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There are now rumours 40k could be getting its own End Times, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that prior to the end year report. Though didn't we have Knights this time last year?

Just rumors, and already disproven.

 Psienesis wrote:

There are now rumours 40k could be getting its own End Times, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that prior to the end year report. Though didn't we have Knights this time last year?

Just rumors, and already disproven.

Got links? I'd love to know more.

Yeah, from something Graham McNeill emailed me this morning when I asked him about it (or, at least, whoever answers his email on his blog):

Graham McNeill <site@graham-mcneill.com>
11:05 PM (16 hours ago)

to me
I refer you to this…

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

And would ask you to pass it on to anyone else who thinks the sky is falling :-)

Cheers,

Graham

Interesting.

Thanks. I read some stuff on reddit and couldn't track down if it was real or not, or just idle speculation.

I love playing warhammer 40k, the setting, the armies, if I could be playing right this moment I would be playing a 5th edition game with my friends. Unfortunately that is not so, my friends stopped playing, refuse to play games and have moved on. They briefly moved into WM/H and I followed suit, trading off an army to get models, yet after 2 games in one day, no more games appeared, I like the hobby but my friends are inconsistant, nearly bipolar in their likes. One day it was a card game, i bought into it and researched which deck i liked, I started winning and they dropped it. I cannot be a winner, or I lose.

Friends aside, why dont I play at a flgs, because most of the players I met are annoying, powergaming mommy bought me this deck 20 somethings who loudly express their delight in my losing. No, its not a simple thing to ask me why I stopped playing, because it wasnt one thing.

It was everything the fans did.


Sure its expensive, but I didnt mind buying secondhand.
Sure GW makes weird decisions, but I still like the games.
When my friends quit, I was ok with it, their decision after all.

No, what does it for me, is the playerbase....
Grown ass men bitching about my blue orcs, and my green tau.
Guys bringing extra rulebooks with FAQs and updates for anything I do
The fanbase is poisoned, for every chilled out player we have 4 spam tweakers with massive blocks of cheese. The countless hours spent in combat with absolute idiots that can only play an army after having it professionally painted. The sheer outrage of watching a player be coached during a tournament. No feth the fanbase. Maybe GW will change the rules once people stop buying only the most important, expensive, and good units that other players told them to buy. Balance and strategy are thrown out the window by fans who think strategy is running 6 wave serpents and riptides or 3 fateweavers and 100 pink horrors

So what got me out of 40k...watching the fans ruin it

Sounds like those players would ruin anything.

Sorry to hear that.

the balance of the game made me quit and poor rule writing. Also the feeling of being a walking wallet to a company that does not care about its community just is not good business. I rather spend my money on companies that keep open lines of communication with its customers.

Holy balls, I just went through and did the math on what it'd cost to buy the rules for everything.

Assuming you wanted hardcopies of as much as is possible and digitals of everything else, you're looking at ~$1900 (If you go all digital, it's less, I think on the order of $1400) for all the codex books, supplements, core rules, dataslates, stronghold assault and escalation, campaign sets (since they have formations useable in normal games), etc but not counting Apocalypse books, Imperial Armour, or expansions like Planetstrike/Death from the Skies/Kill Teams or White Dwarf sub for when they randomly toss stuff in there. Once you add the Apocalypse/Imperial Armour/Expansion/WD/etc stuff in it's about ~$3000.

To think back to 4th edition or when it was $20/codex and $50/BRB, you could get all the "core" stuff for under $400 (and it'd all fit in a backpack without breaking your spine), maybe a little under $800 with the Imperial Armour books and extra expansions like Cities of Death and Apocalypse and White Dwarf added in on top.

There's just too much stuff priced way too high and spread over way too many sources for the overwhelmingly vast majority of players to keep up with all this stuff anymore.

That's certainly a barrier to both entry and continued play.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the next financial report will give us a good idea if 7th was good enough to pull them back out of last year's revenue drop.

IMO it won't be the next one that shows the real situation, since there will be a spike of sales from the 7th edition rulebook. Even people who don't buy much else will buy a new core rulebook so they can keep playing, and I bet a lot of people bought the rules and didn't quit until realizing how bad 7th was. I think the report after the next one is going to be the real test: can GW survive on "normal" sales, or have they lost so many customers that any year that doesn't include a new edition is a failure? Plus there's the WHFB issue, where the "end times" books seem to be popular and might offset some of the weakness in 40k.

So what you're saying is that GW cannot post positive sales number without it being a "fluke". Got it. However if they post negative sales numbers that's spot on. Is this a correct assumption from your post? If I misread it I apologize.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Holy balls, I just went through and did the math on what it'd cost to buy the rules for everything.

Assuming you wanted hardcopies of as much as is possible and digitals of everything else, you're looking at ~$1900 (If you go all digital, it's less, I think on the order of $1400) for all the codex books, supplements, core rules, dataslates, stronghold assault and escalation, campaign sets (since they have formations useable in normal games), etc but not counting Apocalypse books, Imperial Armour, or expansions like Planetstrike/Death from the Skies/Kill Teams or White Dwarf sub for when they randomly toss stuff in there. Once you add the Apocalypse/Imperial Armour/Expansion/WD/etc stuff in it's about ~$3000.

To think back to 4th edition or when it was $20/codex and $50/BRB, you could get all the "core" stuff for under $400 (and it'd all fit in a backpack without breaking your spine), maybe a little under $800 with the Imperial Armour books and extra expansions like Cities of Death and Apocalypse and White Dwarf added in on top.

There's just too much stuff priced way too high and spread over way too many sources for the overwhelmingly vast majority of players to keep up with all this stuff anymore.

That's certainly a barrier to both entry and continued play.

Eh to be fair you don't really need everything. Though I do miss being able to just grab a codex I'm interested in for a reasonable price.

That said I can't say I think the codex prices are well set, page for page my University books are cheaper then a codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the next financial report will give us a good idea if 7th was good enough to pull them back out of last year's revenue drop.

IMO it won't be the next one that shows the real situation, since there will be a spike of sales from the 7th edition rulebook. Even people who don't buy much else will buy a new core rulebook so they can keep playing, and I bet a lot of people bought the rules and didn't quit until realizing how bad 7th was. I think the report after the next one is going to be the real test: can GW survive on "normal" sales, or have they lost so many customers that any year that doesn't include a new edition is a failure? Plus there's the WHFB issue, where the "end times" books seem to be popular and might offset some of the weakness in 40k.

I dunno... what do you consider "normal" sales for GW? GW do pack the releases in, so I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "normal" year. This year they've had end times and 7th (the rulebook itself was actually released last financial year though). Last financial year they had IK and SM. I'm sure if you go back over the years they usually squeeze something big in, if it's not a new edition for either WHFB or 40k it's a campaign or popular codex/army book.

 lobbywatson wrote:
So what you're saying is that GW cannot post positive sales number without it being a "fluke". Got it. However if they post negative sales numbers that's spot on. Is this a correct assumption from your post? If I misread it I apologize.

No, you completely misread it. The issue isn't whether the numbers were positive or negative, it's WHY those numbers were positive or negative. Is it a genuine improvement, or is it a one-time spike of people having to get the new rulebook all at once? If it's the second case then that isn't sustainable growth, once it's over you're back to the general trend (which seems to be decline at this point). Similarly, a hypothetical drop in sales might not be very significant if there is a reasonable argument that it was due to temporary circumstances and not long-term decline. But the hypothetical temporary drop isn't relevant to the current discussion.

And the reason for being skeptical about growth is that the trend of GW's sales numbers has been flat to declining for years now. So if we suddenly see a reversal of this trend we should be reluctant to say "GW is back" until GW shows sustained improvement that points to long-term success instead of short-term attempts to fix the financial report and keep the shareholders happy a bit longer.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I dunno... what do you consider "normal" sales for GW?

A year without a new edition, like we've seen before 7th edition. Sure, each year usually had at least one thing that would be popular, but that's not the same thing as getting everyone to buy the new thing. So in previous years we saw that GW could have sustained sales based on the "normal" sequence of army releases combined with people buying stuff outside of the new releases. A new edition was obviously good, but GW didn't depend on it to keep the sales numbers reasonable.

As for the pace of recent releases, yeah, that's the thing that concerns me. GW has got to be making a lot of money off updating so many armies within a single financial year, but they're very quickly burning through their available future releases. If 2015 has 8th edition and a new codex for every army followed by 9th edition in 2016 it will probably kill the game, and GW has to be aware of that. So even if 2014 has decent numbers we still have to ask how the numbers are going to look in 2014 when they can't make as much money off rulebook updates.

Peregrine makes a good point. I think the fact that they released 7th so quickly after 6th shows how desperate they are. I believe this breakneck release pace is an effort to artificially prop the numbers up if you will. Even if their numbers in the next financial report are flat or show a slight increase it's still a bad sign for the future of the company. Considering the pricing, release pace, etc their revenue should show a considerable spike. If it's just a slight boost in revenue, it won't be sustainable without releasing more new editions and codexes at even faster pace, which will alienate even more customers and further threaten the long term stability of the company. At some point GW is going to have to figure out how to generate susustainable growth and keep their customer base happy. They can't keep relying on band aids like a half assed, rushed rule book to prop up their revenue.

I don't really think GW will gain a lot of the 7th edition sales for this financial year. It was actually released last year anyway and I think a lot of people just didn't buy it, waiting for the mini rulebooks to go up on ebay or just pirated the ebook version to see what had changed.

I also tend to think if GW are truly going down the tube (I never like making such predictions, but IF they are) then I don't think they will have another "normal" year of sales. They're just going to keep releasing things, expanding on things, new supplements, expanding the universe and so on until people get bored of it and they go down.

A lot of people say they hope GW goes down so someone else picks up 40k... however I predict that long before GW go down they will have well and truly killed 40k with excessive expansions and cash grabs.

They only need to hang on until kirby retires (i'm predicting 2017-2018ish), then its "someone elses" problem. I'm just hoping they don't totally destroy the prospects of recovery between now and then.

That new epic armageddon game will give them a bump in this year's annual report, but given the nature of the game i doubt it will be a substantial one. But yeah, as the allseeingskink says, it'll be flood the market with releases until something happens, just like TSR did.

I haven't quit yet..

I got back into 40k 18 months ago together with some friends, after playing some wmh now and then.
I still like the models, the 40k universe and converting/painting, but the playing is just getting more and more unbalanced and egen in my group of friendly gamers people take it tio seriously, complaining about all new releases, or their own codex which often is worse than any other

And Rhen gw just spams different imperial knights, the newer the codex the more broken the rules, just to get
People to buy the best and expensive stuff.

Even my friends, who claim to play friendly whine about battles löst, bring the worst list possible, writes in our facebook group ~50 times a day, and are really really worried as bout nw releases, base sizes etc.

Its getting too much for me, its just a casual game, and not even that fun anymore. I will continue the painting AMD stuff, maybe play some low point games with a friend but thats it.

Sorry about the language, my tablet has some annoying swedish autospelling

I stop playing because of the cheating abuse rules at all cost waac players that are very commone. like people change digital codexs to fit ther needs when people changs knights to 150a model so the can field more was the last straw. I play just with my brother as he the only one who has same goals in play then other gamers

 Peregrine wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
So what you're saying is that GW cannot post positive sales number without it being a "fluke". Got it. However if they post negative sales numbers that's spot on. Is this a correct assumption from your post? If I misread it I apologize.

No, you completely misread it. The issue isn't whether the numbers were positive or negative, it's WHY those numbers were positive or negative. Is it a genuine improvement, or is it a one-time spike of people having to get the new rulebook all at once? If it's the second case then that isn't sustainable growth, once it's over you're back to the general trend (which seems to be decline at this point). Similarly, a hypothetical drop in sales might not be very significant if there is a reasonable argument that it was due to temporary circumstances and not long-term decline. But the hypothetical temporary drop isn't relevant to the current discussion.

And the reason for being skeptical about growth is that the trend of GW's sales numbers has been flat to declining for years now. So if we suddenly see a reversal of this trend we should be reluctant to say "GW is back" until GW shows sustained improvement that points to long-term success instead of short-term attempts to fix the financial report and keep the shareholders happy a bit longer.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I dunno... what do you consider "normal" sales for GW?

A year without a new edition, like we've seen before 7th edition. Sure, each year usually had at least one thing that would be popular, but that's not the same thing as getting everyone to buy the new thing. So in previous years we saw that GW could have sustained sales based on the "normal" sequence of army releases combined with people buying stuff outside of the new releases. A new edition was obviously good, but GW didn't depend on it to keep the sales numbers reasonable.

As for the pace of recent releases, yeah, that's the thing that concerns me. GW has got to be making a lot of money off updating so many armies within a single financial year, but they're very quickly burning through their available future releases. If 2015 has 8th edition and a new codex for every army followed by 9th edition in 2016 it will probably kill the game, and GW has to be aware of that. So even if 2014 has decent numbers we still have to ask how the numbers are going to look in 2014 when they can't make as much money off rulebook updates.

That's actually a reasonable well thought out response and clarification. I commend you for not just making up crap.

Actually, we don't know the plans of GW for 2015 and 2016.
One option would be to keep up the pace for releasing eighth edition and beginning to rerelease all codices.
But then they would eventually loose more and more customers.
I hope they find other ways to generate money.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, we don't know the plans of GW for 2015 and 2016.
One option would be to keep up the pace for releasing eighth edition and beginning to rerelease all codices.
But then they would eventually loose more and more customers.
I hope they find other ways to generate money.

I've got my money on them expanding more rather than just rereleasing stuff.

i quit when one of the three opponents and good friend of mine (Joel) while in University decided he had better things to do with his time than hang out with us. I got tired of playing vs only two guys and while not upset at all with my buddy about not playing warhammer when hes busy, i havnt spoken to Joel in 8 years now, eventually i just got tired of going out of my way to include him in something and him make zero effort to get together with us.

I just came back maybe 8 months ago at our local store, seems like a bunch of good guys there.

I think it comes as no surprise That "we dont like the new editions and rules" has gotten the most votes..

The Fact that prices are comming in on third place shows that this is not the main Issue people have with GW, it has to do with the Rules, and that "we dont like how they treat us", and that also reflects, that the players feel they are getting screwed over somehow (probably by the rules)...

The Number one thing is that RULES make and break games.. And as GW has stated they do not "do market reserch", so they think they are a miniature company first and a gaming company second(if they even think they are a gaming company, I have my doubts about that)..

I haven't stopped playing ,but I've stopped collecting, and it's because of moneh.

Would love to get back to it. still follow it but too expensive to play when you live on your own....

Mainly social anxiety for me, applying to all the TT games I play, not just 40k. Other things made it easier to stop doing it, but weren't the driving force behind my stopping.

I still enjoy the fluff, but the game itself isn't doing it for me anymore. GW's arrogance has annoyed me, too. They're a shell of what they once were, with most (if not all) of the people who made them great gone.

I'll admit that the models have increased in quality (generally, some of the new stuff is horrid in design/premise, though) but the costs are a turn off too. Not because I can't afford them, but because I don't see value in them anymore.

Like many I've moved on to greener pastures, games run by companies with a clue about what they're doing and, moreover, an actual interest in their own products. Their models may not quite be up to GW's standard yet, but their rules, business sense and customer relations are lightyears ahead.

Funny, I help design systems for doing things in an organization.
I read many comments that some players felt driven out by bad behavior of players.

Some elements of a gaming system should reward behavior we want and punish for behavior we do not.
The system seems to reward playing netlists and "broken" combinations, there is an unevenness in army selection.

The system is flawed and creates flawed behavior more so than just a natural leaning.

I have "stopped" playing in place of other games but am still willing to play 40k, there is just less motivation and opportunity now.