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So what do you guys think, since Warhammer fantasy got "the end times " which pepped things up, about updating Warhammer 40k ? Because, yeah the good ol' grimdark universe is very well made, but could it be better ? Or should GW leave it like that ? Or is the universe so big that everything could happen and nobody cares about " canon lore " ?

READY ? DISCUSS ! I am hidding in my anti bunker

I always think about it as if game time is proceeding according to real time, i.e. for every day in the real world a day passes in the game world.

Moving the narrative forward would be unsettling.

I really like the Grimdark universe. I think they could totally do an "Apocalypse" version, something like the End Times, either in the way of a mass Tyranid army or a large Chaos warpstorm.
I also like the universe because its so large that gak can happen, yet it doesn't affect the overall arc because you can say "Oh, thats just on that one planet."

I also like the universe because its so large that gak can happen, yet it doesn't affect the overall arc because you can say "Oh, thats just on that one planet."

This. Exactly. People tend to take 40k like it's all or nothing (which it IS in Fantasy because Fantasy happens on only one planet), but in 40k we have the luxury of doing something equally "big" as "The End Times", but GW wouldn't have to worry about damaging the over-all story line.

I would love to see some kind of "End Times" style campaign set in some far flung corner of the universe. It could represent a tendril of one of the Hive Fleets over-coming a major obstacle, or the birth of a new "Eye of Terror" or something like that. They could then use that as a way to add new fluff and stories into the universe without actually having to break up their existing story lines (since it appears they are loathe to do so anyway).

I think that when (or if) they ever finish heresy we may get some minor progress of some kind.

Why does it matter if they do reach the end, there's nothing stopping anyone fighting a battle or skirmish from any point in the made up history.

Historical gaming can re-fight major battles and even have Napoleon win at Waterloo, the story reached the end, but still gets gamed, so why can't a fantasy or Sci-Fi story do the same?

gilamonster wrote:
I think that when (or if) they ever finish heresy we may get some minor progress of some kind.

Or more likely and more interestingly, an Age of Apostasy set up.

What would expect the End Times to be?

The way the setting is written, if there is a galaxy-wide End Times scenario... Humanity loses.

Anyone at the recent weekender?
Can anyone confirm if this is actually a thing?
http://nblo.gs/11OrFx

Seems rumor at this point, especially because I don't believe Graham McNeill is currently employed as a designer by GW, he writes novels for BL.

It is possible to have storyline progression without End Times and end of the setting upheaval changes. It is an error to equate one necessarily with the other. Storyline progression happened steadily throughout the 1990's. Although the larger status quo remained largely unchanged, what did change were individual storylines and smaller campaign settings, and some of this previous change is taken for granted today. Some details of the background progressed and did not spring up out of nothing.

Ghaz and Yarrick are where they are today as a result of progression, through the 2nd War of Armageddon through to Yarrick being captured on Golgotha (the result of an Epic battle report), and on to the 3rd War of Armageddon. Similarly, Tycho went from a generic Blood Angel captain, to gaining a name and mask as a result of being hit by a Weirdboy psychic power in a battle report, and then onwards to his embittered self and finding of inner peace in death in the 3rd War of Armageddon.

GW could easily make smaller scale campaigns and have those progress, perhaps even by player determination, without overthrowing the larger status quo. Even the older Eye of Terror results can be incorporated without really breaking the setting, as Abaddon breaking out from the Gate does not immediately mean he reaches Terra (or even ever gets there if the Imperium sacrifices other areas to reinforce against him).

More recently with the Eldar and Duriel/Valedor, we seem to be seeing a hint of new threads of possible storyline fleshing out. The problem is with the time being stuck permanently so far at 999.M41, there is no room for that. Duriel took place exactly 220 standard Imperial days before the "current" end of 999.M41 so any further expansion of background on this is extremely limited. For example, the new Black Library short story Wraithflight by Guy Haley seems to take place after Duriel and the employment of similar devices by the Eldar, meaning there is only 187 days of time for the story, assuming everything were to be crammed into the last remaining days of 999.M41.

I'd like to see mortal threats added against the Nids and Crons. Having factions with no weaknesses and no chance of really being eliminated is boring. Suggestions

Chaos Marines and the Dark Mechanicus recognize the huge threat Necrons pose to chaos and unleash new scrap code variants into slumbering tombworlds, destroying hundreds of dynasties and causing the others to awaken faster.

It becomes clear that the gestalt of the hive mind is partially generated by each of the norn queens. As more of them die, the hive mind becomes weaker, and the swarm less controllable and more feral.

I feel like when only one player on the table has anything really narratively at stake the game is far less interesting and enjoyable.

I'd also like to see the CWE start resorting to more extreme methods to survive, like cloning and DE style resurrection.

Time, the Flayer Virus and the Eldar are mortal threats to the Necrons. Chaos, too.

 Psienesis wrote:
Time, the Flayer Virus and the Eldar are mortal threats to the Necrons. Chaos, too.

I would love to see more expanded on the Flayer virus. How are the Eldar much of a threat? There doesn't seem to be much of em left, left alone to single out the Necrons

The Eldar are the oldest foes of the Necrons, and have warred with them throughout history. They have also managed to isolate the Flayer virus, and are known to infiltrate and infect Tombs with it.

The Necrons and Tyranids are already the perfect foils for each other. The Necrons have the technology to make a dent in the vast numbers of the Tyranids, but are held back by their disunity, erratic awakening, and the intervention of other races like the Eldar with their spreading of the Flayer Virus (as documented in the Necron Codex) which reduces Necrons to being feral techno-ghouls. The Tyranids in turn have their numbers, adaptability, and their use of psychic powers via the Hive Mind. Already they have been shown overwhelming isolated or dormant Necron tomb worlds (again as per the Necron Codex) so we know the Tyranids have the capability of meeting and even defeating the Necrons in battle. Again the Eldar are the wildcard with their use of psychic weapons of mass destruction like the Fireheart on Duriel or its replicas on other worlds.

Like with diverting the Orks onto Armageddon, the Eldar should be shown as nudging the other races and behemoths of the galaxy to fight each other instead of the Eldar directly. However even so their desperation can be seen by their willingness to use up these weapons of mass destruction, which are often irreplaceable relics of their old empire. I do not think the Craftworld Eldar should be shown resorting to Dark Eldar means of bolstering their population, because the Craftworlds are fighting for their way of life, and mass pumping out of babies does not appear compatible with the Eldar Path system, with its focus on personal development and individual quality of life.

That is a good point, I feel like the Eldar don't really have any motivation to fight on the table top, it's like no matter what they are boned unless the Rana Dandra thing goes through and that doesn't have anything to do with whats happening on the table top.

And I get your point, but the necromancy of the wraith constructs is a much bigger cultural taboo than cloning some more foot soldiers.

 Silverthorne wrote:
That is a good point, I feel like the Eldar don't really have any motivation to fight on the table top, it's like no matter what they are boned unless the Rana Dandra thing goes through and that doesn't have anything to do with whats happening on the table top.

And I get your point, but the necromancy of the wraith constructs is a much bigger cultural taboo than cloning some more foot soldiers.

Not sure about that taboo ranking. I could make the argument that the fact they use wraith constructs but don't pump out babies could be interpreted to mean it is even more taboo than using your dead as soldiers again.

With the Duriel/Valedor storyline, it seems GW are giving the Eldar an inkling of hope. Yriel was shown a vision by a Shadowseer of their gods being resurrected, while Iyanna is on her quest to awaken Ynnead (possibly prematurely). Of course, the Biel-tan Autarch also mused when looking at Duriel whether it was truly victory and hope, or the last flaring of a dying race. Either way, it presents the Eldar as more of a threat and ancient eldritch race that still has some power to make a difference in the grand scheme, rather than as just the punching bags that GW would use in recent years to show how good a faction was.

13th crusade, hive fleet leviathan, necron reawakening. The entire 40k fluff is already at 'end times'. Any closer to midnight and it'll be tomorrow already.

What if

It would make for a very interesting fluff change, to say the least. Unfortunately, it could change the fluff to the point where GW would never do it. Still, there's always a chance...

 Silverthorne wrote:
That is a good point, I feel like the Eldar don't really have any motivation to fight on the table top, it's like no matter what they are boned unless the Rana Dandra thing goes through and that doesn't have anything to do with whats happening on the table top.

If the Eldar are on the tabletop, it's because something has gone wrong, 9 times out of 10.

let me see.
my biggest problem is that they (GW) accelerated the timeline just a bit too much (considering that there are entries of M41.999). unless they (GW) want to rebrand the game as 50k, I son't see what they are going to do.


Then there are the inconsistencies with the races. For instance, the Tau are supposed to have shorter lifespans than humans, but their soldier castes can serve as commanders for 50-60 years?!? There is fluff justification, where the legendary commanders are placed in stasis and decanted in times of great need (which IMHO isn't unreasonable to do if we can figure out the technology) but do they do so with the entirety of the caste?

Then there are the manipulators. A farseer or a Tzeentch HQ should never be on the field. If they are, then they failed. The Necron strategy actually makes sense in that regard,

 carldooley wrote:
let me see.
my biggest problem is that they (GW) accelerated the timeline just a bit too much (considering that there are entries of M41.999). unless they (GW) want to rebrand the game as 50k, I son't see what they are going to do.

Just roll over the date and keep the brand name as 40K. 20th Century Fox didn't suddenly have a naming crisis when it rolled over into the current century and still exists as 20th Century Fox.

The rumour mill actually claims we're going to get a 40k End Times arc soon.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-bombshell-end-times-coming.html

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The rumour mill actually claims we're going to get a 40k End Times arc soon.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-bombshell-end-times-coming.html

Apparently not.

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

And even that says he toyed with the idea of a non-literal return of Guilliman, not the literal return that people seem to be fantasizing about.

I am not in favor of any loyalist Primarchs returning because it would upend the Imperium's very structure, and I am not for such ham handed ways of wrecking a setting, though I am in favor of gradualist storyline progression. Think about the Imperium, which is basically a theocracy based around a remote God-Emperor whose will is unknown and left in the hands of mortals to interpret. In this kind of theological construct, paralleled on the medieval Church, the Emperor is God, and the Primarchs are like the Archangels or saints. Imagine the theological and political uproar if one came back and said "You're doing it all wrong. I know because I spoke to God directly before". That is the kind of problem that a loyalist Primarch poses to the setting, and that is before we run the risk of it turning into a simplistic "good Primarch" vs. "evil High Lords".

I much prefer the conception of the Imperium, and the High Lords, not being black hatted villains cackling and doing evil for the sake of evil or personal venal corruption. The High Lords are often criticized by Imperial viewpoints or players as being corrupt or remote, but the very nature, size, and structure of the current Imperium precludes any form of real direct control or reform. I like to think of the High Lords as perhaps well meaning or jaded political figures that do the best with the hand their given. The Imperium is like a great ship on autopilot headed for the iceberg, resisting all attempts to change course. The institutions of the Imperium have been set up to watch each other, and the infighting and political deadlock means there is no substantial reform on a large scale. Even a reformist minded High Lord or other major political figure would have their ideas diluted to insignificance or reduced to pointless mission statements.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The rumour mill actually claims we're going to get a 40k End Times arc soon.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-bombshell-end-times-coming.html

TBF all that excerpt about fighting on terra is reference to the final acts of the heresy.

I could see Pimp Daddy Calgar coming back though. swaggering out of stasis hollering at his scions.

Grilyman ''returning''... bleh

More IG stuff please.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The rumour mill actually claims we're going to get a 40k End Times arc soon.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-bombshell-end-times-coming.html

TBF all that excerpt about fighting on terra is reference to the final acts of the heresy.

I could see Pimp Daddy Calgar coming back though. swaggering out of stasis hollering at his scions.

Calgar isn't in stasis, that's Guilleman.

Doesn't matter, though, as the rumor about Graham McNeill doing an "End Times" story/setting/campaign/whatever is just that, a rumor. This is a link that Graham McNeill (or whoever posts as him on his blog) sent me earlier today:
http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

jareddm wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
I think that when (or if) they ever finish heresy we may get some minor progress of some kind.

Or more likely and more interestingly, an Age of Apostasy set up.

Is it really more likely because it would be totally different from 40k there would be no space Marines and i don't see them making something with no space marines.

The Space Marines were involved in the Age of Apostasy. In fact, that is where several Chapters either began, or cemented, their ties to the Ecclesiarchy, in supporting Sebastian Thor's march on Terra.