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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/21 08:52:20
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Douglas Bader
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Melissia wrote:Cut-out art of it has depicted it with an internal suspension in the past.
If it's the cut-out art I'm thinking of (from IA1) it says it has a suspension, but it doesn't actually function. There are springs on the wheels, but if they move up more than an inch or two the sides of the tank hit the ground. So, if anything, the cut-out art demonstrates that the LRBT's design is even worse than it looks from the outside, as it has all of the drawbacks of a tank with no suspension on top of the complexity added by all the redundant non-functioning suspension bits. IOW, it's exactly what you'd expect from a bunch of ignorant religious zealots who believe that proper science and engineering are heresy and can only build stuff by mindlessly following the blueprints (even when those blueprints have become corrupted and are obviously wrong).
THough for the life of me, I don't know why you think this is unusual, considering the Abrams isn't much shorter than that at eight feet.
It's not just the height, it's the height relative to the tank's size. The LRBT is ridiculously tall because of suicidally stupid design choices, not because it's a big vehicle that will inevitably be fairly tall.
See previous point about lacking a suspension. The LRBT has maybe an inch or two of ground clearance at most, on anything rougher than a high-quality paved road the sides of the tank will sink into the ground and immobilize it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/21 08:54:05
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/21 10:12:47
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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... the LR is listed as having almost half a meter of ground clearance. That's more than sufficient for most any terrain. It's only very slightly (0.01m) less than an Abrams.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/21 15:11:39
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Art majors designing tanks? I'm working off of the assumption that the transmission is intended to work properly, even though GW's employees have no idea how it is supposed to work.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/21 15:12:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/21 20:10:19
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Lets also keep in mind the current Leman Russ kit isn't much different from the original early 90's Leman Russ kit, when *everything* had a much more "early 20th century industrial" vibe, while most other factions have moved away from that.
Space Marine Predators at the time looked like this, representing a design philosophy and visual imagery of primarily first world war vintage.
The new Predator released in 2001 or 2002 and at least looks far more modern (even if still notably "wrong" from a modern tank perspective), it looks much more the part
Here's what the original Leman Russ kit looks like (with updated 3E accessory commander & searchlight). Also a very WW1 looking design, extremely primitive and somewhat cartoony (particularly the small turret with the huge gun)
Here's the updated version. As we can see, not very much has change at all, the turret is a bit wider, the lines on the turret sides are different, it's not quite as cartoony (the updated lascannon bit also helps there) but still has the oversized gun on a very small turret, while the hull is identical in its entirety.
The Leman Russ is a remnant of GW's old imagery, the type of thing you might expect to see in a Ralph Bakshi animated movie. They're not really very practical or modern or functional (trying to repair a road wheel on one of these tanks would require removing half the tank basically), and remain wedded to the "retro" vibe of GW's earlier years that other factions have mostly moved away from.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 01:36:54
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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And here is a slightly less ancient take on it, mainly achieved by turning it back-to-front. Great conversion.
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I let the dogs out |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 01:40:41
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Oooh, I like that.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 01:45:43
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Its one of my favourites, I just wish it was still in production (apparently some guy in Russia was producing and selling them a few years back. Called them King Russ tank aka Golgotha Assault Tank).
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I let the dogs out |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 01:46:39
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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It does remind me of a baneblade.
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 03:50:57
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Truth be told I like the design of the Leman Russ. It's ugly, it's stupid and it looks like it would get stuck in a muddy field faster than you can say "German Assault into Soviet Union":. However, it also looks like it's tough as nails and brutish. I don't know, maybe I'm just weird.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/22 07:50:04
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Dakka Veteran
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Well maybe one of the reasons it functions so well is because belief in the machine-spirit and omnissiah keep it working. Also the russ may utilize technology we are currently un-aware of.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 07:52:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 14:13:19
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Gibbering Horde of Chaos
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the LR is more the tank equivalent of the metaphor.. the IOM throws them at targets until they break, and enough firepower will get the job done.
the 5:1 thing is in the tau codex (under the hammer head if i recall) but that was to show the hammerheads hit and run capabilities.. in a straight fight the hammer heads will be blown away due to the sheer weight of ordinance thrown about. the hammer head sacrifices durability for manuverbility and equipment.. sure the rail gun can hit like a real *** but that is with a plasma reactor in tow with all the problems associated.. where the hammer head shines is the whole concept of a gun ship, and that is popping in and out of cover, but where the LR shines is the simple felxability of the chassis, the battle cannon should speak volumes. but the LR get the short end of plot Armour (Grimdark is grim dark) ...
but it depends on how you see the IOM, a theocratic dictator ship commanded by morons or a military force made to make do with the worst of situations of ten thousand years of constant warfare.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 18:02:16
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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hjksos wrote:
but it depends on how you see the IOM, a theocratic dictator ship commanded by morons or a military force made to make do with the worst of situations of ten thousand years of constant warfare.
It's a theocratic dictatorship.
It's a theocratic dictatorship that worships a dying atheist with a bureaucracy so bloated and inefficient that entire Space Marine Chapters and alien civilizations are routinely forgotten.
... and open plains are a "straight fight." Kursk or the Golan Heights. Iraq. The biggest tank battles in history can only get that big because terrain is open enough to allow that many tanks to engage. In urban, mountain, or forest fighting, the Tau have better options- stealth teams and Orca-dropped Crisis suits with fusion weapons. Fire Warriors with EMP graenades... though, it's smart to remember that all tanks fare very poorly in those situations. Tanks are best used for combat in open areas- something I expect the Tau rarely forget, unlike their Imperial counterparts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 18:02:58
Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 19:28:36
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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Its plenty survivable unless it is:
1.) With the tech priest who forget to beseech the machine-spirit in the proper ritual.
2.) In melee range of any monstrous creature.
3.) In melee range of any enemy dreadnought or walker.
4.) Is noticed by a titan or large walker whose mad they don't have AV-14 and gets jealous.
5.) Noticed by threats like Fire Dragons, Shadow-Spectres, Broadsides, Tank Bustas, Burnaboys etc.
6.) Operated by an incompetent crew. (Though this rectifies itself when the commissar finds out.)
7.) Meeting a bigger tank.
8.) Meeting someone who has a Krak Grenade, Melta Bomb or that guy at the back of the squad with the hidden power-fist to the rear armor.
9.) Is targeted by heavy weapons (las-cannon, plasma-gun, auto-cannon at close range, lifta-droppa, a spit-ball).
10.) Going through a minefield.
11.) Meeting Sly-Marbo or Iron-Hand Straken for the first time.
11.) Pointed in the wrong direction ( at which point the crew's survivability will be in question when the commissar finds out).
13.) Mistaken for a lemon by gork and mork and squeezed accordingly. Gotta love that russ-nade.
14.) Is playing "chicken" with a battle-wagon driver who remembered to bring his "deth-rolla".
15.) On a list a G W rule writer thinks needs to be toned down.
16.) Meets the guy its named after.
Other than that, sure its best thing to ever grace the battlefields of the 41st millennium.
You could apply this to every tank though TBH.
For what it does, it's survivability is great. It's a mobile pie plate delivery system. And AV 14 is the best AV you can get. And they can be modified to whatever you need to solve your problems. I wish I had more then just my Vanquisher and Punisher but oh well.
As far as fluff goes though I remember GW had a story where a group of Leman Russes SNUCK up on a Farseer and his warlocks, and PARKED the Russes on top of the Eldar's Falcon and Wave Serpents. So....yeah...if that behemoth can sneak up on a psychic powerhouse and his cronies in the middle of a jungle...can't be to bad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 20:43:47
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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EmpNortonII wrote: ... and open plains are a "straight fight." Kursk or the Golan Heights. Iraq. The biggest tank battles in history can only get that big because terrain is open enough to allow that many tanks to engage. In urban, mountain, or forest fighting, the Tau have better options- stealth teams and Orca-dropped Crisis suits with fusion weapons. Fire Warriors with EMP graenades... though, it's smart to remember that all tanks fare very poorly in those situations. Tanks are best used for combat in open areas- something I expect the Tau rarely forget, unlike their Imperial counterparts. And open plains favours the tank which combines manoeuvrability, durability, range, accuracy and firepower the most effectively. Which will not be the Leman Russ. The Leman Russ has good armour, so its durability is ok. It has a long range main gun, which is good. But it is slow and not particularly accurate or powerful, relying on high explosive rounds (in its main variant at least) to deal damage over a wide area rather than a 40k equivalent of a modern anti-tank round designed to punch through armour with little in the way of blast radius.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 20:49:40
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 20:55:23
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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KingmanHighborn wrote:Its plenty survivable unless it is:
1.) With the tech priest who forget to beseech the machine-spirit in the proper ritual.
2.) In melee range of any monstrous creature.
3.) In melee range of any enemy dreadnought or walker.
4.) Is noticed by a titan or large walker whose mad they don't have AV-14 and gets jealous.
5.) Noticed by threats like Fire Dragons, Shadow-Spectres, Broadsides, Tank Bustas, Burnaboys etc.
6.) Operated by an incompetent crew. (Though this rectifies itself when the commissar finds out.)
7.) Meeting a bigger tank.
8.) Meeting someone who has a Krak Grenade, Melta Bomb or that guy at the back of the squad with the hidden power-fist to the rear armor.
9.) Is targeted by heavy weapons (las-cannon, plasma-gun, auto-cannon at close range, lifta-droppa, a spit-ball).
10.) Going through a minefield.
11.) Meeting Sly-Marbo or Iron-Hand Straken for the first time.
11.) Pointed in the wrong direction ( at which point the crew's survivability will be in question when the commissar finds out).
13.) Mistaken for a lemon by gork and mork and squeezed accordingly. Gotta love that russ-nade.
14.) Is playing "chicken" with a battle-wagon driver who remembered to bring his "deth-rolla".
15.) On a list a G W rule writer thinks needs to be toned down.
16.) Meets the guy its named after.
Other than that, sure its best thing to ever grace the battlefields of the 41st millennium.
You could apply this to every tank though TBH.
For what it does, it's survivability is great. It's a mobile pie plate delivery system. And AV 14 is the best AV you can get. And they can be modified to whatever you need to solve your problems. I wish I had more then just my Vanquisher and Punisher but oh well.
As far as fluff goes though I remember GW had a story where a group of Leman Russes SNUCK up on a Farseer and his warlocks, and PARKED the Russes on top of the Eldar's Falcon and Wave Serpents. So....yeah...if that behemoth can sneak up on a psychic powerhouse and his cronies in the middle of a jungle...can't be to bad.
Sounds like the work of a tactical genius.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/28 23:30:31
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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KingmanHighborn wrote:Its plenty survivable unless it is:
11.) Pointed in the wrong direction ( at which point the crew's survivability will be in question before the commissar finds out).
Fixed that for you.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 23:31:01
Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 00:22:27
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I think the commissar will be paying attention to things like that.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 00:34:35
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but:
In Gunheads, there is an impact in the side armor from a round powerful enough to move the entire bulk of the Leman Russ sideways two meters in the desert sand. Not only did this round fail to penetrate, but the crew seem unperturbed, as if this was a routine occurrence.
Whatever that material is, it has more hardness/pound than diamond.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 02:41:22
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Dakka Veteran
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but:
In Gunheads, there is an impact in the side armor from a round powerful enough to move the entire bulk of the Leman Russ sideways two meters in the desert sand. Not only did this round fail to penetrate, but the crew seem unperturbed, as if this was a routine occurrence.
Whatever that material is, it has more hardness/pound than diamond.
Yes but they were fighting Orks. Orks don't always make reliable ordinance. Its just as likely to ping off your armor as it is to actually do anything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 02:57:23
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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To be fair, anything that's going to knock a tank two meters sideways should probably do absolutely terrible things to the crew even if it doesn't breach the armor, that's an unreal amount of force being applied there. Also internal equipment would be a great risk of flying off/breaking/etc. I'd just chalk that instance up to bad writing.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 02:59:54
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Bad writing? Or space magic technology?
The same book has a Leman Russ Conqueror using tractor beams as part of its gun recoil system, IIRC.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 03:00:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 07:20:14
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Dakka Veteran
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Vaktathi wrote:To be fair, anything that's going to knock a tank two meters sideways should probably do absolutely terrible things to the crew even if it doesn't breach the armor, that's an unreal amount of force being applied there. Also internal equipment would be a great risk of flying off/breaking/etc. I'd just chalk that instance up to bad writing.
Maybe the russ has some kind of internal inertia dampening - negation system or something to that affect that we are currently un-aware of. The exact workings of a russ have never been fully disclosed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 07:20:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 07:34:46
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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If they did they should be effectively immune to HP damage
We actually have a pretty detailed breakdown of a Leman Russ tank, IA Volume 1 has a cutaway that details just about everything inside (and basically its a Sherman with an overly small turret and turret ring and nowhere near as thick of armor plating as they state earlier in the book  )
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 08:22:46
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
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Melissia wrote:I think the commissar will be paying attention to things like that.
It's not like the Commissar can execute the tank to make the others turn around and fight.
Maybe that's what the LR Vanquisher was originally built for.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 08:23:16
Jon Garrett wrote:Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.
"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."
"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"
"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."
"...Kunnin'." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 08:37:16
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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EmpNortonII wrote: Melissia wrote:I think the commissar will be paying attention to things like that.
It's not like the Commissar can execute the tank to make the others turn around and fight.
Maybe that's what the LR Vanquisher was originally built for.
That's why LR Vanquisher originally had a Hat and not a Hatch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 09:04:31
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Douglas Bader
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Vaktathi wrote:and nowhere near as thick of armor plating as they state earlier in the book
Real-world tank armor is often given in equivalent inches/ mm of plain steel armor, so that you can compare overall protection levels instead of a meaningless thickness number. The cutaway drawing shows relatively thin armor compared to the numbers, but that's ok as long as you're willing to assume that the LRBT has better armor than the reference material.
Melissia wrote:I'm working off of the assumption that the transmission is intended to work properly, even though GW's employees have no idea how it is supposed to work.
IOW, assume that the LRBT is great and then discard any evidence that shows otherwise?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 20:16:59
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Vaktathi wrote:To be fair, anything that's going to knock a tank two meters sideways should probably do absolutely terrible things to the crew even if it doesn't breach the armor, that's an unreal amount of force being applied there. Also internal equipment would be a great risk of flying off/breaking/etc. I'd just chalk that instance up to bad writing.
It's Gunheads. Report to your local Arbites Precinct-Fortress for summary re-education, Citizen.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/29 22:17:39
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Peregrine wrote:IOW, assume that the LRBT is great and then discard any evidence that shows otherwise?
No, assume that the artists don't do their research (I mean FFS one of them is Blanche, what do you expect, quality?), and instead take a look at the tank's actual track record in the lore (the Imperial Guard's MBT; and using it, the Imperial Guard has generally held the line against all comers for ten thousand years) to determine its effectiveness.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/29 22:18:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/30 00:28:56
Subject: Re:how survivable are leman russ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote: Peregrine wrote:IOW, assume that the LRBT is great and then discard any evidence that shows otherwise?
No, assume that the artists don't do their research (I mean FFS one of them is Blanche, what do you expect, quality?), and instead take a look at the tank's actual track record in the lore (the Imperial Guard's MBT; and using it, the Imperial Guard has generally held the line against all comers for ten thousand years) to determine its effectiveness.
Given the Imperium's rather "unique" approach when it comes to technology, the fact that the Russ has been used for 10000 years is probably not going to support that the Russ is actualy a good tank but rather that the imperial guard had the skill and mettle to work around the tanks many limitations and that the Imperium's many enemies aren't particularly efficient either when it comes to designing engines of war.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/30 00:37:55
Subject: how survivable are leman russ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Or that the tank was actually better than the artists were able to render it.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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