Grand Theft Auto V: Target, Kmart pull game off shelves over sexual violence controversy (Australia)

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**Co'tor Shas**

Target and Kmart have pulled video game Grand Theft Auto V (GTA V) off shelves over controversy about the game's depiction of violence against women.

The R-rated game has been available on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 for more than a year but was re-released last month on Xbox One and PlayStation 4.

A Change.org petition calling on the retailer to withdraw the game from sale gained more than 44,000 signatures.

The women behind the petition, named on the site as Nicole, Claire and Kat, said as survivors of sexual violence they felt the game sent a dangerous message.

"It's a game that encourages players to murder women for entertainment. The incentive is to commit sexual violence against women, then abuse or kill them to proceed or get 'health' points – and now Target are stocking it and promoting it for your Xmas stocking," the petition said.

"This misogynistic GTA V literally makes a game of bashing, killing and horrific violence against women."

Target general manager of corporate affairs Jim Cooper said the decision to stop selling the game was made following extensive community and customer concern.

"We've been speaking to many customers over recent days about the game, and there is a significant level of concern about the game's content," Mr Cooper said in a statement.

"We've also had customer feedback in support of us selling the game, and we respect their perspective on the issue.

"However, we feel the decision to stop selling GTA V is in line with the majority view of our customers."

A Kmart spokesman said: "Following a significant review of all content in Grand Theft Auto Games, Kmart has taken the decision to remove this product immediately.

"Kmart apologises for not being closer to the content of this game."

The Australian Classification Board said it was a matter for individual retailers to determine which games they wished to stock and make available for consumers.

The board introduced the R 18+ category for computer games on January 1, 2013.

"This category was specifically introduced to ensure that high-impact content would be appropriately restricted to adults, and that minors would be protected from material that is not suitable for them," the board said in a statement.

source

**Melissia**

That was pretty much predictable. I don't think it should be banned for this, myself.

Though that said, I certainly see why they're bothered by a game which is nothing more than a poorly written power fantasy, where the devs made the poor decision to actively include a sex scene where you graphically (if in poor quality) pork a
(female, of course, can't have gay sex) hooker and then allowing violence against said hooker afterwards, even rewarding it through the hooker dropping money.

It's not really hard to see their point about how tasteless and stupid GTA5 is, even if you disagree with what they think should be done about it.

**Co'tor Shas**

Just my personal take on this, this is not feminism, nor is it good to get rid of actual sexism in games. It's just another scapegoating of video games as the new target for hate. You can't make women a protected class in games, which is actually sexist. It's saying that women have to be protected. Now I don't care much for GTA, it is just violence for the sake of violence, this violence is not directed at women in particular. It is directed at everybody. Not only that, this is censorship of an art-form. Not state censorship (although Aus. has gotten pretty good at that

), but corporate censorship pushed by a group that isn't even the consumers for this game. Video games are just another form of media, like movies, television, books, ect. People like to treat them differently, but they are the same, and this should be treated as any other attempt by "morality protectors" to censor any other type of media. From what I've read of game of thrones, it depicts plenty of violence against women, sexual and otherwise. Should we now pull that off shelves? And in GTA you have the choice to not kill women*, you don't have that option. There is even one guy, the "GTA pacifist" goldvision, who is endeavoring to play through GTA online without harming anybody than what is necessary (like missions you have to do).

Blegh. Stuff like this really pisses me off.

*Other than story based "you must kill" stuff.

**Melissia**

This is feminism. We might call the petitioners misaimed or misguided feminists, but I still think they're feminists.

That said, I very much disagree when the response to something stupid, tasteless, and misogynistic-- like GTA5-- is an instant "BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT" instead of looking at the underlying causes of the stupid, tasteless, and misogynistic thing.

**A Town Called Malus**

This misogynistic GTA V literally makes a game of bashing, killing and horrific violence against women.

Ah yes, because there is no horrific violence against men in the GTA games.

The only difference between the sexes in GTA games in terms of the player interacting with random unnamed NPCs is that you can have sex with some of the women.

**Melissia**

Yes, and it is a common theme in the most violently misogynistic of societies-- such as Sub-Saharan Africa-- that women are sexually used, killed, and discarded by men with power, and with men in power using rape as a weapon against them to terrify and keep everyone in line.

GTA5 does not yet do the second part. But the first it has done, and the person in power is the player.

**A Town Called Malus**

Melissia wrote:
Yes, and it is a common theme in the most violently misogynistic of societies-- such as Sub-Saharan Africa-- that women are sexually used, killed, and discarded by men with power, and with men in power using rape as a weapon against them to terrify and keep everyone in line.

GTA5 does not yet do the second part. But the first it has done, and the person in power is the player.

But again, the game does not make the player do that.

You could have sex with the prostitute, pay her and let her go.

Or not have sex with the prostitute at all.

Or kill everyone in a 5 block radius with a machine gun MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

**Melissia**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
But again, the game does not make the player do that.

You could have sex with the prostitute, pay her and let her go.

True. But it rewards the player for doing so. Ergo, the game actively encourages this.

The rewards are health for using the hooker, and money for killing her.

**ZebioLizard2**

Melissia wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
But again, the game does not make the player do that.

You could have sex with the prostitute, pay her and let her go.
True. But it rewards the player for doing so. Ergo, the game actively encourages this.

The rewards are health for using the hooker, and money for killing her.

And money for murdering everyone else, which now means it's encouraging people to murder men and women.

So basically, we are back to the Jack Thompson debate where Games encourage people to do X.

So we just remove the prostitution and then it's all fine apparently.

**Melissia**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And money for murdering everyone else

Which, yes, is less of an issue than buying a woman's body, using it, and then killing her afterwards.

**Co'tor Shas**

Melissia wrote:
This is feminism. We might call the petitioners misaimed or misguided feminists, but I still think they're feminists.

That said, I very much disagree when the response to something stupid, tasteless, and misogynistic-- like GTA5-- is an instant "BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT" instead of looking at the underlying causes of the stupid, tasteless, and misogynistic thing.

I said that this is not feminism, not that it's not feminists. Bit confusing, but I tend to ramble

. What I mean is that I don't consider this feminism. Sort of a personal thing with me. Probably no true scotsman when I think about it, but oh well. I essentially mean that this an action that does nothing to advance female equality. If they were pushing to have a a female playable character or something, then yes, I would probably support them, but they are just going, "violence against women, lets ban it" which, while technically true, there is at least an equal amount of violence against women. The sex thing I agree with you on, they should get some male prostitutes as well, that way everybody will be happy

. Or something

Although I was thinking about the player in control thing that you said, and when you think about it, isn't all sex in video games rape, as the NPCs have no capacity to refuse.. I probably shouldn't look so far into this.

**Chongara**

I've always found the GTA games to be rather crass and tasteless in general. They've definitely got some specific problems with how women are treated, but I've never found that to be the most problematic of their content. Though, that really says more about the games other content than it does about the misogyny. Which is sad because I like the general concept of the GTA games and some of their mechanics. However, they hit that perfect sort of uncanny valley between full silly immaturity and more gritty realism that just comes off as gross.

I remember I went over my buddies house one time when he was playing GTAV and he was in the middle of an actual torture mini-game.Just ick. ick, ick, ick.

I'd certainly wouldn't be upset if GTA didn't exist and I think gaming general would be better for it, but censorship isn't the right way to get us there.

**ZebioLizard2**

Melissia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And money for murdering everyone else
Which, yes, is less of an issue than buying a woman's body, using it, and then killing her afterwards.

Maybe we should just go the extra mile and make male prostitutes as well for equality sake.

I'd certainly wouldn't be upset if GTA didn't exist and I think gaming general would be better for it, but censorship isn't the right way to get us there.

Not really, it's what defined that brand of Sand box genre to begin with, the genre really didn't take off till GTA 3 and previous attempts were clunky and undefined.

**Melissia**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I essentially mean that this an action that does nothing to advance female equality.

I certainly agree. I don't like it when feminists basically side with the religious moral guardians, the same moral guardians whom would love to banish feminism to begin with and blame feminism for just about everything wrong with society (one of them recently blamed the Furgeson riots on feminism!).

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Although I was thinking about the player in control thing that you said, and when you think about it, isn't all sex in video games rape, as the NPCs have no capacity to refuse.. I probably shouldn't look so far into this.

NPCs are also not actual, real living beings, either. Preventing harm to real people is worth more than anyone's moral crusade, no matter what that crusade is, but NPCs aren't by any stretch of the word sentient.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Maybe we should just go the extra mile and make male prostitutes as well for equality sake.

We should, yes. And their sex scenes should be just as graphic as the female prostitute sex scenes, too.

But they didn't. To me, it's rather telling that they only see women as fit to be used and discarded sexually.

**Co'tor Shas**

Melissia wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
I essentially mean that this an action that does nothing to advance female equality.
I certainly agree. I don't like it when feminists basically side with the religious moral guardians, the same moral guardians whom would love to banish feminism to begin with and blame feminism for just about everything wrong with society (one of them recently blamed the Furgeson riots on feminism!).

Seriously?

I'm not sure if that's more stupid or hilarious.

**Melissia**

It's off topic, so I'll just PM the link.

**Chongara**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Not really, it's what defined that brand of Sand box genre to begin with, the genre really didn't take off till GTA 3 and previous attempts were clunky and undefined.

I think sandbox games would have happened just fine without GTA. It's a rather natural point for games to reach. If GTA(3) never happened, someone else would have done it within a few years time. Obviously, short of having a time machine this is just speculation but in general if an idea is good, it will be found independently by multiple people or groups. Modern sandboxes would have still appeared, just perhaps a couple years later.

**ZebioLizard2**

NPCs are also not actual, real living beings, either. Preventing harm to real people is worth more than anyone's moral crusade, no matter what that crusade is, but NPCs aren't by any stretch of the word sentient.

We should, yes. And their sex scenes should be just as graphic as the female prostitute sex scenes, too.

But they didn't. To me, it's rather telling that they only see women as fit to be used and discarded sexually.

So are they using Real Living Beings as prostitutes in video games now, or are your messages becoming rather mixed, because now your equating the actions of people against NPC's as those of their opinion of actual people.

**Melissia**

I think you should keep in mind that I'm not advocating banning GTA5, I'm simply saying GTA5 is tasteless and does gak without really wondering about the message it's sending to people-- or perhaps even actively embracing the misogynistic messages it sends.

**Thaylen**

Maybe we should just make women unkillable in videogames. Just like children in skyrim. That wouldn't be misogynistic at all.

/sarcasm

Seriously though, my wife and I have both played GTA V. Neither of us feels that the game encourages the abuse of women. That said, if you are letting video games determine your behavior, there are much deeper underlying problems at heart.

**nomotog**

I don't really like bans. I would rather see something criticized then ban it outright. I think most people kind of think that way already though so I don't know why I bother mentioning it.

The weird prostitute ritual is something that, well it boggles the mind why it has gone unchallenged for so long. Maybe because it's freaky when you think about it, but not when you do it? I didn't actively notice it till it was shown in one of the tropes v women videos. It's almost an automatic response that swims underneath.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
There is even one guy, the "GTA pacifist" goldvision, who is endeavoring to play through GTA online without harming anybody than what is necessary (like missions you have to do).

Good games allows you to kill no-one. Like Postal². In Postal², it is really your choice if you decide to kill someone in a gruesome, extremely cruel and violent and crude fashion

.
(However, you have no female skin other than for the “flags” in the multiplayer mode

).
Postal² is much more silly satire than GTA though. They have a reinstatement of the Waco siege, a reinstatement of the Pulp Fiction abduction scene, Krotchy, pissing on yourself when you are one fire, and all that.

Chongara wrote:
Which is sad because I like the general concept of the GTA games and some of their mechanics. However, they hit that perfect sort of uncanny valley between full silly immaturity and more gritty realism that just comes off as gross.

As far as I can tell, the Saint Row franchise totally qualifies for full silly immaturity, at least in the latter installments, while being very close to the mechanics of GTA.

Chongara wrote:
I remember I went over my buddies house one time when he was playing GTAV and he was in the middle of an actual torture mini-game.Just ick. ick, ick, ick.

Never play Punisher, the game based on the Marvel character, then. Completely full of those. If you screw up, you kill the guy before he gives you the information you need. If you do not, you kill him afterward.

**Manchu**

Melissia wrote:
even actively embracing the misogynistic messages it sends

Yep. Video games, especially big budget AAA games, are the product of intentional, reflective design. GTA revels in its tasteless chauvinism. That tone is not a mistake or accident.

**nomotog**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Never play Punisher, the game based on the Marvel character, then. Completely full of those. If you screw up, you kill the guy before he gives you the information you need. If you do not, you kill him afterward.

Ick Ick ick. At least in GTA V the torture was framed as a bad thing. Even Trever goes on a rant about how torture is bad.. After being the one who did it...

**CthuluIsSpy**

I played the punisher once.
Yeah, it was pretty brutal.
Then again, Frank Castle is a pretty brutal guy, so it works.
I would not advise it if one is squeamish though.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

nomotog wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Never play Punisher, the game based on the Marvel character, then. Completely full of those. If you screw up, you kill the guy before he gives you the information you need. If you do not, you kill him afterward.

Ick Ick ick. At least in GTA V the torture was framed as a bad thing. Even Trever goes on a rant about how torture is bad.. After being the one who did it...

I found it, for your eyes

.
NSFW because extreme violence:

Spoiler:

True to the original comic character though.

**ZebioLizard2**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Never play Punisher, the game based on the Marvel character, then. Completely full of those. If you screw up, you kill the guy before he gives you the information you need. If you do not, you kill him afterward.

Ick Ick ick. At least in GTA V the torture was framed as a bad thing. Even Trever goes on a rant about how torture is bad.. After being the one who did it...

I found it, for your eyes .
NSFW because extreme violence:

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0WQrSweaM

True to the original comic character though.

Having actually read the punisher comics, that's nothing compared to some of the stuff he does in Punisher Max, there's a reason why many Heroes in that universe never want to be near or work with Frank because unlike most he really is a man who went so far over the edge in believing "Pay Evil Unto Evil".

They also tried putting him in Jail, he simply promised to murder all those in with him too, short of killing him he won't exactly stop that.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Having actually read the punisher comics, that's nothing compared to some of the stuff he does in Punisher Max

I have read the Punisher Max, I remember him doing similar stuff but nothing really worse than that.

**CthuluIsSpy**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
nomotog wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Never play Punisher, the game based on the Marvel character, then. Completely full of those. If you screw up, you kill the guy before he gives you the information you need. If you do not, you kill him afterward.

Ick Ick ick. At least in GTA V the torture was framed as a bad thing. Even Trever goes on a rant about how torture is bad.. After being the one who did it...

I found it, for your eyes .
NSFW because extreme violence:

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0WQrSweaM

True to the original comic character though.

Having actually read the punisher comics, that's nothing compared to some of the stuff he does in Punisher Max, there's a reason why many Heroes in that universe never want to be near or work with Frank because unlike most he really is a man who went so far over the edge in believing "Pay Evil Unto Evil".

They also tried putting him in Jail, he simply promised to murder all those in with him too, short of killing him he won't exactly stop that.

I heard things about punisher max, scary things.
Didn't Bullseye once try to think like Castle by

Spoiler:

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
Melissia wrote:
even actively embracing the misogynistic messages it sends
Yep. Video games, especially big budget AAA games, are the product of intentional, reflective design. GTA revels in its tasteless chauvinism. That tone is not a mistake or accident.

I find the difference between GTA's chauvinism and that of Duke Nukem Forever (where it's a part of the main character's personality, but they tried to build it to discourage abusiveness) is pretty stark.