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2014/12/05 20:17:12
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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So the Legacies of Glory in the IA:2 book state that they can be taken on any vehicle in a Codex: Space Marines Army. Certain Imperial Knights (Lancer for instance) can be taken as Lords of War in a Space Marine army. They are vehicles. Therefor, can I take a Legacy of Glory for a knight taken in such a manner? Sniff... sniff... Cheese? Whatcha all reckon?
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2014/12/05 21:05:01
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Most of the Legacies include the phrase "... may be taken by any single Space Marine vehicle..." or something to that effect. So while they're in a Space Marine army, by being chosen from Codex Imperial Knights I would say that strictly speaking they're not a 'Space Marine vehicle'.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 21:10:22
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Damn. That's pretty good reasoning...
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2014/12/05 21:24:21
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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If they can be chosen as a LoW choice in a Space Marine Detachment, then they are Faction: Space Marines and can be considered a Space Marine Vehicle.
The fact that the unit entry is listed in Codex: Imperial Knights is irrelevant. The only relevant point is that they are being taken in a Space Marine Detachment.
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2014/12/05 21:45:45
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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I see where it says that many Detachments can only include units of a particular Faction and where the CAD says all units must be of the same Faction (or have no Faction). Can you point out where it says all units in a single Detachment are considered to be of the same Faction.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 21:46:09
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 21:52:50
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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 Ghaz wrote:I see where it says that many Detachments can only include units of a particular Faction and where the CAD says all units must be of the same Faction (or have no Faction). Can you point out where it says all units in a single Detachment are considered to be of the same Faction.
Well, it changes on a per Detachment basis, but I believe the only Space Marine Detachment that can have a LoW currently is the Combined Arms one. How would you go about including an Imperial Knight Faction Knight in a Space Marines Combined Arms Detachment and obey the restriction that all units in the Detachment be Space Marines Faction or have no Faction (like a fortification)?
Also, I'm having a brain lapse. Where does it say I can take an Imperial Knight as a LoW choice for a SM army? I'm checking all the likely places and not finding it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Found the Forgeworld sheet for the Lancer... it contains this wording...
"Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Lancer may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)."
If you took it for a Blood Angels Army, it would be a Blood Angels Cerastus Knight-Lancer. If you took it for a Adepta Sororitas army, it would be an Adepta Sororitas Cerastus Knight-Lancer.
If you take if for a Space Marines Army, it would be a Space Marines Cerastus Knight-Lancer, would fulfill the requirement of being a Space Marine Vehicle and would be eligible for the Legacies.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 21:56:13
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2014/12/05 21:57:23
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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 Kriswall wrote:Also, I'm having a brain lapse. Where does it say I can take an Imperial Knight as a LoW choice for a SM army? I'm checking all the likely places and not finding it.
Forge World Knights, not the Paladin/Errant.
You'll not the OP was using Lancer as an example.
Experimental rules are found in the download section.
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2014/12/05 21:59:37
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Yeah... I found it too late. Ultimately, the FW Knights can be taken EITHER as a part of a Codex: Imperial Knights Detachment OR as a LoW choice in a Imperium of Man Detachment.
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2014/12/05 22:01:26
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Kriswall wrote:How would you go about including an Imperial Knight Faction Knight in a Space Marines Combined Arms Detachment and obey the restriction that all units in the Detachment be Space Marines Faction or have no Faction (like a fortification)?
Basic versus Advanced.
Kriswall wrote:Also, I'm having a brain lapse. Where does it say I can take an Imperial Knight as a LoW choice for a SM army? I'm checking all the likely places and not finding it.
I'm not seeing it either, unless it's some specific Forge World variant. We might be arguing a moot point and there's no way to get an Imperial Knight in a Space Marine CAD.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 22:07:18
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Lol... I think we are arguing a moot point. I don't think the standard Imperial Knight variants included in the Codex can ever be in a SM CAD. All the FW variants can be SM Faction Knights.
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2014/12/05 22:07:23
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Kriswall wrote:Yeah... I found it too late. Ultimately, the FW Knights can be taken EITHER as a part of a Codex: Imperial Knights Detachment OR as a LoW choice in a Imperium of Man Detachment.
Then I would recommend emailing Forge World for an answer, as they're usually pretty good at answering but right now I would say the following from the Cerastus Knight-Acheron supports the 'no' answer I gave earler:
Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Acheron may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 22:10:30
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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They're still listed as Faction: Imperial Knights.
So either the rule replaces their faction, or it allows its inclusion despite the faction.
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2014/12/05 22:14:40
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 22:14:56
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Let me ask this, are Super-Heavy Vehicles, vehicles?
If you look at unit type things like Rhinos, Skytalons, Dreadnoughts etc. have a Unit Type of "Vehicle (X)", where as Imperial Knights, Baneblades, etc have a Unit Type of "Super-heavy Vehicle (X)".
Where in both cases "X" are various sub-types, such as Flyer, Walker, Fast, etc.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2014/12/05 22:19:50
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Yes? The question wasn't if they were vehicles, but if they're Space Marine vehicles.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 22:20:24
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Ghaz wrote:Yes? The question wasn't if they were vehicles, but if they're Space Marine vehicles.
The thing is if they are not "vehicles" they cannot be Space Marine vehicles.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2014/12/05 22:24:56
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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 Happyjew wrote: Ghaz wrote:Yes? The question wasn't if they were vehicles, but if they're Space Marine vehicles.
The thing is if they are not "vehicles" they cannot be Space Marine vehicles.
Unit Type: Vehicle (Super-Heavy Walker)
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2014/12/05 22:26:48
Subject: Re:Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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From Codex: Imperial Knights:
UNIT TYPE: Vehicle (Super-heavy Walker).
It's the same for all of the Forge World experimental Knights as well. Not really sure what point you're driving at 
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/05 22:27:32
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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 grendel083 wrote: Happyjew wrote: Ghaz wrote:Yes? The question wasn't if they were vehicles, but if they're Space Marine vehicles.
The thing is if they are not "vehicles" they cannot be Space Marine vehicles.
Unit Type: Vehicle (Super-Heavy Walker)
I withdraw my questioning. I was mis-remembering based on the whole "Can Super-Heavy Walkers Tank Shock?" thread from a while back.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2014/12/05 23:04:31
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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If a unit can be taken as a LoW choice for Space Marines, it is a Space Marines LoW choice. How is this difficult?
The Forgeworld Knights can be different factions based on the army you take them for in much the same way that Cypher can be a Space Wolf or a Chaos Space Marine or even a Sister of Battle (the last makes me giggle).
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2014/12/06 00:16:26
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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The Forge World rules for the Acheron etc do NOT say experimental. They are stamped 40,000 - as in 40k rules. And the Legacies of Glory specifically give different costs for Superheavies and for regular vehicles. So you can definitely take them on Superheavies.
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2014/12/06 00:16:26
Subject: Re:Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Because the rule says it's doesn't become 'Faction: Space Marines'
Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Acheron may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).
Basic versus Advanced. The rule lets the Knight be taken as a Lord of War in any other faction that the rulebook considers to be an 'Army of the Imperium'. It doesn't state that they become the same faction as the other units in the detachment. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kholzerino wrote:The Forge World rules for the Acheron etc do NOT say experimental. They are stamped 40,000 - as in 40k rules. And the Legacies of Glory specifically give different costs for Superheavies and for regular vehicles. So you can definitely take them on Superheavies.
Yes, you can take them on superheavies. Some of them even give explicit prices for using them on superheavies. The problem with the Knights are they're not Space Marine vehicles. They're Imperial Knight vehicles.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/06 00:18:19
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/06 01:10:40
Subject: Re:Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Ghaz wrote:Because the rule says it's doesn't become 'Faction: Space Marines'
Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Acheron may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).
Basic versus Advanced. The rule lets the Knight be taken as a Lord of War in any other faction that the rulebook considers to be an 'Army of the Imperium'. It doesn't state that they become the same faction as the other units in the detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kholzerino wrote:The Forge World rules for the Acheron etc do NOT say experimental. They are stamped 40,000 - as in 40k rules. And the Legacies of Glory specifically give different costs for Superheavies and for regular vehicles. So you can definitely take them on Superheavies.
Yes, you can take them on superheavies. Some of them even give explicit prices for using them on superheavies. The problem with the Knights are they're not Space Marine vehicles. They're Imperial Knight vehicles.
You are wrong. If a model can be taken as a LoW choice for a Space Marines army, it is a Space Marines LoW choice. For all intents and purposes, you could print multiple copies of the unit entry and staple it into the back of every imperial codex.
The FW Knights can basically EITHER be taken in an Imperial Knights Detachment OR as a LoW choice in various Imperial Armies. Taking it in a Space Marines army doesn't somehow make it an Imperial Knights Faction unit. If you think it does, please explain how. It is not found in Codex: Imperial Knights and has no rule saying it's an Imperial Knights Faction unit when selected as part of a Space Marine army.
Feel free to give it a Legacy. Ghaz is incorrect in this instance. He has it in his head that being a Knight makes the model an Imperial Knight Faction unit. Not the case.
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2014/12/06 01:15:04
Subject: Re:Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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Again, the rule that allows you to take a Knight as a lord of War says otherwise:
Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Acheron may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).
That allows you to take a Knight in a non-Imperial Knight faction Detachment and says nothing about it becoming a different faction.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/06 01:19:10
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Where does it say it's an Imperial Knights Faction unit to begin with? It's not being selected from Codex: Imperial Knights.
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2014/12/06 01:20:48
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Lieutenant General
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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2014/12/06 01:21:17
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Kriswall wrote:Where does it say it's an Imperial Knights Faction unit to begin with? It's not being selected from Codex: Imperial Knights.
There are 3 symbols on the unit entry:
1). 40,000 stamp
2). Lord of War stamp
3). Imperial Knights faction stamp
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2014/12/06 01:22:20
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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The Lord of War and Imperial Knights stamps are Battlefield Roles. They tell you which boxes on a Detachment or Formation's force org charts a unit can fulfill. What they don't do is tell you what the Faction is. Try again. Where does it tell you what the Faction is?
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2014/12/06 01:23:15
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Kriswall wrote:The Lord of War and Imperial Knights stamps are Battlefield Roles. They tell you which boxes on a Detachment or Formation's force org charts a unit can fulfill. What they don't do is tell you what the Faction is. Try again. Where does it tell you what the Faction is?
Imperial Knight is NOT a Battlefield role, it's a Faction.
EDIT: After a second look at the rules, you're correct. It is also used as a Battlefield role.
So it's used as both, as it's also their faction symbol, if you check the faction rules as well.
Since there is also the LoW battlefield role symbol, and a unit doesn't cover two roles, it's likely it's the faction symbol in this case.
EDIT EDIT: or it could show the battlefield role in a Knight Detachment, and in different detachment. It's not clear either way.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/06 01:38:30
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2014/12/06 01:36:11
Subject: Knights as Lords of War - Legacies of Glory
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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grendel083 wrote: Kriswall wrote:The Lord of War and Imperial Knights stamps are Battlefield Roles. They tell you which boxes on a Detachment or Formation's force org charts a unit can fulfill. What they don't do is tell you what the Faction is. Try again. Where does it tell you what the Faction is?
Imperial Knight is NOT a Battlefield role, it's a Faction.
It absolutely is. I think the core issue is that you don't realize that Imperial Knight is a Battlefield Role. Imperial Knight Detachments are comprised of 1-3 Imperial Knights and can have no other units. The force org chart associated with this Detachment has the Imperial Knights stamp logo in place of things like the Troops or Elites or Lord of War stamps.
Besides...
Small rulebook, Page 119, Battlefield Role section, "However you choose your army, all units must have a Battlefield Role."
Further down the same page, under the Other heading (which has a picture of the Imperial Knight stamp... "Some publications introduce other types of Battlefield Role, such as Imperial Knights, and will include all the tules you need to include them as part of your army."
What, do you contend, is the Battlefield Role of the units selected in an Imperial Knights Detachment if it's not the Imperial Knights Battlefield Role. It's not Lord of War. The Imperial Knights Detachment has no Lord of War slots.
So, if the Knight-Archeron is chosen for an Imperial Knights Detachment, it is an Imperial Knights Faction unit with the Battlefield Role Imperial Knights. If the Knight-Archeron is chosen for a Space Marines Combined Arms Detachment, it is a Space Marines Faction unit with the Battlefield Role Lord of War and would be eligible for Legacies as it is a Space Marine Vehicle of Type (Superheavy Walker). Automatically Appended Next Post: grendel083 wrote: Kriswall wrote:The Lord of War and Imperial Knights stamps are Battlefield Roles. They tell you which boxes on a Detachment or Formation's force org charts a unit can fulfill. What they don't do is tell you what the Faction is. Try again. Where does it tell you what the Faction is?
Imperial Knight is NOT a Battlefield role, it's a Faction.
EDIT: After a second look at the rules, you're correct. It is also used as a Battlefield role.
So it's used as both, as it's also their faction symbol, if you check the faction rules as well.
Since there is also the LoW battlefield role symbol, and a unit doesn't cover two roles, it's likely it's the faction symbol in this case.
The Unit would have two Battlefield Roles in it's Unit Entry if it were able to fulfill two Battlefield Roles in different detachments... like this Unit can!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/06 01:37:14
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