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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Whenever people express interest in my models and want to get started in miniature wargaming themselves, I always advise them to stay well clear of GW and first consider the alternatives because GW is really crap value for money, unless they really really like the models/games. In which case I tell them how to save money by buying 2nd hand on ebay, or retailers that give discounts. Its not about bashing GW, its about giving my friends, and prospective hobbyists, good advice.

And here's my point in a nutshell.

GW is not significantly worse "value for money" than any other retailer out there. But they do have a flourishing alternative market in second hand figures for prospective entry level players.

and their falling revenue and profits suggests they aren't fulfilling the second

Without looking at the bigger picture, you can't say that. Well, i guess you can. You just did. But it isn't a fact. It's just a guess.

I mean, everybody harps on GW for not talking to its customer base, but what would you answer if you did?

"We want to pay less money and we want versions of the rules that make our existing model collections better so we don't have to buy new stuff."

The thing is, the rate of that turnover is influenced in no small part by how the company chooses to treat their existing customer base.

Another guess.

The reality is that people get older and their priorities change. For a lot of people, that means abandoning the game. I didn't play it for like ten years between when I gave it up and when I started my project log.

There's only so much money you can get out of existing customers, because again, it's a purchase you can finish, and an individual product line can only get so deep.

These customers wanting to give GW money don't actually exist. There are just a bunch of people who think they represent some untapped profit potential. See: SIsters of Battle fans, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

and their falling revenue and profits suggests they aren't fulfilling the second

Without looking at the bigger picture, you can't say that. Well, i guess you can. You just did. But it isn't a fact. It's just a guess.

I mean, everybody harps on GW for not talking to its customer base, but what would you answer if you did?

"We want to pay less money and we want versions of the rules that make our existing model collections better so we don't have to buy new stuff."

Nope, I'm on record in numerous more appropriate threads about what I feel I would do to get GW back in track.

Short answer, as it isn't especially on topic for this thread and it could very well spiral off in that direction - focus on the value of their offering, not exclusively the price and concentrate on making a game people are excited to play with models people want to own.

There's other things that need addressing, like the immense millstone of cost which is their retail chain, but I'll gloss over those for the sake of brevity.

People will buy new stuff if they're excited to own it, regardless of what they already own, that's the nature of a hobby with a collecting element to it - make a new Blood Angels Terminator Squad which gets people excited, it'll sell well beyond just BA players who want a TAS, make one that is thinly veiled resculpts of some Space Hulk CAD designs with limited poseability, you'll get a resounding Meh! from a lot of those potential purchasers. Make a new plastic Terminator Librarian you'll equally get a lot of interest, make it look cool, you'll get people excited - cover it in chapter specific iconography and design the kit so it is actually really tough to model as anything but the chapter it was designed for? Again, you've just cut out numerous sales from everyone who doesnt play BA.

None of these things are disastrous or the end of the world of course, just examples of something GW's does a lot which is get things almost right for many people. An improved dialogue with their customer base would let them readjust their aim, and start hitting the gold, rather than the red.

The simplest answer is wait two more weeks. We've had two sets of solid data points validating claims to the counter that dedicated fans still propose. A third set then sets a trend.

Highest volume of releases (ever?) to include new rules and nearly every faction and still diminished revenue and profit (even when taking out incidentals like the website and fighting Chapterhouse) and you have pretty strong data.

But what's facts? Pithy things. Now gemJEWEL like wonders? Those we can invest in safely!

In the grim darkness of the medium term future, Space Marines are currency?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, everybody harps on GW for not talking to its customer base, but what would you answer if you did?

"We want to pay less money and we want versions of the rules that make our existing model collections better so we don't have to buy new stuff."

Not really, no.

I mean, yes, I'd like to pay less... But other than the prices of codexes and the 1990's currency exchange rate that they've been using here in Oz for the last decade and haven't fully flushed out of their model price range yet, I don't have a problem with GW's prices. And I want to buy new stuff.

The problem is that the current state of the 40K rules leaves me with no inclination to do so.


So what I would be saying if they were listening is 'Get your gak together'.


The moment GW turns 40K back into a playable game, I'll go back to buying stuff.

The reality is that people get older and their priorities change. For a lot of people, that means abandoning the game. I didn't play it for like ten years between when I gave it up and when I started my project log.

There's only so much money you can get out of existing customers, because again, it's a purchase you can finish, and an individual product line can only get so deep.

None of which changes the fact that you lose existing customers faster if you treat them like gak.

These customers wanting to give GW money don't actually exist. There are just a bunch of people who think they represent some untapped profit potential. See: SIsters of Battle fans, lol.

Speaking as someone who wants to give GW money, I would disagree with this statement.

Their customer service practices up until recently are unfortunate. And yes, their prices are bogus. I've invested heavily into Warmachine these days because PP, while expensive like GW, offers a better ROI. I have the entirety of the games rules, which are thoroughly tested and groomed, for $60 for life. No burdensome bloated tome that I must tote. Just my phone or iPad. New scenarios are free, new game types are free... GW, for being a "model" company, sure does charge a lot for their rules.

So here's another person who would have happily bought a complete Tau army, Blood Angels, and kept and completed my Eldar had the game not been both hot street trash full of random or wishy-washy rules and entirely overpriced quantity for the content, let alone quality, I received. I no longer play "is this unit good or not" roulette, I don't dread book updates, and I have a lot less rules conflicts so I can get proper frustrated over learning the game versus piss poor technical writing.

But hey, higher MSRP inflated the used market when I bailed so I got most of my money back!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Whenever people express interest in my models and want to get started in miniature wargaming themselves, I always advise them to stay well clear of GW and first consider the alternatives because GW is really crap value for money, unless they really really like the models/games. In which case I tell them how to save money by buying 2nd hand on ebay, or retailers that give discounts. Its not about bashing GW, its about giving my friends, and prospective hobbyists, good advice.

And here's my point in a nutshell.

GW is not significantly worse "value for money" than any other retailer out there.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that.

Gripping Beast plastic Saxons or Vikings...

£22 for 44 miniatures. 50p each.

I have a box of these on my WIP shelf, and I'm getting a box of the unarmoured Dark Age Warriors for christmas. Excellent value IMO, lots of multipart options and pose ability. Good detail, perhaps not as good as the very best of GW's newest Hobbit range, but excellent for the price you pay. I use the extra weapons and shields to convert my LOTR/Hobbit figures.

GW Warriors of Minas Tirith. (Typical LOTR plastic figure)...

£15 for 12 miniatures. £1.25 each.

Limited variety of poses. No multipart options for pose ability (though a few kits like Warg Riders have extra bits), unless you count arms that come separate for molding reasons and typically have to be glued on to the correct miniature. Good detail, but very noticeable undercuts, more so than my Saxons. No extra weapons.

GW Hunter Orcs (typical Hobbit plastic figure)...

£20 for 12 miniatures. £1.67 each.

Limited variety of poses. No multipart options. No extra weapons or bits (though some others kits do, like Rivindell Knights). Good detail, but again big undercuts and sometimes utterly bizarre sprue arrangements (the Rivindell knights have a head piece that comes in two separate piece with a great big seam across the face).

Really not seeing the value.

But they do have a flourishing alternative market in second hand figures for prospective entry level players.

Really? Out of my entire post, thats all you comment on? Theres not just a flourishing market in second hand figures. Theres a flourishing market of Gamesworkshops competitors.

and their falling revenue and profits suggests they aren't fulfilling the second

Without looking at the bigger picture, you can't say that. Well, i guess you can. You just did. But it isn't a fact. It's just a guess.

No its not. Its an inference, made from observing the declining sales and revenue reported every year in GW's own reports. GW is selling less, and raising prices to make up the shortfall. And it's profits are still falling.

insaniak wrote:

I mean, yes, I'd like to pay less... But other than the prices of codexes and the 1990's currency exchange rate that they've been using here in Oz for the last decade and haven't fully flushed out of their model price range yet, I don't have a problem with GW's prices. And I want to buy new stuff.

The problem is that the current state of the 40K rules leaves me with no inclination to do so.


So what I would be saying if they were listening is 'Get your gak together'.


The moment GW turns 40K back into a playable game, I'll go back to buying stuff.

this. I'm happy to pay extra for quality, but the game rules are not quality. "Forge the narrative" doesn't cut it.

TheKbob wrote:So here's another person who would have happily bought a complete Tau army, Blood Angels, and kept and completed my Eldar had the game not been both hot street trash full of random or wishy-washy rules and entirely overpriced quantity for the content, let alone quality, I received. I no longer play "is this unit good or not" roulette, I don't dread book updates, and I have a lot less rules conflicts so I can get proper frustrated over learning the game versus piss poor technical writing.

But hey, higher MSRP inflated the used market when I bailed so I got most of my money back!

and this. People can speculate till the cows come home, the financial reports for the last several years have painted a pretty thorough picture of what's going on. That new armagedon computer game won't hit the right audience needed to bring in the money to deflect attention away from their core business.

Ok, let's assume GW only wants a certain customer base. How do they know they are attracting their preferred customer base and keeping their preferred customer base invested in their brand without market research? They don't have celebrities showing off their product on the red carpet and in magazines like LV. If your company is successful and everything you produce is selling like hot cakes, your revenue is up, profit is up, then maybe market research isn't necessary because what you're doing is working. When revenue and profits are trending down for 10 years and the competition is trending up and growing at a record pace, you should probably find out why that's happening. It doesn't really matter what kind of customers you want, you need to find out why you aren't getting them. People love using the ebay excuse for their downfall. I've been getting stuff on ebay since middle school. I'm 26 years old. There were plenty of 40k models on ebay during the GW boom. If there is an influx of 40k armies on ebay, that goes back to not keeping existing customers happy. How do you figure out how to keep them happy? Market research. It doesn't take a fancy degree or experience as a CEO of a multi million dollar international company to figure this out.

insaniak wrote:

These customers wanting to give GW money don't actually exist. There are just a bunch of people who think they represent some untapped profit potential. See: SIsters of Battle fans, lol.

Speaking as someone who wants to give GW money, I would disagree with this statement.

I know a lot of people with $100+ a month going into gaming that don't give any of it to GW. And they all used to give all of it to GW. They all tend to say very similar things about why they no longer spend it on GW products. Usually it's game play and value issues.

This idea that all these people represent some sort of illusory demand who think their money would add up but really wouldn't is just silly. The flourishing of numerous smaller competitors shows that there is unmet demand in the market place. All while GW's revenues and profits slide. Games are booming right now. Board games are making a huge comeback. Magic has never been pulling in more money than it is now. The internet lets potential customers connect with suppliers on the other side of the planet. There's never been more variety in hard plastic kits that are available (not to mention metal and resin and awful PVC).

In an environment where gaming is on the upswing, GW should be rolling in cash. They should be able to leverage their established design and manufacturing infrastructure to dominate the market. They outright own the type of plastic production other people have to outsource to in order to access. Their marginal cost of the a given sprue is tiny relative to their design cost and the capital for their equipment-- but that's already bought and paid for.

GW should be crushing it in the current environment.

Toofast wrote:Ok, let's assume GW only wants a certain customer base. How do they know they are attracting their preferred customer base and keeping their preferred customer base invested in their brand without market research? [...] How do you figure out how to keep them happy? Market research. It doesn't take a fancy degree or experience as a CEO of a multi million dollar international company to figure this out.

GW doesn't want to participate in the larger market. They want a segmented, ignorant customer base that they can tell what to buy. Yep, in the information age, they want segmentation and ignorance. I think the reports from ex-employees that GW largely holds their customers in contempt is likely accurate. Ask them what they want? Surely you jest. We'll tell those ignorant plebs what to want.

I've got plenty of disposable income that goes to other companies but don't give a single penny to GW as their rules are utter garbage and don't support any specialist games any more.

 frozenwastes wrote:
This idea that all these people represent some sort of illusory demand who think their money would add up but really wouldn't is just silly.

I try to keep a more open mind when considering these things. At the end of the day, we don't really know. I have lots of friends over the years who have quit for various reasons... however I think even if GW cleaned up their ways, most of them probably wouldn't rejoin because they've simply moved on with their lives and don't spend the time on gaming any more. There is also the possibility that GW are approaching market saturation where most nerds who might be interested in 40k already know about it and have decided they don't want to do it or already have an army so even if GW fixed themselves they might get many more sales as people already have established armies. The same saturation may not have hit other games yet which are mostly much smaller player bases.

But yeah, my point is that it's not always easy to predict. Just because gaming is on an upswing doesn't necessarily mean GW can benefit from it... especially if the upswing is from players that have already played GW games and are now moving to other games rather than new players.

 frozenwastes wrote:
They want a segmented, ignorant customer base that they can tell what to buy.

Yep, in the information age, they want segmentation and ignorance.

I think the reports from ex-employees that GW largely holds their customers in contempt is likely accurate. Ask them what they want? Surely you jest. We'll tell those ignorant plebs what to want.

This, unfortunately, rings all too true.

We've seen this attitude on too many levels (and alluded to in a Court case, FFS ) for it to be just a "perception".

Now, I'd say it's coming back to bite them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I have lots of friends over the years who have quit for various reasons...

Here the thing: Whatever the reason is, the result is GW not getting their money. The only one with responsibility (and likely the resources) to figure that out is GW. The gaming boom that's been going on the quite a few years shows that there is money out there that GW is not getting.

GW doesn't want to figure this out. They think it's unnecessary because they think they have a core customer base of true believers/chumps who will just keep buying and that market research beyond that is unnecessary. The numbers don't support this. Revenues and operating profits are down. After years of hawkish cost cutting. They do massive restructuring and close entire national divisions and now that it's all paid for they should be reaping the rewards of a lower cost of operations. And operating profits are still down.

GW has everything it needs in order to succeed in terms of manufacturing infrastructure. And the capital put in has already been paid back by past sales. If they could even muster up the tiniest sliver of desire to know what the larger industry wants, they'd be optimally positioned to flourish in the current environment.

It's entirely possible that GW has permanently destroyed the demand for their product and people spending money elsewhere will never, ever come back. That's not a rosier picture.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Padre wrote:
We've seen this attitude on too many levels (and alluded to in a Court case, FFS ) for it to be just a "perception".

When you put someone from the company on the stand and they say under oath that the hobby is purchasing Games Workshop products, something is very, very wrong. And when they did advertise a customer experience analysis position, the position was for the experience of "purchasing our wonderful miniatures." Customer Experience Management is about all experiences of the customer during the entire time they have a relationship with your company. This includes every experience of the product itself as a product can be thought of as a bundle of experiences. But nope, GW just wants to concentrate on the customer experience of getting sold.

Probably the biggest demonstration of contempt for their customers was the release of a new rules set after only 23 months and the new rules were largely just a copy paste job from the last rules with a new psychic phase, some random missions and new "unbound" rules so anyone can be sold the new release when the GW employee greets them at the store. Splitting codexes/army books into supplements and day one DLC so they have to make multiple purchases to have the rules for their army is pretty contemptuous as well.

When you look at the type of stuff a small startup can make with a few hundred thousand in kickstarter money, imagine what GW could do if they took a few million that would have been paid out in dividends and started a future growth division where they looked at the larger market, figured out a demand and then met it with their plastic injection moulding and kit design infrastructure. If they embraced the larger hobby, game and toy distribution and made a product (or series) that could be sold on its own merits rather than relying on the (fading) strength of GW's segmented market sales machine.

.

 frozenwastes wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I have lots of friends over the years who have quit for various reasons...

Here the thing: Whatever the reason is, the result is GW not getting their money. The only one with responsibility (and likely the resources) to figure that out is GW. The gaming boom that's been going on the quite a few years shows that there is money out there that GW is not getting.

GW doesn't want to figure this out. They think it's unnecessary because they think they have a core customer base of true believers/chumps who will just keep buying and that market research beyond that is unnecessary. The numbers don't support this. Revenues and operating profits are down. After years of hawkish cost cutting. They do massive restructuring and close entire national divisions and now that it's all paid for they should be reaping the rewards of a lower cost of operations. And operating profits are still down.

GW has everything it needs in order to succeed in terms of manufacturing infrastructure. And the capital put in has already been paid back by past sales. If they could even muster up the tiniest sliver of desire to know what the larger industry wants, they'd be optimally positioned to flourish in the current environment.

It's entirely possible that GW has permanently destroyed the demand for their product and people spending money elsewhere will never, ever come back. That's not a rosier picture. .

I definitely don't think GW are doing the right thing, but thinking they can actually turn it around is still just speculation. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they fixed the rules and stopped increasing prices that their sales still wouldn't recover.

GW were the big boys and now customers are branching out... I don't think GW are managing it well, but at the same time I do think it's also part of a natural progression that gamers are simply moving on.

If GW changed their ways and produced decent rules I'd probably buy them... but I can't say that I'd really buy as much as I ever did in the past because my collection (and unpainted collection) is huge and there's other games to play now anyway.

While I don't think GW are doing things well... I also don't think there's some massive untapped potential that GW could catch even if they started producing better rules and stopped price increases.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I definitely don't think GW are doing the right thing, but thinking they can actually turn it around is still just speculation. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they fixed the rules and stopped increasing prices that their sales still wouldn't recover.

GW were the big boys and now customers are branching out... I don't think GW are managing it well, but at the same time I do think it's also part of a natural progression that gamers are simply moving on.

If GW changed their ways and produced decent rules I'd probably buy them... but I can't say that I'd really buy as much as I ever did in the past because my collection (and unpainted collection) is huge and there's other games to play now anyway.

While I don't think GW are doing things well... I also don't think there's some massive untapped potential that GW could catch even if they started producing better rules and stopped price increases.

Wow that's grim. And I have an avatar of a frozen corpse.

My own thinking is that GW's growth and expansion into an international company was largely the result of demographics. The children of the baby boomers were growing up just as GW was making bright and accessible products available through retailers around the world.

Then when those who were teens in the 90s grew up, they had a fresh injection of revenue from LOTR fans and the massive success of their marketing partner DeAgostini with Battle Games In Middle Earth. While LOTR did alright in North America, DeAgostini's success in promoting their products in Europe was shockingly successful. The magazine got extended twice and when it was finally winded down, key people were recruited for White Dwarf (though I think they are largely gone now).

Ever since that boom faded, GW has been in a state of massive cost cutting, price increases and a slow decline of revenue and sales volume. And now it's like they have no plan to return to growth, do any marketing or even learn what the market might want.

But then add to it the idea that there is nothing they can do. That's just grim.

I also don't think it's reality as other companies are managing to develop products people want. Why can't GW reallocate some dividend money on a division that does that exact same thing? Develop a product that can be marketed to the larger gaming and hobby/toy market using their existing design and manufacturing set up? Spend some retained earnings on a marketing campaign. Maybe "Battle Games in the Old World" or "Battle Games in the Dark Millennium" or something.

Maybe revamping 40k and WFB over and over is doomed to fail, but surely there must be something GW can do to get new customers, get customers back and return to growth? Or at the very least, stop shrinking? Anything?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There is also the possibility that GW are approaching market saturation where most nerds who might be interested in 40k already know about it and have decided they don't want to do it or already have an army so even if GW fixed themselves they might get many more sales as people already have established armies. The same saturation may not have hit other games yet which are mostly much smaller player bases.

As if anyone ever stops with one complete army.

For the games I currently play, I've got 2/3 growing factions each, with the exception of X-Wing (because there's only 2 factions at current and my opponent has the other) and WHF/40K because I didn't want to sell them all off.

Sure, people will move away, but some of them will come back. Apparently lots of ex-GW players went into stores when they heard Space Hulk was re-launched, only to be turned away because it was no longer available. So they've got potential to bring people back, they just always seem to mess up the execution.

Herzlos wrote:
As if anyone ever stops with one complete army.

I think a lot of GW's sales go to people who don't even own a single army

Maybe it's just my area, but most people I know from GW's heyday only had 1 40k army and 1 WHFB army in various states of completion.

I think the forums are more representative of the freaks who go out and buy multiple armies I feel most people get half way through 1 army before they realise the incredible time and money investment before you even get to the point of playing a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I definitely don't think GW are doing the right thing, but thinking they can actually turn it around is still just speculation. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they fixed the rules and stopped increasing prices that their sales still wouldn't recover.

GW were the big boys and now customers are branching out... I don't think GW are managing it well, but at the same time I do think it's also part of a natural progression that gamers are simply moving on.

If GW changed their ways and produced decent rules I'd probably buy them... but I can't say that I'd really buy as much as I ever did in the past because my collection (and unpainted collection) is huge and there's other games to play now anyway.

While I don't think GW are doing things well... I also don't think there's some massive untapped potential that GW could catch even if they started producing better rules and stopped price increases.

Wow that's grim. And I have an avatar of a frozen corpse.

My own thinking is that GW's growth and expansion into an international company was largely the result of demographics. The children of the baby boomers were growing up just as GW was making bright and accessible products available through retailers around the world.

Then when those who were teens in the 90s grew up, they had a fresh injection of revenue from LOTR fans and the massive success of their marketing partner DeAgostini with Battle Games In Middle Earth. While LOTR did alright in North America, DeAgostini's success in promoting their products in Europe was shockingly successful. The magazine got extended twice and when it was finally winded down, key people were recruited for White Dwarf (though I think they are largely gone now).

Ever since that boom faded, GW has been in a state of massive cost cutting, price increases and a slow decline of revenue and sales volume. And now it's like they have no plan to return to growth, do any marketing or even learn what the market might want.

But then add to it the idea that there is nothing they can do. That's just grim.

I also don't think it's reality as other companies are managing to develop products people want. Why can't GW reallocate some dividend money on a division that does that exact same thing? Develop a product that can be marketed to the larger gaming and hobby/toy market using their existing design and manufacturing set up? Spend some retained earnings on a marketing campaign. Maybe "Battle Games in the Old World" or "Battle Games in the Dark Millennium" or something.

Maybe revamping 40k and WFB over and over is doomed to fail, but surely there must be something GW can do to get new customers, get customers back and return to growth? Or at the very least, stop shrinking? Anything?

I guess I'm not quite THAT grim... I do think GW could still do well, but I tend to think 40k is going to be a shrinking market before it can be an expanding one like it has in years gone by. I'm not really sure what they can do with WHFB any more, if End Times doesn't bring in more sales it will be grim, but I think GW have shot themselves in the foot by making WHFB a game that encourages such huge armies because it creates a huge barrier to starting a new army far beyond 40k.

I do think GW should start expanding to new games instead of trying to milk 40k for all it's worth, but it's a much more competitive market now than it was in the days of Epic and it seems the most recent Epic didn't do well enough for them to want to try it again.

I agree. I don't believe for a second that the market is saturated (which is a claim GW has made in the past). Products like washing machines and fridges struggle with market saturation, because who the hell wants a squad of washing machines? Most people don't have the space or the requirement to get more than one.

Miniatures are completely different. They are a hobby in themselves. People will keep buying them just for the fun of building and painting them. A lot of people would be happy to keep collecting and turning their armies into larger and larger formations (company-chapter-legion etc..). And why stop at one army? Or even one game?

What puts people off is the cost. Having miniatures already is not an issue.

 Smacks wrote:
I agree. I don't believe for a second that the market is saturated (which is a claim GW has made in the past). Products like washing machines and fridges struggle with market saturation, because who the hell wants a squad of washing machines? Most people don't have the space or the requirement to get more than one.

Miniatures are completely different. They are a hobby in themselves. People will keep buying them just for the fun of building and painting them. A lot of people would be happy to keep collecting and turning their armies into larger and larger formations (company-chapter-legion etc..). And why stop at one army? Or even one game?

What puts people off is the cost. Having miniatures already is not an issue.

I think you're looking at it from the mindset of an enthusiast more than a core player. Having an army and wanting to start another one is another few hundred hours investment, hundreds of dollars, takes up more space in your house, and why buy another 40k army when you can buy in to a different game to expand your experience?

I'm not denying there are enthusiasts who buy multiple armies, nor am I denying that some people would come back and buy some product if GW fixed their rules and pricing... I simply question whether those people are actually going to make a significant difference to GW's profit and revenue.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're looking at it from the mindset of an enthusiast more than a core player. Having an army and wanting to start another one is another few hundred hours investment, hundreds of dollars, takes up more space in your house, and why buy another 40k army when you can buy in to a different game to expand your experience?

That is all true, but I think it is the "hundreds of dollars" that is the main obstacle. Work time and space are only really issues if you're buying a whole 2000 point army at once. And also work time can be fun time.

I don't believe there is anyone who hasn't seen at least one unit from another race that they'd like to build/paint. Core player or not. That can lead to an allied force, then a small army, then a 2nd army and so on. But with prices how they are, a lot of people consciously stop themselves from going down that path. And people are less able to justify buying an expensive unit that doesn't fit their army. Cost is certainly the enemy of 'impulse' buying.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I guess I'm not quite THAT grim... I do think GW could still do well, but I tend to think 40k is going to be a shrinking market before it can be an expanding one like it has in years gone by.

I think the product experience needs to be revamped. The current approach isn't working. It's just sort of in a holding pattern and slowly stagnating as far as sales volumes and revenue/profit are concerned.

The approach at GW HQ seems to be "Our miniatures are awesome and there can never be anything wrong with out product, so don't even think it needs to change. And say it out loud? You don't have the right attitude to keep working here do you?" So I don't think they're going to get someone seriously able to rethink the customer's experience of the product from the ground up any time soon.

I'm not really sure what they can do with WHFB any more, if End Times doesn't bring in more sales it will be grim, but I think GW have shot themselves in the foot by making WHFB a game that encourages such huge armies because it creates a huge barrier to starting a new army far beyond 40k.

Something like the game size of 5th edition but with the hero hammer turned down a few notches could make for a very successful game. Where if you buy a 10 man unit of witch elves, you're like "This is awesome!!" and not "I guess I need more boxes for it to be viable." Or if you get a box of empire and it's not "well, I just built and painted a twentieth of my army..." They need rules that don't actually make your miniatures feel less valuable/useful. People want their miniatures to be awesome, not pointless.

I do think GW should start expanding to new games instead of trying to milk 40k for all it's worth, but it's a much more competitive market now than it was in the days of Epic and it seems the most recent Epic didn't do well enough for them to want to try it again.

I think they need a completely new approach to 40k itself. One of 40k's strengths as a product is the army structure/force-org chart provided a clear direction for collection. Now they just seem to have confused it all with unbound and detachments and needing multiple volumes to get the rules for your army. It just seems like a big mess meant to allow the local GW employee to sell everyone every model they release. The model count of 40k during GW's largest period of growth was a bit bigger than what Warmachine and Bolt Action are going with. They should return to that, but again, cut down the hero hammer and take a more modern approach to customization like X-Wing has with its different upgrade types.

If GW's current approach to their products worked, it would have helped them capture all the recent growth in the market rather than have their market share be given away to competitors.

There is one big problem with everything in this post though. It has this implied approach that the game experience matters. GW seems to have decided that it doesn't, except in a sort of "have some fun and the rules don't matter! pew! pew! yah!" kind of way. GW sees themselves as a company that sells miniatures to collectors who will pay whatever they ask and buy what they are told. Someone with an approach like that is never, ever going to rethink things in terms of customer experience of the product. What the customer might want? That's "otiose" according to Kirby.

So from here GW keeps slowly stagnating. Paying out all their cash in dividends and maintain a policy of only investing back in the company when it can save them money, but not for revenue growth. As they keep adjusting trade terms and moving more products to direct only, GW's customer base will shrink in areas reliant on trade sales and become more and more segmented and ignorant of the larger gaming market. Trade sales took a big hit in the last couple reports and then they announced they would no longer be providing that breakdown by sales channel in future reports.

---

Another thing that's hurting them is their GW store policies. Here's some things that just don't make any sense.

1. 4 times a year, the company spends $500k sending every north American full time employee to retail workshop. Why not have 1 a year? The other 3 could be youtube videos, then have each manager write a few paragraphs summarizing the video, what they learned and how to implement that on a store level. Use the extra $1.5M a year to pay part time employees so you can keep the stores open 7 days a week and longer hours each day.

2. They tell the managers throw away black library books and kits that get a re box. However, the smart and underpaid managers take the products out to their car instead of the dumpster and sell the stuff on ebay. Why don't they have a sale/clearance table with 25% off, then 50% after 30 days on the table? This would get them some money back for the product and not result in things going on ebay that directly compete with their products in the stores.

3. They tell the managers from the moment they're hired that they basically have 3-6 months to hit the numbers or they will be replaced. This causes managers to use hard sell tactics which pushes more customers away. It also causes them to look for better, more stable jobs as soon as they think they won't hit the numbers.

4. Every store has the same target number to hit, $140,000 a year. A store in Hoover, AL population 80,000 people has the same goal as a store in LA where Robin Williams and Vin Diesel would walk in and buy up the whole store. This makes no sense and gives managers at large market stores a free pass while punishing managers of smaller market stores. Stores have different rent, overhead, and customer bases yet they're all expected to do the same $140k a year in sales. Calling this stupid and asinine would be putting it mildly.

5. After a manager puts in their 2 week notice, they still get their 50% off discount. This leads to outgoing managers throwing "half off parties" for their customers and selling $10-25k in product all at 50% off during their last days at the store. Then the new manager has to come in and try to make sales when all the regular customers just spent 6 months worth of hobby money to take advantage of the half off party. The next year, you have numbers to beat that absolutely ridiculous because of the 50% off party. A GW I know of was averaging $2,800 a week in sales. In 2 days it did over $7,500 (which was $13,000 in product if purchased at normal retail price). Next year, the numbers for that week/month/quarter are going to be skewed because of the huge surge in sales. When you ask a trainer about it, they say that happens everywhere when a manager quits and it's just an excuse for why the store isn't making the numbers.

TLR GW is clueless when it comes to running a retail operation. My 6 year old niece whose only business experience is a $.50 lemonade stand could probably do a more competent job running GW north America retail than they're doing right now.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But they do have a flourishing alternative market in second hand figures for prospective entry level players.

Really? Out of my entire post, thats all you comment on? Theres not just a flourishing market in second hand figures. Theres a flourishing market of Gamesworkshops competitors.

It's this common failure to understand the significance that I'm pointing out.

I'm not saying that Games Workshop has been right and you guys are wrong.

I'm saying that Games Workshop hasn't been right, but most of the time, the business analysis done on this forum (and others like it) is also wrong, lol.

People are thinking of small solutions to big problems. And applying "What I would do" or "What I want to do" to the solution is definitely not a good way to approach it. When we're talking about 125 million British squigglies worth of revenue coming from ~40-50 British squiggly products, there's a lot broader set of target segments that you have to reach. I'm guessing your little "$60 for life" company isn't making anywhere near that on a yearly basis.

I fully believe the strategy they've had to manipulate the rules to push new product has been poorly conceived, because they've backed themselves into a corner. They probably should have aimed to lower the barriers to entry to promote diversification, but I haven't seen their sales data and analysis. Either way, it looks like a slow death spiral, and I'm guessing that people at GW have realized that the miniatures game has no long term viability. However, in the short term, it's still pushing a monstrous amount of revenue so it isn't like it's an unpleasant ride down the toilet.

Everything at this point is a loss, and everything they do will generate a complaint. You guys say GW isn't listening, but the reality is you're not the only voice out there. Go to General Discussion. See if you can find a General Consensus that isn't simplified down to "The rules suck!" What is it that people like and don't like? Oh wait, it's not the same things. Some people like Superheavies, some people hate them. Some people like flyers, some people don't. It goes on and on.

So some of you say "Fix the rules!" What does that even mean? Not everyone will ever be happy about 40K, no matter what it looks like.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
As if anyone ever stops with one complete army.

I think a lot of GW's sales go to people who don't even own a single army

Maybe it's just my area, but most people I know from GW's heyday only had 1 40k army and 1 WHFB army in various states of completion.

I think the forums are more representative of the freaks who go out and buy multiple armies

Exactly. Again why using anecdotal evidence, especially your own experience, is never a good idea. This forum is a minority of a minority. I'd bet the vast majority of GW's sales go to people who own one or fewer 2000 point armies.

But I also agree there's no "fixing" it. 40K will eventually die under the GW banner, and the new owners of the license, whoever that is, will make money off licensing.

They don't have to keep every single person happy, they just have to keep most people happy, and garner enough enthusiasm from a percentage of those happy people to make them want to recruit more players.

Just because you can't make a perfect product for everyone, that's no reason not to try to, and likely make a much better product for many in the process.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Everything at this point is a loss, and everything they do will generate a complaint. You guys say GW isn't listening, but the reality is you're not the only voice out there. Go to General Discussion. See if you can find a General Consensus that isn't simplified down to "The rules suck!" What is it that people like and don't like? Oh wait, it's not the same things. Some people like Superheavies, some people hate them. Some people like flyers, some people don't. It goes on and on.

So some of you say "Fix the rules!" What does that even mean? Not everyone will ever be happy about 40K, no matter what it looks like.

I'm going to pick at this point, as I have no real issues with anything else you've said.

GW isn't listening to anyone. It doesn't matter what conflicts happen in the voices on forums, because most of those conflicts are in the details and either unsubstantiated or poorly argued points worth ignoring, or mired in such minor minutiae as to not be worth anyone's time to read.

What they should be listening to are the macro issues, which requires some extrapolation, interpretation, and clever navigation. There are universal things they could improve upon that people complain about on the forums regularly. I've illustrated a few issues they could improve upon that would generate no more negative goodwill than already exists.

Basic things like communication channels; proper facebook, twitter accounts, previews, schedules, plans, informing the players of upcoming changes that may affect their armies, explanations about such changes, hell, just some basic transparency into the studio would be universally welcome. Just a look at how FW runs things would be a step in the right directions.

Pricing is another thing, or rather value. Constant price increases whenever a new box is released, or new kit isn't making any friends among the gamers. However, things like their discount box sets are well received. More boxes like that for a variety of factions and kits would be hugely appreciated. Not to mention ensuring every kit has all the options necessary to make any legal configuration offered by the rules for WYSIWYG. This also goes for rules. Supplements are a good idea in theory, but at $60 for two pages of crunch gets pretty insulting. Codices are getting stripped down of content which is being resold in chunks for even more money; there's no reason not to include everything you need to play your army in a single, reasonably priced book.

Quality of the rules is harder to nail down, and where a lot of discussions get bogged down in the details and conflicting interests. Some people love giant stompy death robots; others prefer a handful of lone, elite assassins. Making a game that perfectly caters to both those extremes is likely incredibly difficult. However, there are plenty of design options that could do just that. The solution would be to engage with the community through a beta development team and open feedback. Testing the game to work out the silly rules that don't work; the obvious balance issues with lemon units; the poor and vague wording; the inconsistencies and bloat; all of that could be easily fixed, which would make the game universally better for all regardless of their preference for giant death robots or small scale elite operations. There is absolutely no reason why the rules couldn't be clear, concise, and ensure that no unit is so blatantly overpowered or hilariously underpowered. None.

Finally, they had a great lineup of specialist games they've thrown away. Its amusing to watch smaller companies fill the gaps with similar games, and just looks like wasted money on GW's part. Not to mention the intangibles, like customer goodwill when they stopped supporting those games; which all had pretty solid rules.

In short, when you see someone say 'Fix the rules', don't dismiss it because it'd be too hard to make someone happy who loves giant death robots with someone who hates them, understand that there is plenty about the rules that can be fixed to drastically improve the quality, value, and playability of the game.

Its nothing short if impossible to perfectly please everyone in every possible way, but no one reasonably expects that. What people expect is effort.

We're not getting that. And that's why people are not buying.

*Edit* My backing/proof/reasoning is that many successful and growing miniature companies do most/all of those things above to some or to the fullest extent I briefly discussed.

And yes, I'm aware these companies are all much smaller then what GW turns over. The point is that GW is throwing away money when they could be the biggest fish in a pond with no other fish, rather then a large fish in an expanding pond surrounded by small, but thriving fish.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But they do have a flourishing alternative market in second hand figures for prospective entry level players.

Really? Out of my entire post, thats all you comment on? Theres not just a flourishing market in second hand figures. Theres a flourishing market of Gamesworkshops competitors.

It's this common failure to understand the significance that I'm pointing out.

I'm not saying that Games Workshop has been right and you guys are wrong.

I'm saying that Games Workshop hasn't been right, but most of the time, the business analysis done on this forum (and others like it) is also wrong, lol.

So you're saying that your analysis could in fact be wrong, and everyone else is actually right?!?

 Toofast wrote:
Another thing that's hurting them is their GW store policies. Here's some things that just don't make any sense.

1. 4 times a year, the company spends $500k sending every north American full time employee to retail workshop. Why not have 1 a year? The other 3 could be youtube videos, then have each manager write a few paragraphs summarizing the video, what they learned and how to implement that on a store level. Use the extra $1.5M a year to pay part time employees so you can keep the stores open 7 days a week and longer hours each day.

2. They tell the managers throw away black library books and kits that get a re box. However, the smart and underpaid managers take the products out to their car instead of the dumpster and sell the stuff on ebay. Why don't they have a sale/clearance table with 25% off, then 50% after 30 days on the table? This would get them some money back for the product and not result in things going on ebay that directly compete with their products in the stores.

3. They tell the managers from the moment they're hired that they basically have 3-6 months to hit the numbers or they will be replaced. This causes managers to use hard sell tactics which pushes more customers away. It also causes them to look for better, more stable jobs as soon as they think they won't hit the numbers.

4. Every store has the same target number to hit, $140,000 a year. A store in Hoover, AL population 80,000 people has the same goal as a store in LA where Robin Williams and Vin Diesel would walk in and buy up the whole store. This makes no sense and gives managers at large market stores a free pass while punishing managers of smaller market stores. Stores have different rent, overhead, and customer bases yet they're all expected to do the same $140k a year in sales. Calling this stupid and asinine would be putting it mildly.

5. After a manager puts in their 2 week notice, they still get their 50% off discount. This leads to outgoing managers throwing "half off parties" for their customers and selling $10-25k in product all at 50% off during their last days at the store. Then the new manager has to come in and try to make sales when all the regular customers just spent 6 months worth of hobby money to take advantage of the half off party. The next year, you have numbers to beat that absolutely ridiculous because of the 50% off party. A GW I know of was averaging $2,800 a week in sales. In 2 days it did over $7,500 (which was $13,000 in product if purchased at normal retail price). Next year, the numbers for that week/month/quarter are going to be skewed because of the huge surge in sales. When you ask a trainer about it, they say that happens everywhere when a manager quits and it's just an excuse for why the store isn't making the numbers.

TLR GW is clueless when it comes to running a retail operation. My 6 year old niece whose only business experience is a $.50 lemonade stand could probably do a more competent job running GW north America retail than they're doing right now.

Man, if even half that stuff is true that is pretty damning.

Well they can't be that clueless. GW have been running retail shops for 35 years.

They hire on attitude, not abililty, so I wouldn't be surprised that they still can't run a retail chain after 35 years experience.

 Toofast wrote:

2. They tell the managers throw away black library books and kits that get a re box. However, the smart and underpaid managers take the products out to their car instead of the dumpster and sell the stuff on ebay. Why don't they have a sale/clearance table with 25% off, then 50% after 30 days on the table? This would get them some money back for the product and not result in things going on ebay that directly compete with their products in the stores.

They seem to be obsessed with the idea that discounts devalues the products. It might make sense for Gucci to destroy last years bags rather than sell them at a discount, because they are a high end designer label and exclusivity is the appeal, purchased by people who don't need to worry about the price. But it doesn't for GW, who make plastic toys and supporting rules that almost anyone can afford and provide no indication of status. If you want to impress the girls, you drive a Lamborghini or wear a $15,000 rolex, you don't rock up with your Imperial Knight army.

I can get why they don't run regular sales; it causes people to wait for the next sale, but what's even more bizarre is that they won't even discount obsolete or end of line stuff, like 6th Ed rule books were at full price until they went off the shelf and got destroyed, whereas in the past they'd have clearance bins of old edition books.
Same with repacks and remoulds. The old stuff isn't directly competing with the new stuff anymore.

The numbers all prove that any sale is pretty popular, but I don't think they can see past the "luxury" branding.


The rest of the points sound just awful enough to be believed.