How this didn't result in an indictment is mind-blowing - videotape of the police restraining a man in the way the department has banned for over 2 decades because it can cause injury, the coroner ruled it a homicide and that cause of death was compression of the neck, and yet no crime was omitted? Mind blown.

I mean jesus, we're not even really pretending that there's the rule of law anymore.

Patrolmens "benevolent" association union too strong

 Ouze wrote:
How this didn't result in an indictment is mind-blowing - videotape of the police restraining a man in the way the department has banned for over 2 decades because it can cause injury, the coroner ruled it a homicide and that cause of death was compression of the neck, and yet no crime was omitted? Mind blown..

Agreed... I seriously want to see the Grand Jury report to see if we can extrapolate why they refused to indict.

I mean jesus, we're not even really pretending that there's the rule of law anymore.

** I just can't resist

My first thought of the video: the guy who put the chokehold: wait thats a cop? Seriously?

mmm I can't figure this out..... he died because of a chokehold? but It doesn't say he died from asfication.... so how did he murder him? I mean like he died because of poor health and a asima"or how ever you spell it" attack. I mean I get that the cops where the ones who caused it but how can the blame the guy who did the choke hold when the man died later in the hospital when the effects from the hold would be gone but the thing that seems to have killed him was brough on by all cops.

This remind me of that case here in Canada where the guy was aggressive to cops and was hit by a tazer and died do to a bad heart. I guess all I can say is if you have a bad heart or health be very mmmm lawful?

Also whats up with this stuff lately, I hear them say we are told different we are told to respect the cops and do what we are told and calmy even if we didn't do anything wrong just cause we are black.
I don't know about you guys but I was taught that at age 3+ and they came to our school telling us they have a stressful job and the more aggressive we act the more aggressive they need to counter react cause they can't back down but we can. Is this like a American thing?

This shows a clear message to the rabble, respect our authority!

This happens when you oppose the NKVD! oh wait this is the land of the free.

Other physical factors of Garner himself and the multiple LEO that were on him contribute to his death

OgreChubbs wrote:
mmm I can't figure this out..... he died because of a chokehold? but It doesn't say he died from asfication....

Well, you have to make a minimal effort to educate yourself. Like googling, and click the very first result for "eric garner cause of death".

super simple stuff

OgreChubbs wrote:
he died because of a chokehold? but It doesn't say he died from asfication.... so how

No asesinada con asficaia, hermano. Asecia con el estárter sostiene. Hay una diferencia, aparentemente.

(making fun of your misspelling of asphyxiation)

I haven't been following this...so what the heck is this about charging tax on loose cigarettes? Weren't they already taxed when purchased as a pack/carton? And, in NY, taxed heavily, too...like what?...$7-$8 bucks per pack? I hope there is some hidden kernel of sense in this law, because now a man has died through its' strong armed enforcement.

What next? Illegal 32 ounce Big Gulps??? Cray-cray...

Rusty Trombone wrote:
I haven't been following this...so what the heck is this about charging tax on loose cigarettes? Weren't they already taxed when purchased as a pack/carton? And, in NY, taxed heavily, too...like what?...$7-$8 bucks per pack? I hope there is some hidden kernel of sense in this law, because now a man has died through its' strong armed enforcement.

What next? Illegal 32 ounce Big Gulps??? Cray-cray...

No I believe it is illegal to sell loose cigs in NY

 whembly wrote:

I was taught that this is a choke hold:

Spoiler:

That is not a choke hold. It isn't even a hold.

 whembly wrote:

This is a head lock:

Spoiler:

Again... it's just a pet peeve.

No, that is a choke hold. Whoever taught you that its a headlock is an idiot who almost certainly learned his "craft" from professional wrestlers.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

Breotan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Some things about this that I have problems with.

1. The city makes it illegal to distribute single cigarettes to people (tax issue of some sort).

2. Overreaction by police results in a man being killed by same police officers.

3. The concept of Wrongful Death is not part of the criminal code - it's civil, ala that lawsuit against O.J. Simpson after his acquittal.

4. Police are given a LOT of legal protections that are unavailable to you and I in situations where use of force results in a death.

You're missing step 1.5:

1.5 - Suspect who is much larger than both officers refuses to comply with the request to put his hands behind his back.

Larger as in fat, not larger as in linebacker for the Miami Dolphins. There is no way the police felt they were in any danger. They were simply dealing with an uncooperative person and overreacted in their attempt to force compliance to their orders. There's also blame to share with the paramedics who apparently didn't do their jobs correctly, either.

The paramedics failing to help him in a timely manner bothers me much more than the takedown, to be honest (and I'm not saying the takedown was appropriately handled either.)

Ustrello wrote:If the cop had not done the actions that he did, the individual would still be alive, because of his actions someone died. That is the literal definition of manslaughter.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but no, it's not.

You can facepalm all you want, that doesn't make your definition of manslaughter correct. The definition can vary based on jurisdiction. What you're describing sounds more like homicide (one person killing another), which can include both murder and manslaughter, but doesn't have to be either.

This has been keystone cops from start to finish.

In the other high profile cases (the kid with the gun, and Michael Brown) you could give the cop the benefit of the doubt, as that toy gun looked pretty real, and Michael Brown tried to take the other cop's gun from him in that particular incident.

But this...

A man dies over the sake of a few cigarettes and the police walk free.

What does a cop have to do to get jail time in the USA?

The only reason I'm not sounding off, is because UK police are equally as bad, equally as negligent, and equally walk away with impunity.

OgreChubbs wrote:
mmm I can't figure this out..... he died because of a chokehold? but It doesn't say he died from asfication.... so how did he murder him? I mean like he died because of poor health and a asima"or how ever you spell it" attack. I mean I get that the cops where the ones who caused it but how can the blame the guy who did the choke hold when the man died later in the hospital when the effects from the hold would be gone but the thing that seems to have killed him was brough on by all cops.

He died because of a combination of the actions of the police and his health. The police action was against protocol, excessive for the situation and contributory to the death. If the officer had acted appropriately then this would never have happend.

OgreChubbs wrote:

I don't know about you guys but I was taught that at age 3+ and they came to our school telling us they have a stressful job and the more aggressive we act the more aggressive they need to counter react cause they can't back down but we can. Is this like a American thing?

That is, unfortunately, the attitude of many cops in some areas, and the attitude that causes incidents like this. The idea that to counter aggression you need to be more aggressive until someone backs down. Thats simply not true. These cops need to learn to be assertive, not aggressive. It is quite possible to be assertive, deescalate a situation, and resolve the problem, without backing down. Aggression, especially in a case like this, just escalates the situation. Sometimes overwhelming force, or agression is needed, but in most cases being assertive rather than aggressive is a far better way to calm the situation and get what you want. Basic negotiation skills.

I was under the impression that it was not compression of the neck that killed him but compression of the chest. After being forced to the ground the choke hold was released, the officers on top of the individuals torso is what caused him to stop breathing. The officers were on top of the individual to hold him down as he was uncooperative.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/waiting-eric-garner-grand-jury

In anticipation of the grand-jury announcement, the New York Police Department has started preparing for large-scale protests. As police commissioner William Bratton told the press, “We have the ability to have a level of tolerance—breathing room, if you will.”

And, as far as I can tell, this isn't a spoof.

Unfortunate phrasing or master-level trolling? We'll never know for sure.

Trying to figure out why this one didn't go to charges.

Any argument to resisting arrest ends shortly after this guy is surrounded.

I don't see a racism angle. I see bad policing to the level of criminality.